Should there be a refrendum regarding Durand Line?

[Shapur]

I don't believe the military oligarchy in Pakistan and other elites are smart courageous enough to change their strategy.

If Pakistan abandons its south Asian thuggery strategy, maybe Pakistan and India will finally make lasting peace. If both countries improve their ties and cooperate, it will relieve Afghanistan of allot of tension. Then, maybe Afghanistan and Pakistan reach some sort of mutually beneficial settlement.

I tried to discuss this in another thread but people hijacked it for cheap shouting and cursing contest.

So far the only Pakistani politician I know who wants to resolve the issues with India for the mututal benifit of the whole region is Imran Khan. He is quite pragmatic and gives clear answers as to how Pakistan and India can resolve their differences for lasting peace and prosperity of the whole region. The Pakistani military industrial complex is not interested in resolving the issues with India because peace means no more high spending on military budget and no more bogeyman India to protect the Pakistani people from. Pakistani military elite is the source of alot of problems in the region and it needs to be brought under control to really serve the people of Pakistan rather than hold Pakistanis to ransom and play double games with the neighbours and extracting money from China and USA for their own benifit. Hopefully some Pakistanis will wake up from their ghazwa e hind fantasies and realise its their own military who is the cause of most problems. ofcourse India is no saint and does interfere in the neighbouring countries but India has alot more to lose than others if thers is no so I am sure India can be brought to the negotiating table if the Kashmir issue can be resolved.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

True, Kashmir is Pakistani military industrial complex' raison d'être

[tilla_jogian]

Not happening, as others said if given choice non-kabuli afghani pashtuns may opt for Pakistan in decade or two. But this will likely never happen.

[Samandri]

Many Pashtuns in Pakistan still complain about the fact that Amir Abdurrahman Khan signed the treaty and in their interpretation sold them to the British. Pakistani establishment also tries to use this against Pashtun unity by telling Pashtuns in Pakistan, look your brothers betrayed you and unfortunately those not familiar with Pashtun history will buy into this trick.
Ofcourse that is not what happenex, Pashtuns are not a commodity to be bought and sold.Tell Pashtuns Pashtuns in Pakistan that they were sold and they will give you a good slap. The fact is Durand line was signed without the consent of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan so we can't really blame each other and to this day the boundry doesn't really mean anything to the tribes living along the border.

Why should referendum be held in Afghanistan? The land belongs to the people who live there, it is there right to decide for themselves. I am not against a refrendum in Afghanistan though but they don't live there.

Brother Shahpur, most Pashtuns in Pakistan are not even aware what is Durand line treaty and who is Amir Abdul Rehman. Those who are aware of some details , do no complain from Afghanistan that they were "sold" like commodity or any thing like that. You must have read this type of material on web. Pakistani bosses do not tell us such thing, they dont want to tell us any thing Pashtun-ic at all , our attention is diverted to Hindustani history by them.


I have not conducted surveys or any thing like that so i am not an authority to speak on behalf of pakistani Pashtuns. I have come across diverse views on this topic. I will only share my personal point of view with you on this. There was an Afghan monarchy of Kabul who made the decisions and signed the Durand line treaty in 1893 , it was re-affirmed in 1905, 1919, 1921 and 1930. The fact is Amir Abdul Rehman wanted FATA and Malakhand division to be in his possession and wrote a letter to British , requesting them , trying to convince them with reasons (refer to his autobiography). Previously Afghanistan's borders with Persia and Russia were also dictated by British. And this Iron Amir depended upon British assisstance to gain the throne.

Another clarification. Afghanistan didnt sold the Pashtun areas of present Pakistan to British. Afghanistan had already lost these territories much earlier. Much of today KPK was lost to Sikhs in the period between 1819 and 1834. Quetta, Sibi, Loralai, Zhob etc were annexed by British in treaty of Gandamak after second Anglo-Afghan war. FATA was left as buffer zone up to 1893 but a series of military expeditions were taken by British, from 1849 onwards, to deal with tribes there. I dont know from where this selling stuff is coming from. Iron Amir was not even in possession of FATA before Durand line treaty. With the assistance from British, arms, ammunition and money, iron amir Abdul rehman was able to extend the sway of Kabul and brought independent chiefdoms under rule of Kabul with military force. Hazarajat, badakhshan, Uzbeks, nuristan etc are today part of Afghanistan thanks to the British help that was provided to Iron Amir.

[tilla_jogian]

Many Pashtuns in Pakistan still complain about the fact that Amir Abdurrahman Khan signed the treaty and in their interpretation sold them to the British. Pakistani establishment also tries to use this against Pashtun unity by telling Pashtuns in Pakistan, look your brothers betrayed you and unfortunately those not familiar with Pashtun history will buy into this trick.
Ofcourse that is not what happenex, Pashtuns are not a commodity to be bought and sold.Tell Pashtuns Pashtuns in Pakistan that they were sold and they will give you a good slap. The fact is Durand line was signed without the consent of Pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan so we can't really blame each other and to this day the boundry doesn't really mean anything to the tribes living along the border.

Why should referendum be held in Afghanistan? The land belongs to the people who live there, it is there right to decide for themselves. I am not against a refrendum in Afghanistan though but they don't live there.

Any exemple of mythical Paki establishment telling Paki pakhtuns to say look Afghanis sold you to British? You realize good part of establishment is made up by pakhtuns right?

Other day someone on PF said Musharaf told Afghani pashtuns that your biggest enemy are farsiwans and not Pakistanis lol I asked for source and never got any response.

[Shapur]

Any exemple of mythical Paki establishment telling Paki pakhtuns to say look Afghanis sold you to British? You realize good part of establishment is made up by pakhtuns right?

Other day someone on PF said Musharaf told Afghani pashtuns that your biggest enemy are farsiwans and not Pakistanis lol I asked for source and never got any response.

I have to admit I can't give you an exact name from military establishment but There was one shia Pashtun I think from Kurram who was from a military family and when I asked him about Durand Line thats what he told me that Abdur rahman khan sold us. There was another member here by the name of Nokia Apridy long time ago who also said the same thing when things got heated during a stupid debate.
Ofcourse someone like History of Pashtuns won't be fooled by this but there are others who can fall into this trap.
By the way I have nothing against Punjabis or other people of Pakistan, I consider them our brothers in deen and by race, we have more in common than not. Any points I make are directed towards Pakistani elites and not the common people. Afghans are no saints either and all this stupid bikkering needs to stop.
Congrats on beating England today

[tilla_jogian]

I have to admit I can't give you an exact name from military establishment but There was one shia Pashtun I think from Kurram who was from a military family and when I asked him about Durand Line thats what he told me that Abdur rahman khan sold us. There was another member here by the name of Nokia Apridy long time ago who also said the same thing when things got heated during a stupid debate.
Ofcourse someone like History of Pashtuns won't be fooled by this but there are others who can fall into this trap.
By the way I have nothing against Punjabis or other people of Pakistan, I consider them our brothers in deen and by race, we have more in common than not. Any points I make are directed towards Pakistani elites and not the common people. Afghans are no saints either and all this stupid bikkering needs to stop.
Congrats on beating England today

The first time I heard this "sold" thing was on internet forums by other Pakistan pashtuns. And there are millions of Pakis doing goverment jobs, not all of them are part of establishment. So what your friend said was his own opinion.

Establishment just mean military elites. I guess when ever Afghani pakhtuns ask Paki pakhtuns about durrand line and why you don't want to join our great land Afghanistan then this "sold" thing come up, good excuse I guess.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Those Paki Pathans who say they were sold out by Afghan royal family are right. It's true.

[Samandri]

Those Paki Pathans who say they were sold out by Afghan royal family are right. It's true.

The Amir simply gave up the claim, the territories were never under his rule to begin with. The fact is his Kingdom expanded thanks to assistance from British. British dictated the treaty of Durand, none of requests of the Amir were accepted. The status of Amir was like those rulers of princely states of British India, he was not exactly that much sovereign. British didnt need to bribe or buy Amir to deal with Pashtun regions under their rule, they were paying local Maliks to keep the peace and maintain the rule.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The Amir simply gave up the claim, the territories were never under his rule to begin with. The fact is his Kingdom expanded thanks to assistance from British. British dictated the treaty of Durand, none of requests of the Amir were accepted. The status of Amir was like those rulers of princely states of British India, he was not exactly that much sovereign. British didnt need to bribe or buy Amir to deal with Pashtun regions under their rule, they were paying local Maliks to keep the peace and maintain the rule.

He could have chosen to fight the British, he didn't. Instead he chose to commit genocide against his own subjects.

Similarly, his grandson mobilized tribes of FATA against British and right in the middle of the fight he back stabbed them and made a deal with the British.

I am surprised why you haven't mentioned Abdurrahmn Khan and Amanullah Khan in your traitors thread.

[Samandri]

He could have chosen to fight the British, he didn't. Instead he chose to commit genocide against his own subjects.

Similarly, his grandson mobilized tribes of FATA against British and right in the middle of the fight he back stabbed them and made a deal with the British.

I am surprised why you haven't mentioned Abdurrahmn Khan and Amanullah Khan in your traitors thread.

The traitor list is very long, keep checking that thread for the updates.

Why he, AbdulRehman, would fight against British with whom assistance he acquired the throne?....Like i said , he owed his power to British and his foreign policy was dictated by British. These Persian-zed Afghan monarchs had lost their strength much earlier, they were weak. King Amanullah's was a wannabe Ataturk. Grown up in a palace, this nazuk king obviously pissed in his pants when British planes bombarded his palace.

About Third Anglo-Afghan war, Afghans failed to stir the uprising in tribes of frontier, aside from the successes due to initial surprise factor, rest of militray campaign was a disaster and was bound to doom. Mehsuds and Wan's wazirs started war against British Independently and was not coordinated with Afghan army. Planning was poor, intention was noble but strength and spine was not there

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Still, Amanullah Khan and his grandad were both traitors.

[Samandri]

Still, Amanullah Khan and his grandad were both traitors.

I prefer word incompetent for Amanullah instead of traitor. But surely his grandad easily fits into traitor category. British saw Amanullah as a threat and they had role in Habibullah Kalakani's uprising against him. In Hindustani muslim circles, Amanullah was very popular due to his ant-British stance.

[DaZahroJaam.]

As soon as possible. Even if it ends on nasty terms for both of the countries which it most likely will. If this issue had been settled 20 years ago, both Afghanistan and Pakistan would be two totally different countries than they are today. If it lingers on undecided even more, 20 years from now, our issues would increase at least 3 times more.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I prefer word incompetent for Amanullah instead of traitor. But surely his grandad easily fits into traitor category. British saw Amanullah as a threat and they had role in Habibullah Kalakani's uprising against him. In Hindustani muslim circles, Amanullah was very popular due to his ant-British stance.

I dont know. I have the feeling Amanullah Khan's anti British stance was just an act. I mean he was Atta Turks follower.