Artisan people (kammi, kameen) versus tribal people

[Toramana]

As a member of the artisan class, I have question from you guys, i. e., all the tribal people here (lol, including Khushal).

The appearance of the artisan classes coincides with the emergence of a more advanced social structure/organization and society. It is an indication that the society in question is becoming more diversified and specialized in terms of occupations, skills, and professions.

With the appearance of the artisan class, we see the proliferation and flowering of art and sophistication, the deepening of the understanding of the aspect of nature the exploitation of which is useful to human progress and survival, expansion of intellectual activity, etc. We see it in as how do people start using more refined dresses (clothes, shoes, ornaments, all the work of cloth weavers, cobblers, goldsmiths, ), more diverse food, better designed homes with nicer architecture (masons, carpenters, blacksmiths) that are not only aesthetically superior but also can withstand natural disaster better, and so on.

This is not a just an ordinary point. One should not take it for granted. The presence of artisan class signals the intellectual growth of the society because the work of the artisan class needs a better understanding of nature in the form of more advanced mathematics (needed for trade, business, tax, land surveys, etc.), geometry (all the carpenter-y, architecture, etc.), knowledge of symmetry and ratio/proportion (e.g., fashion, carpet designing, ), etc.

Now take the religious people. Probably the earliest moral and ethical system manifested in the form of religion--Its interpretation and explanation as well as its moral ethical pronouncements were enunciated by religious people. Later ethical and moral values were explained in a more rational way when philosophy was invented.

From this it is easy to see the birth of artisan classes in a society indicates that the society has taken one huge step forward intellectually and civilization-ally.

Now compare this with when the society, which is in the tribal phase. Every thing is so crude from the design of homes, to dress, food, etc. Even the farming methods are so rudimentary, inferior, and ineffective. If agri-culture is the culture of farming (growing crops, food, animal husbandry, etc.) then this culture is so under-evolved in tribal societies that they cannot even feed themselves. One cannot even think of the existence of the higher culture (i. e., culture of thought, knowledge, deep thinking, writing, creation of literature, art, etc.) in a tribal society.

Although, there are many admirable traditions in a tribal society, e.g., egalitarianism, etc. but to say that tribal society is all good and therefore the ideal societal end is so wrong.

How can one say that tribal people are better than artisan people?

[tilla_jogian]

Hmm artisans vs tribals? Or artisans vs zamindars? I will write on behalf of punjabis.

In west I always wondered why people put down artisan class in rural areas of Pakistan. They are not considered any better then lets say menials like nai, machi, chuhra, mussali etc who do nothing else but work in other people homes or zameen.

But artisan people are also lumped with them in to kammi category. Its kind of symbolic and lieange/blood is involved here even if one change profession. Or even if someone from high caste because of bad luck have to adopt one of kammi profession, he still remain blue blooded. Though these people will avoid at all costs to do any of that work, and instead look for other means. Especially in modern times when families are getting bigger, land smaller so people look for other means to earn.

Now what is artisan class? Tarkhan, kasai, kasbi, kumehar etc Now trading castes/shop keeper were also considered lower then zamindar clans in rural areas but they are not kammi. Also moulvi job was reserved for kammi of village. So being moulvi became associated with being kammi.

[Toramana]

Hmm artisans vs tribals? Or artisans vs zamindars? I will write on behalf of punjabis.

In west I always wondered why people put down artisan class in rural areas of Pakistan. They are not considered any better then lets say menials like nai, machi, chuhra, mussali etc who do nothing else but work in other people homes or zameen.

But artisan people are also lumped with them in to kammi category. Its kind of symbolic and lieange/blood is involved here even if one change profession. Or even if someone from high caste because of bad luck have to adopt one of kammi profession, he still remain blue blooded. Though these people will avoid at all costs to do any of that work, and instead look for other means. Especially in modern times when families are getting bigger, land smaller so people look for other means to earn.

Now what is artisan class? Tarkhan, kasai, kasbi, kumehar etc Now trading castes/shop keeper were also considered lower then zamindar clans in rural areas but they are not kammi. Also moulvi job was reserved for kammi of village. So being moulvi became associated with being kammi.

Now I understand. You guys have retained some vestas of the Hindu caste system because the distinction of kammis and artisan is a completely new information for me. I thought there are two broad classes; one the Zamindars and the others the Kammis (commoners).

But what you are telling me indicates there are 3 classes; (1) Zamindars (2) artisan (3) kammis. Very close similarity with Hindu caste system except for the absence of the Brahmin class. Is there no religious class?

[tilla_jogian]

Now I understand. You guys have retained some vestas of the Hindu caste system because the distinction of kammis and artisan is a completely new information for me. I thought there are two broad classes; one the Zamindars and the others the Kammis (commoners).

But what you are telling me indicates there are 3 classes; (1) Zamindars (2) artisan (3) kammis. Very close similarity with Hindu caste system except for the absence of the Brahmin class. Is there no religious class?

This is punjab caste system not hindu. Zamindar are not brahmins. Brahmins actually had pretty ****ty position in punjab and they were considered below zamindar.

Religious class is kammi class of moulvis as I alresdy told you. There only two main classes, kammi and zamindar. So called artisan class is considered kammi.

In fact 3 classes, zamindar, shop trading class, kammi in that order. For exemple kakezai are punjabi kamis of artisan class or trading class but some people believe they are some long lost pashtuns because wikipedia say so.

[tilla_jogian]

Why is molvis considered low class? I thought that people respected them

people respect them but they are still of kammi background.

[Toramana]

These are the things that artisan people do.

Charssada Chapal





Wazirabad sandal

[Toramana]

[tilla_jogian]

These are the things that artisan people do.

Charssada Chapal





Wazirabad sandal

Mochi people make shoes.

[tilla_jogian]

This seem to be work of tohba or kasbi.

[Toramana]

This seem to be work of tohba or kasbi.

What does that mean, i. e., tohba or kasbi?

[Toramana]

Omar Khayyam, the man from the artisan class. He was a polymath a poet a great mathematician. "Khayyám Sikander was famous during his times as a mathematician. He wrote the influential Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra (1070), which laid down the principles of algebra, part of the body of Islamic Mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe. In particular, he derived general methods for solving cubic equations and even some higher orders."

If he were born in Hindustan he would be ridiculed as a kammi kameen or an untouchable. Thanks God he was born in West Asia which is free of these complexities.


Ghiyāth ad-Din Abu'l-Fat'h 'Umar ibn Ibrāhīm al-Khayyām Nīshāpūrī (Persian: غیاث الدین ابو الفتح عمر ابراهیم خیام نیشاپوری) was born in Nishapur, in Iran, then a Seljuq capital in Khorasan,[7][8][9] which rivaled Cairo or Baghdad in cultural prominence in that era. He is thought to have been born into a family of tent-makers (khayyāmī "tent-maker"), which he would make into a play on words later in life:

Khayyám, who stitched the tents of science,
Has fallen in grief's furnace and been suddenly burned,
The shears of Fate have cut the tent ropes of his life,
And the broker of Hope has sold him for nothing!

— Omar Khayyám

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m

[tilla_jogian]

Its very insulting when you compare your kin with great muslim scholars of past. Stop using this artisan word, it was coined by British. Actuall word is kammi for people like you.

[khushal]

Now take the religious people. Probably the earliest moral and ethical system manifested in the form of religion--Its interpretation and explanation as well as its moral ethical pronouncements were enunciated by religious people. Later ethical and moral values were explained in a more rational way when philosophy was invented.

so what your saying is that the early people who tried to bring some moraal and ethical values were not rational but the later people were rational. That does not make sense. Lying is unethical and stealing is unethical no matter who says it, the value does not change. You always have to put down someone you disagree with in a non rational sense.


From this it is easy to see the birth of artisan classes in a society indicates that the society has taken one huge step forward intellectually and civilization-ally.

Now compare this with when the society, which is in the tribal phase. Every thing is so crude from the design of homes, to dress, food, etc. Even the farming methods are so rudimentary, inferior, and ineffective. If agri-culture is the culture of farming (growing crops, food, animal husbandry, etc.) then this culture is so under-evolved in tribal societies that they cannot even feed themselves. One cannot even think of the existence of the higher culture (i. e., culture of thought, knowledge, deep thinking, writing, creation of literature, art, etc.) in a tribal society.

Although, there are many admirable traditions in a tribal society, e.g., egalitarianism, etc. but to say that tribal society is all good and therefore the ideal societal end is so wrong.

Tribal people are tribal not by choice but of necessity. It has to do with their environment. The rough geography of the tribal belt makes it necessary for people to organize around kinfolk for protection. Governments(Moghul, afghan, brits, soviets then paki, and even NATO) have tried to bring some law to the area but it is futile since it is very expensive to station troops and police and keep them supplied. It is natural and more feasible for the people themselves to govern themselves as they see fit in their own way.
What is expected to happen is that the people that live in the tribal belt will live in war like state since the people would try to fight over limited resources(water and arable land) indefinitely.

How can one say that tribal people are better than artisan people?

One is not better than the other. They depend on each other. We call the artisan people in our area Khalifagon which is a very respectable term. Words like Kammi are extremely offensive and as I can see from comments on this Forum, people insulting each others families and what not is evident that urban folk have no manners and mostly have low self esteem about their life and families since they need to offend other's families to feel good about their own family.

[khushal]

Its very insulting when you compare your kin with great muslim scholars of past. Stop using this artisan word, it was coined by British. Actuall word is kammi for people like you.

Kammi is offensive. It is a fasi word meaning "less" as if one human has less value than another. You indic people are really fvcked up in the head.

[khushal]

Omar Khayyam, the man from the artisan class. He was a polymath a poet a great mathematician. "Khayyám Sikander was famous during his times as a mathematician. He wrote the influential Treatise on Demonstration of Problems of Algebra (1070), which laid down the principles of algebra, part of the body of Islamic Mathematics that was eventually transmitted to Europe. In particular, he derived general methods for solving cubic equations and even some higher orders."

If he were born in Hindustan he would be ridiculed as a kammi kameen or an untouchable. Thanks God he was born in West Asia which is free of these complexities.


Ghiyāth ad-Din Abu'l-Fat'h 'Umar ibn Ibrāhīm al-Khayyām Nīshāpūrī (Persian: غیاث الدین ابو الفتح عمر ابراهیم خیام نیشاپوری) was born in Nishapur, in Iran, then a Seljuq capital in Khorasan,[7][8][9] which rivaled Cairo or Baghdad in cultural prominence in that era. He is thought to have been born into a family of tent-makers (khayyāmī "tent-maker"), which he would make into a play on words later in life:

Khayyám, who stitched the tents of science,
Has fallen in grief's furnace and been suddenly burned,
The shears of Fate have cut the tent ropes of his life,
And the broker of Hope has sold him for nothing!

— Omar Khayyám

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khayy%C3%A1m

This is true. Many Indians in the lower caste with great talent and skill could have given India great gifts of progress.
The caste system is a huge obstacle to Indias great potential. If Islam had spread faster in India demolishing the caste system, it would have given India great leaps forward.