English man talking in Pashto

[Toramana]

Toramana
I do appreciate your thoughts and ideas especially on secularism and development. However I feel that you may have some grudges with Pashto, Pashtuns and Pashtunwali as you always discourage foreigners and others who have interest in Pashto, Pashtuns and Pashtunwali. May be it is because of you being a non Pashtun yourself as you are paracha and not ethnically Pashtun or may be some other reason.

Do you know that who rediscovered Pashto and Pashtunwali. Mainly Britishers, Germans, Russians and orientalists. This was British governor in Peshawar who was translating English speech of Jinnah in Pashto. These were all foreigners who wrote first grammar and dictionaries of Pashto. A lot of research work has been done by foreigners on Pashto and Pashtuns.

One ready example is Yasmenah , Bengal Tiger , Tjan and Hallo of this forum who have immense interest in Pashtun related matters. Thus every foreigner is not a spy. Let others to take interest in our language and people. Pashto is not Dari or Urdu which already have a market. We have to create market for our language. Spies should be controlled by other means, not by doubting their interest in Pashto.

I attach no importance to being a Pakhtun, a Paracha or whatsoever as long as I can be no trouble to others. By the way I have met many Parachas and have found them having high intelligence and business acumen and very likable people. They are not dumb like feudal gentry of the rural Swat with real- Pashtun pedigrees but with extremely disgusting ways.

But anyhow, why are you more loyal to the king than the king himself? Are you in hurry to complete the job target to receive your pocket money tomorrow on 1st May? (just kidding).

I appreciate the contribution made by the British colonial administrators to Pashto literature but at the same time I also understand that what they did for Pashto was neither always a genuine work nor always based on benign/honest intentions. The motives sometimes also was to better understand the people (and their culture) they wanted to rule and to exploit their vulnerabilities and strengths. For example, the redneck British imperialist, Olaf Careo, wrote an ethnography of Pashtuns titled "The Pathans" and the work was relatively good but he also mixed scholarship with West's neocolonialist agenda and propaganda.

Moreover, Pashtuns should stop looking to outsiders for advancement of Pashto. Only the sons of the soil will make the required effort to promote Pashto. Pashtuns and other oriental people should learn a little bit of self-respect and do for their languages and cultures themselves instead of attaching expectation with outsiders.

[Toramana]

Dear friends, I think in this way spies are unavoidable. I mean Pashto is not Lom language, there is always a way for a spy in the one or other way to infiltrate, there are more important meassures to take in that sense. Sometimes today spying is so cunning that actually a spy like Toramana described isn't needed anymore.

What people of our places often lack is the ability to be immune to sweet words, specially when it concerns your pain as Pashtun, Armenian or so on...
That makes some people embrace everybody who glorifies your victories or condemns your enemies. While this is mostly not a friend who does so as he uses your weakness to befriend you

Dear Tjanaparh, you have snatched words from my mouth. One thing, although spies don't always need any medium of language but depending on the nature of their work and the type of insight they want to gain, they sometimes do need a more direct medium to establish a more intimate contact with the target population and to gain its trust.

At the same time, I don't at all mean that a foreign learner of a language has definitely some ulterior motive. I have high regard for those that study cultures and languages of other people for selfless scholarship, deeper understanding, knowledge, and, above all, as an enlightening endeavor about the broader "human-question". I will love to be associated with such people.

But the problem arises when people come and take advantage of your tradition, values, and courtesy and study you and your people as a "objects of interest" and use that knowledge to implement their agenda of hegemony and control on your land---and above all when they use such noble professions as scholarship, teaching, historiography, anthropology, archaeology, etc. as a guise. That becomes very painful because then you think there are no sincere people and you develop suspicion of others.

One thing more I consider people associated with intelligence agencies and spies extremely disgusting because I think intelligence agencies are inherently harmful because they want to gain at the cost of others mostly the weak ones.

[Toramana]

Hmmm...interesting.


Thanks for this.

People of the east or "Orient" (as some westerners would say in the past) are generally quite hospitable and welcoming to outsiders. They feel they have a duty, a responsibility to make this outsider feel welcome and comfortable and of course we all know Pashtunwali stress on "melmastia". So locals would definitely feel guilty about not being warm to foreigners which include one or two who might be spies.


:D

Bangal-Tiger, I have been experiencing these things since 1980s when I was a student and Afghan War was at its peak. At that time, Peshawar used to be the biggest CIA base in the world and you could see Americans and Westerners at every nook and corner of Peshawar in regional study centers, universities, as visitors, scholars, trainers, journalists, etc. mollycoddling the holy Islamist warrior (remember, how Ronald Ragan said "Mujahid leaders are the moral equivalent of America's founding fathers"), teaching American English, even advising and sponsoring Islamic madrassas.

There was a large American council there in the University Town area where you would see Mujahideen with long beards lined up outside for God knows what. Attached also was an American Council library.

In fact, at that time, with West's and America's encouragement and financing, extremist Islamist militants were let loose on secular, liberal, and nationalist groups especially in universities and educational institutions in order to suppress any opposition from them to West's, America's immoral use of other people lands and human-capital for its covet wars.

Interestingly, in engineering university, one of our teachers was an American lady. Her husband was an "anthropologist" doing some "anthropological work" in "Pakistan-Afghanistan" region. She taught us a course. Later I realized teaching was just a guise because she didn't know the subject well. Once we a group of students along with our teachers went to a local restaurant. One of our teachers praised Russian salads and the American lady and her husband were furious why did he praise Russian salads.

Anyhow as the war ended in 1988, Westerners/Americans started leaving. Till 1990, almost all had disappeared. Within a year the American Council was closed and all visa etc. related affairs were shifted to Islamabad. In the aftermath of war, Americans and other Westerners had left a section of the building of Agriculture University, Peshawar that they constructed as charity/donation and a lot of misery, suffering, and above all highly explosives dynamite in the form of jehadist and extremist Islam. They went to restructure the world around the notion of "new American Century and New World Order". All this came at the cost of hundred of thousands of Pashtun lives, destruction of their families and land and disruption of their society. The liberal moderate Pashtuns leadership especially on the Afghan side was either marginalized or killed. West/America was able to give USSR its Vietnam albeit at a heavy human cost of Afghans/Pashtuns.

There is a fundamental problem with Westerner especially American mentality. They think they have got the natural and absolute right to use other people land and human capital to fight their wars of world domination and hegemony as if other people are lesser humans and disposable/ expendable objects to be used whenever needed.

[Kushan Prince]

Spies are people like Aria and bost bastan who work for CENTCOM and clearly have an agenda, not people who have an interest in learning about pashto and Pashtuns.

[Teh Alchemist]

Anyhow as the war ended in 1988, Westerners/Americans started leaving.

Which war ended in 1988?

Are you the mystery Pakistani who seems to infest with the smell of cumin seed all Afghan forums?

[Toramana]

Which war ended in 1988?

Are you the mystery Pakistani who seems to infest with the smell of cumin seed all Afghan forums?

I mean war for Americans/West on the Afghan front ended as Russian forces started leaving in May 1988.

[Tjanaparh]

[MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION]
I agree with You, but much care should be taken on your side. In the sense that today even if somebody is not directly a spy, often works as such. Sometimes it is enough to make a person believe that he has a good agenda and make him act for one organizations purposes without realizing what he really does. Sometimes entire countries are used that way.
I give you my own example, I am a froreigner, and surely not all my ideas are pure trouth, some ideas come through the way and place I was educated and may be wrong, and may have been used for someones agebda without that i realize it. No immagine I come as a teacher to Afghanistan thinking to make a good thing I maybe could bring with my education an agenda of somebody else without realizing it.
Why I give this example, because in the west in school people are taught in such a way, the result is that only few people question the "ideals" they were taught and teach the same way for others and see those who do not correspond to these ideals as a danger.
same happens in other places. But as world grows closer, less and less spies like "James Bond" are needed I think.

And yes I agree most importantly, your own people should be among the main scholars on your culture, as actually your culture schould be most important for your own people.

[Al Hanif]

Interestingly enough, Hallo did not deny that she is interested in meeting someone.

I hope you find a good goy. I mean guy.

[Toramana]

[MENTION=1201]Toramana[/MENTION]
I agree with You, but much care should be taken on your side. In the sense that today even if somebody is not directly a spy, often works as such. Sometimes it is enough to make a person believe that he has a good agenda and make him act for one organizations purposes without realizing what he really does. Sometimes entire countries are used that way.

Dear Tjanaparh, you are right. Many people may be innocent and might be convinced into believing in the righteousness of their actions in other countries. This is how nationalistic agenda work. Unfortunately, it has been taken to extreme in the West where actions in non-Western countries is justified with high moral pretext and media in addition to politicians also plays a role in this.

Remember the social Darwinist and "White man's burden" theories.

[Teh Alchemist]

When was the last time an Englishman posted a thread showing how a Pashtun is speaking English?

[Bengal_Tiger]

Bangal-Tiger, I have been experiencing these things since 1980s when I was a student and Afghan War was at its peak. At that time, Peshawar used to be the biggest CIA base in the world and you could see Americans and Westerners at every nook and corner of Peshawar in regional study centers, universities, as visitors, scholars, trainers, journalists, etc. mollycoddling the holy Islamist warrior (remember, how Ronald Ragan said "Mujahid leaders are the moral equivalent of America's founding fathers"), teaching American English, even advising and sponsoring Islamic madrassas.

There was a large American council there in the University Town area where you would see Mujahideen with long beards lined up outside for God knows what. Attached also was an American Council library.

In fact, at that time, with West's and America's encouragement and financing, extremist Islamist militants were let loose on secular, liberal, and nationalist groups especially in universities and educational institutions in order to suppress any opposition from them to West's, America's immoral use of other people lands and human-capital for its covet wars.

Interestingly, in engineering university, one of our teachers was an American lady. Her husband was an "anthropologist" doing some "anthropological work" in "Pakistan-Afghanistan" region. She taught us a course. Later I realized teaching was just a guise because she didn't know the subject well. Once we a group of students along with our teachers went to a local restaurant. One of our teachers praised Russian salads and the American lady and her husband were furious why did he praise Russian salads.

Anyhow as the war ended in 1988, Westerners/Americans started leaving. Till 1990, almost all had disappeared. Within a year the American Council was closed and all visa etc. related affairs were shifted to Islamabad. In the aftermath of war, Americans and other Westerners had left a section of the building of Agriculture University, Peshawar that they constructed as charity/donation and a lot of misery, suffering, and above all highly explosives dynamite in the form of jehadist and extremist Islam. They went to restructure the world around the notion of "new American Century and New World Order". All this came at the cost of hundred of thousands of Pashtun lives, destruction of their families and land and disruption of their society. The liberal moderate Pashtuns leadership especially on the Afghan side was either marginalized or killed. West/America was able to give USSR its Vietnam albeit at a heavy human cost of Afghans/Pashtuns.

There is a fundamental problem with Westerner especially American mentality. They think they have got the natural and absolute right to use other people land and human capital to fight their wars of world domination and hegemony as if other people are lesser humans and disposable/ expendable objects to be used whenever needed.

Thanks for your informative post Toramana,

Wow..I didn't know you were that old. Thus I now have to start calling you Toramana Lala :D

On a more serious note, you are far more experienced than the likes of me and others and witnessed history i.e. during the early 1980s.



1. The US (thus the west which it is the leader and main protector of) supports "Islamists" as a tool to weaken its rivals such as Russia, China etc.

Even today in Bangladesh, the US backs the Jamaat e Islami terrorist organization calling it a "legitimate" and "moderate" political party.

This is because, amongst other things, the US wants an "Islamist" party in Bangladesh as part of a global network of "Islamist" parties it can use to destabilize non-Muslim rivals of the US. Jamaat for example can be used as leverage against India.

All this stuff about the so-called "War on Terror" is nonsense.


2. Westerners are arrogant but that is not something inherent to them or exclusive to them. It is about power and status. In any part of the world the rich look down on the poor. In the Gulf while they revere white westerners they look down on white eastern Europeans e.g. Rumanians/Russians (present in the UAE for example).

If in 50 years time the US is broken up and a poor country ordinary American citizens will not get the respect that they do now.

A black friend of mine who was in Syria told me that when the Syrians thought he was Sudanese they were unpleasant to him, but when they thought he was an African-American they were nice to him.

The difference is though his racial appearance was always the same, the perception of his socio-economic background (and thus "prestige") varied.

Snobbery is a universal phenomenon. However the way the white western elites justify their imperialism under "freedom and democracy" is unique to them.

[DaZahroJaam.]

party poopers.

[Toramana]

party poopers.

DZJ, whom are you calling party poopers?

[DaZahroJaam.]

all of you. you being the leader.