Secularism in Afghanistan

[Tjanaparh]

you have done so in the past and now when shamlawar said about the pagan practices prior to Islam you jump in to defend that.
that is the same tactic used by those who wish to deislamise Pashtuns. By promoting the pagan past. you dont tell us what Muslim is and what Muslim is not and what you hoped Muslims to be. i have respected you and still do but your attempts at banding up and backing those who insult us on this forum wont fly. your knowledge is zero.
you actually want to tell us that it is ok for chechen muslims to be against other muslism because they dont share same pagan history.
first gain some knowledge yourself. dont talk about my country and people ,since you dont have their best interests at heart. I dont defend him im just telling you to stop pushing your views upon us.thats what im saying ,next time mind your own business. you have always defended those who insult Islam and muslims on this forum but you dont dare to do it yourself just like here you are trying to insult me but arent direct about it.
if i was going to defend ignorance than i would have defended you and the likes of toraman that you like.

1.I don't promote anything, as I am not a promoter. What is actually pagan and not pagan?
2. No , I want to tell You that it would be good people wouldn't be blinded. You say actually the same for Pashtuns as I said for Chechens.
3.I am not telling what a Muslim should be, so another person sgouldn't say what a Zradashti is in his fantasy.
4.I don't want to insult you at all. And it is quiet sad you think that way.
for the rest i stop, as it isn't that way.
5.We share not the same race, what about "paganism", this is a term of hate, but culturaly no Russians don't share the same roots as chechens at all, neither do we.
For the knowledge, yes I don't consider myself to have much knowledge. But at least to understand that insults and hatefull coments won't bring anything good nor to who insults nor to who is insulted I think to undrstand.

Not to choose the words but blindly hate is not the way to trouth.

All the best to you!

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Some people get offended when you remind them of how sick and perverted pre Islamic persia was.

[Khanwali]

I remember Najibs era. I use to live in micro rayon 3 and attend best communist school wherr Najibs daughter use to go.

Back then all Mullahs were instructed by the gov. Tafseer of quran was restricted to non political matters. Bukhari was prohibited literature.

People would get arrested and locked up for being too religious. Najib was using SCUDDS against fellow Pashtun villagers in Aryub, Ahmedkhel, Azra, khost, Orgun, Kunar, Nangarhar and Zabul.

He wiped out entire villages with his Russian weapons.

Only dishonest and incensitive communists remember him as a just ruler because they personally benefited from his tyrannical government.

Mullas should be employed by the government and they should be closely montored so that they don't use religion against the people and nation as currently mullas are doing. Afghanistan was not the only country which was monitoring mullas, many others like including islamic countries like Iran, Saudi and..are closely watching their mullas. Today we see that some mullas are preaching against afghan army by refering to Quran and some hadeth so It was the right decision to prohabit stuppid and sell out mullas to use islam as an instrument against afghanistan.

People were not arrested or locked up for being a religious but they were put in prison because they were using quran against the government and its people. There is nothing strange about this because every government has a resposibility to protect its citizen. Any normal and self respected government would do the same thing.

Scudds was not used against those villages because they were pashtuns or non pashtuns. Scudds were used on the areas which was controlled by the enemies of peace and stability of Afghanistan.

I didn't personally befinited from the time of "communist". I lost almost 14 memebers of memebers so I guess that you benefited mostly because you were living in macroyan and were going in the same school as the doughter of Najib

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Mullas should be employed by the government and they should be closely montored so that they don't use religion against the people and nation as currently mullas are doing. Afghanistan was not the only country which was monitoring mullas, many others like including islamic countries like Iran, Saudi and..are closely watching their mullas. Today we see that some mullas are preaching against afghan army by refering to Quran and some hadeth so It was the right decision to prohabit stuppid and sell out mullas to use islam as an instrument against afghanistan.

People were not arrested or locked up for being a religious but they were put in prison because they were using quran against the government and its people. There is nothing strange about this because every government has a resposibility to protect its citizen. Any normal and self respected government would do the same thing.

Scudds was not used against those villages because they were pashtuns or non pashtuns. Scudds were used on the areas which was controlled by the enemies of peace and stability of Afghanistan.

I didn't personally befinited from the time of "communist". I lost almost 14 memebers of memebers so I guess that you benefited mostly because you were living in macroyan and were going in the same school as the doughter of Najib

The government, according to most principles of freedom ought not have any right to monitor anyone anytime.

That would then allow the government to basically go directly against the Quran without being challenged in any way.

Your facts are about as accurate as the 100 other automatons we have easily dispatched here. The archives contain pages of their inability to defend the excesses of Najib.

Lets let a high level Najib official who remained loyal to the very end do the talk though shall we? Let him crush your argument.

http://www.thenation.com/article/167440/ideology-and-electricity-soviet-experience-afghanistan#axzz2aSdPHg8D

From the high impact factor and rather honest journal, The Nation:

This attestation is form the filthy mouth of one of NajibusShaytaan's most loyal henchmen:

"One old communist official, Saleh Muhammad Zeary, whom Steele tracked down to a humble tower block near London’s Heathrow Airport, explained the resistance this way: 'Peasants were happy at first, but when they heard we were communists, they changed. The whole world was against us. They said we don’t believe in Islam, and they weren’t wrong. They could see we didn’t pray. We liberated women from having to pay dowry, and they said we believed in free love.' Zeary stayed in Kabul until the mujahedeen came to power in 1992. When these soldiers of God murdered his wife and two of his children, he finally fled. Another London-based former PDPA official told Steele: 'In power [party leaders] wanted to eradicate literacy within five years. It was ridiculous. The land reforms were unpopular. They were promulgating these so-called revolutionary decrees which they wanted to implement by force. Society wasn’t ready. People hadn’t been consulted.' Steele notes that these old PDPA veterans, despite years of access to large sums of public money, showed no signs of having stolen much of it, if any."

So sorry, when it comes to weighing the word of a ANP style PMAP style programmed robot baked in Senior Asfyandaar's tanoor such as yourself and the thousand others who have said the exact same thing as you here vs Muhammad Zeary - I think we can trust the latter much more.

No more need to discuss the matter with you until you deal with Mr. Zeary. We expect you to call him/write him/debate him and then post your results here.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

This Khalqi Khanwali seems like an honest communist. He doesnt hide his true face.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Mullas should be employed by the government and they should be closely montored so that they don't use religion against the people and nation as currently mullas are doing. Afghanistan was not the only country which was monitoring mullas, many others like including islamic countries like Iran, Saudi and..are closely watching their mullas. Today we see that some mullas are preaching against afghan army by refering to Quran and some hadeth so It was the right decision to prohabit stuppid and sell out mullas to use islam as an instrument against afghanistan.

People were not arrested or locked up for being a religious but they were put in prison because they were using quran against the government and its people. There is nothing strange about this because every government has a resposibility to protect its citizen. Any normal and self respected government would do the same thing.

Scudds was not used against those villages because they were pashtuns or non pashtuns. Scudds were used on the areas which was controlled by the enemies of peace and stability of Afghanistan.

I didn't personally befinited from the time of "communist". I lost almost 14 memebers of memebers so I guess that you benefited mostly because you were living in macroyan and were going in the same school as the doughter of Najib

In case you try to wriggle out of the argument,

Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary's credentials amongst Khalqi and Parchami types is impeccable.

FROM A SOURCE AT THE TIME OF HIS INVOLVEMENT

http://books.google.com/books?id=RUS...nistan&f=false

page 74 has his bio as follows:

"Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary:

One of the most intelligent of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan leaders, Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary politically is remarkable for his chameleon like ability to remain in the good graces of all the khalq and parcham led governments since 1978. Born in Kandahar in 1937, he graduated from Kabul University's medical school after reportedly leading his class for seven years (some knowledgable emigres however dispute that statement.) A founding member of the PDPA central committee, Zeary was an unsuccessful contestant in the 1969 elections for parliament; after the elections he was arrested and jailed for six years. Following the 1978 coup he became Minister of Agriculture and Land Reform, a key ministry at the time. In 1979 after a purported disagreement with Ameen he was shifted to Ministry of Public Health.

Unique amongst members of Amin's politburo, Zeary was retained in that body after Amin's death by Babrak Kamal and, in fact, was made one of his three secretaries, the most important party position. This appointment probably was at Soviet insistence to show some Khalq representation in the Secretariat. Though he held no cabinet portfolios in the Babrak regime, Zeary was a member of the Presidium of the Revolutionary council and also was chairman of the PDPA front organization, the national fatherland front.

Westerners who have met Zeary, including this author, have found him fluent in English, highly energetic, and voluble. Afghan emigres who knew Zeary describe him as "Talkative" and bright. Some charged him as being a regular narcotics user (marijuana) and an alcoholic. A former Afghan ambassador who knew Zeary gave a different picture...

A consistent advocate of unity within the PDA since 1980, Zeary conceivably might be tapped by the Soviets at some future time to become Prime Minister."

From notable source of the era:

Afghanistan: The First Five Years of Soviet Occupation

By J. Bruce Amstutz

Sorry Khanwali, all your views and all your arguments are grossly misinformed and are the result of aggressive brainwashing. Deal with Mr. Zeary first and then we can take your seriously. At this point, the argument is between random communist propagandist Khanwli and Mr. Zeary, not us.

Key quote once again from Mr. Zeary:
Reproduced in yet another source here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3hD...nistan&f=false

"They said we don't believe in Islam, and they weren't wrong. They could see we didn't pray..."
page 73
Ghosts of Afghanistan by Jonathan Steele, DIRECT INTERVIEW

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Another niiiiiiice quote from Mr. Zeary on the culture and atmosphere of Kandahar for Toramana and Taj Andersen as well as Soldat Amir:

"He (Zeary) paused searching for a modern image to describe the social conservatism that most Pashtuns accept without thinking: 'The Taliban are wild people. The place I was bought up in (Kandahar), long before the Taliban, was a kind of volunteer Taliban society."

From the mouth of the King Communist and Ameen, Karmal, and Najib right hand man himself.

Oh, the joy, lets repeat that last statement just for fun:
"The place I was bought up in (Kandahar), long before the Taliban, was a kind of volunteer Taliban society."

page 73:
and this interview was in 2011.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3hD...nistan&f=false

Bottom line: Quit your propaganda, Reacquaint yourself with your religion, quit lying about who the Pashtuns were and are, and admit you have no leg to stand on. Re-read Zeary's words about 1000 times until the brain washing is undone. Take the literature to your party leaders and show it to them. Until then, you are done.

[Khanwali]

In case you try to wriggle out of the argument,

Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary's credentials amongst Khalqi and Parchami types is impeccable.

FROM A SOURCE AT THE TIME OF HIS INVOLVEMENT

http://books.google.com/books?id=RUS...nistan&f=false

page 74 has his bio as follows:

"Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary:

One of the most intelligent of the Democratic Republic of Afghanistan leaders, Dr. Saleh Muhammad Zeary politically is remarkable for his chameleon like ability to remain in the good graces of all the khalq and parcham led governments since 1978. Born in Kandahar in 1937, he graduated from Kabul University's medical school after reportedly leading his class for seven years (some knowledgable emigres however dispute that statement.) A founding member of the PDPA central committee, Zeary was an unsuccessful contestant in the 1969 elections for parliament; after the elections he was arrested and jailed for six years. Following the 1978 coup he became Minister of Agriculture and Land Reform, a key ministry at the time. In 1979 after a purported disagreement with Ameen he was shifted to Ministry of Public Health.

Unique amongst members of Amin's politburo, Zeary was retained in that body after Amin's death by Babrak Kamal and, in fact, was made one of his three secretaries, the most important party position. This appointment probably was at Soviet insistence to show some Khalq representation in the Secretariat. Though he held no cabinet portfolios in the Babrak regime, Zeary was a member of the Presidium of the Revolutionary council and also was chairman of the PDPA front organization, the national fatherland front.

Westerners who have met Zeary, including this author, have found him fluent in English, highly energetic, and voluble. Afghan emigres who knew Zeary describe him as "Talkative" and bright. Some charged him as being a regular narcotics user (marijuana) and an alcoholic. A former Afghan ambassador who knew Zeary gave a different picture...

A consistent advocate of unity within the PDA since 1980, Zeary conceivably might be tapped by the Soviets at some future time to become Prime Minister."

From notable source of the era:

Afghanistan: The First Five Years of Soviet Occupation

By J. Bruce Amstutz

Sorry Khanwali, all your views and all your arguments are grossly misinformed and are the result of aggressive brainwashing. Deal with Mr. Zeary first and then we can take your seriously. At this point, the argument is between random communist propagandist Khanwli and Mr. Zeary, not us.

Key quote once again from Mr. Zeary:
Reproduced in yet another source here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=3hD...nistan&f=false

"They said we don't believe in Islam, and they weren't wrong. They could see we didn't pray..."
page 73
Ghosts of Afghanistan by Jonathan Steele, DIRECT INTERVIEW

Well, This is a fact the the leadership of PDPA did not follow islam in true sense. They didn't pray, they didn't go to haj, they used to drink alcahol and so on but I wouldn't say all party members were like this. But again I personally don't care if someone believes in islam or not. What I care about is that the person shouldn't commit any action against my country and my people.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Well, This is a fact the the leadership of PDPA did not follow islam in true sense. They didn't pray, they didn't go to haj, they used to drink alcahol and so on but I wouldn't say all party members were like this. But again I personally don't care if someone believes in islam or not. What I care about is that the person shouldn't commit any action against my country and my people.

Bullsh-it., he was fluent in English. He said "We didnt believe in it." PERIOD is the punctuation that follows- not semi colon or colon to indicate the thought flowed into the next section. That is, the initial sentence begins: They said we didn't believe in Islam, COMMA.... meaning he acknowledges they were correct in their assessment of his belief system.

So not only does he admit they were atheists, but that they also didn't pray.

Quit making excuses up or prove your point.

Committing actions against "my country?" Give me a break, these bas-tards were as bad as Karzai, and the only difference was they tried to sell the country to the politburo and murdered even each other to do it.

These same garbage pieces like Najib set up the ripe conditions for all of what followed.

Bottom line: These SOBs sold the country to those politburo bas-tards and tried to steal the land of people in a country that was not Pakistan or some other feudal corrupt place wherein the Brits had given the people land for loyalty - these were Afghans who had earned their land with some land grants going back to Ahmad Shah Abdali himself. And you think Zeary and that idiot Najib had the right to confiscate these lands and not even for imminent domain benefits of the whole nation, but to rehand them out to rural people that ended up not even wanting the land???

If you try to use lawyer style bull-sh-it with me again I'm going to come down on you even harder because you look dumb as rocks when you tried to do it above, being unable to grasp the basic punctuation of English to fake a point.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Well, This is a fact the the leadership of PDPA did not follow islam in true sense. They didn't pray, they didn't go to haj, they used to drink alcahol and so on but I wouldn't say all party members were like this. But again I personally don't care if someone believes in islam or not. What I care about is that the person shouldn't commit any action against my country and my people.

And by the way, in nearly universal definitions, inviting a foreign army into your country is "committing an action against a country and its people." And that is what each and every one of those feces sculptures did to Afghanistan and there are to this day lists of tens of thousands of names of villagers they purged and murdered even before the muj fighters lifted a hand. There is a communist official in London who actually kept a list of the names of the dead in his own village before the Khalqi and Parcham split became worsened and he had to flee. These are massive actions of murder over ideology.

[Khostai]

Thats a bad comparison. Let me give you an example of another country.

The Netherlands, one of the smallests and yet one of the richest countries in the world use to be the most religious country in the world 50 years ago. The Dutch colonized various places around the world and their economy was better than much larger countries. This while they are extremely religious and bigotted back then.

They aquired all their wealth long before they stopped being religious bigots. The Dutch were segregated into Protestants, Catholics and liberals. They use to be violent and extremely hostile to one another.

They stopped being such extreme fanatics after WW 2. The religious society slowly collapsed due to internal problems within sects.

Many advocates of secularism seem to have a very short memory. Just because a country is now secularand prosperous it doesn't mean secularism caused prosperity. In some cases it is prosperity that is causing secularism.

We should stop seeing things we wish to see but rather see things for what they are.

If it is worldly matters that we want and desire, we should say so up front and we shouldnt blame religion gor our poverty. Because if we were honest we could look back in history when Muslims were most wealthy and prosperous nation in the worlx yet we were not secular back then.

So why should we advocate secularism now to eradicate poverty? It only makes us look misinformed and misguided.

You make false claims. The secularisation of the state of the Netherlands began in 1796. There onwards it secularised more and more. in the 20th century the Netherlands was totaly secularised, only the mojority of the population was still religious, but that was at home, in politics and law religion was not mentioned. The secularisation created freedom for peopel who made ideologies like socialism and that led to the end of poverty. And also in the 20th century many European countries like the Netherlands began to eradicate the poverty, that was also becuase the masses demanded it, and the goverment was afraid of communist take over if they didn't do it.
It seems to me that extremist like you try to twist the history, like always -_-.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You are simply ignorant and misinformed nothing you say makes any sense. I rather stick to what dutch historians and political scientists say about dutch history than a troll like you who is probably a drop out.

[Khostai]

You are simply ignorant and misinformed nothing you say makes any sense. I rather stick to what dutch historians and political scientists say about dutch history than a troll like you who is probably a drop out.

LOL nice discription of youself :P

[BarakzaiAbdali]

You make false claims. The secularisation of the state of the Netherlands began in 1796. There onwards it secularised more and more. in the 20th century the Netherlands was totaly secularised, only the mojority of the population was still religious, but that was at home, in politics and law religion was not mentioned. The secularisation created freedom for peopel who made ideologies like socialism and that led to the end of poverty. And also in the 20th century many European countries like the Netherlands began to eradicate the poverty, that was also becuase the masses demanded it, and the goverment was afraid of communist take over if they didn't do it.
It seems to me that extremist like you try to twist the history, like always -_-.

Khostai,

I think he is talking about pillarisation which I remembered being taught about in European History back in High School.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pillari...te-Vanzanden-1

The article, despite being wiki, is pretty informative but we should confirm elsewhere. Here is what it says about the timeline of secular social injection into Netherland's politics:

"After World War II liberals and socialists, but also Protestants and Catholics, began to doubt the pillarised system. They founded a unity movement, the People's Movement Nederlandse Volksbeweging. Progressives of all pillars (including the Catholic resistance movement Christofoor) were united in this. They wanted a breakthrough (doorbraak) of the political system. But pillarisation was ingrained in Dutch society, and could not be defeated that easily. Even the People's Movement suffered from this, it was associated with the socialist party, Sociaal Democratische Arbeiders Partij (SDAP), and its ideology was socialism combined with democratic principles. Only the left liberalVrijzinnig Democratische Bond (VDB) and the minor Protestant Christian Democratic Union (CDU) joined the SDAP to form a new political party: the Labour Party, Partij van de Arbeid in 1946."

So the governmental authority was actually divided amongst the various religious pillar factions up until after WWII.

The Key thing here is, like the Americans, the citizens of that country had to make their own decision to change, it could not be an outside ideology or an outside army being put on them.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The Dutch bible belt today does not allow their children to be vacinated for diseases for Religious reasons. They do not allow women to wear jeans. They even have a fatwa website prohibiting people to watch tv.

They are a small minority and depoliticized. But these people use to rule Holland.

50 years ago in some places in Holland people would physically attack people belonging to a different pillar. This while Holland was so rich they were asking others to do manual labor here.