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Why are most (overseas) Iranians secular?

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  • #16
    I am in a position to answer this question as a person of Iranian heritage;

    Iranian society constantly teeters between the embracing of progressive values on the one hand and traditional on the other. How that "teetering" manifests itself on an individual level is expansive, to say the least.

    Diaspora Iranians are predominantly secular. As mentioned earlier, many of these individuals/families fled the country following the Islamic Revolution. However, the fixed shift towards secularity and other peculiarities (renouncing Islam, conversions, renouncing religion itself) are more a manifestation of Iranians fixating on the progressive aspect of our culture because the environment warrants it. Living in a foreign country prompts integration out of necessity, as Iranian communities have only recently sprung up in places like the Arab Emirates and Orange County, LA.

    From experience, more Iranians in Iran also tend to be secular than religious, although the distinction isn't as clear-cut. A hefty portion of Iranians are nominal Muslims out of necessity because, again, the environment warrants it; the situation in Iran specifically* calls for employees and those attempting to make something of themselves in the business world to observe Islamic practices attentively in the hopes of impressing superiors, be it in the workplace or the bazaar.
    Additionally, a large number of Iranians (especially the young) have grown disillusioned with the Islamic Regime and associate their mismanagement of the country with Islam. Whether that is justified or not is another discussion. I have read numerous statistics online citing private conversions to Zoroastrianism, the Indo-Iranian-derived monotheistic faith that found acceptance in Persia prior to Islam's arrival, has skyrocketed in recent years.
    Let us not, of course, also forget those devout Iranians in both Iran and abroad who proudly profess their belief in Islam. From personal experience, Muslim Iranians tend to be from more rural backgrounds (hence Ahmadinejad the "hardliner"'s grassroots support in the country), but as mentioned earlier, Iranians tend to have a strong traditional streak within them and Islam may be just that for a given individual or family.

    Summarised, Iranians are very adept at making the most of their circumstances, but certain cultural footholds are seldom lost. Can't say I've met many Iranians who were truly atheist, assimilated abroad and disconnected with their heritage.

    * - I am uncertain if similar behaviours exist in Pakistan or Afghanistan and can only speak for the situation in Iran here.

    Originally posted by randolph85 View Post
    persian nationalism, the bull**** idea that persians are better than they really are and them being bitter that they were conquered by arabs. ironically, shia persians are very anti arab.
    True Persian Nationalists are thankfully a minority in both the diaspora and Iran, although the lines between political Shi'ism, ethnic supremacism and blind patriotism are very blurred among the diaspora.

    It is an observation I've made numerous times in other ethnic groups as well; diaspora populations have a tendency to identify extensively with their root culture and that reveals itself in ways that, more often than not, are considered excessive by relatives back home.

    As with all forms of nationalism, Persian Nationalists have a habit of exaggerating the cultural achievements of Iran/Persia and vilifying ethnic groups we have complicated histories with (i.e. Arabs). It is somewhat ironic, then, to consider many of them are (at best) have a partial relation to the first waves of West Iranic speakers that settled the plateau. The genetic proximity of the average Iranian population to Armenians, Anatolian Turks, Assyrians etc. implies "we" are generally an Iranicized people (extent varies). Thus, those silly nationalists are selectively celebrating the achievements of those ancestors that were remembered.
    Even more ironic is the frequent derision of "Turks", who are incorrectly confused with the Mongols; was it not the Safavid and Qajar courts which allowed Persian culture and language to thrive once more?

    Let us also consider the counter-reaction that exists in the Arab World and beyond to hearing an Iranian express any sort of appreciation for their heritage. It certainly exists. And it, too, should be discouraged for it's emotional and mutually non-beneficial nature.
    Last edited by DMXX; 07-17-2012, 09:28 PM.
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    • #17
      the iranians are being persecuted and demeaned by the world around them. of course they will be defensive. they have a lot to be proud of as a culture, from what i have read.
      the pashtuns feel persecuted so they also are defensive.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by حکیم خان اورګونی View Post
        That's easy.

        1) Weak character possessed by athiests and such.
        2) The desire to look modern in front of White people.


        Well there you go, there are flaws amongst persians also exist amongst Pashtuns , and mind you MOST of the Afghan Atheists/Commies were GHILZAIS. This is irregardless of whether someone is sunni or shia but just the mentality of the individuals.
        [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

        2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Nima Khan Abdali View Post
          Iran is great and has always been so; moreover, Iran has always been parental to every nation around it. Iranians are not miserable: they have seen harder times than most of the world's nations but managed to stand still, in its course. Unlike your country of origin (Pakistan, India whatever) the map of Iran has not been drawn with ruler and pencil by "sur farangyan" as you call it. Also, Iranians have been secular before this government. Iranians have always been secular. I can prove it, but it will lead to another forum catastrophe and I will be banned again, so better I not. One more addition, any representation of Islam is inaccurate.

          If you're not religious, it means that you're secular. But you are apparently not secular either (as you yourself also implied). So, what are you? A robot?

          It's very good thing to believe in God. It's extremely bad not to believe God. But it's even worse to show it off.
          No doubt most Iranians I have met are secular. Probably, it is ingrained in their Iranianism.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by al-arab
            But all I can say is that many Arabs are tired of the Iranian intereference on all levels.
            My friend, this is purely a political matter than one of ethnic animosity.

            The Islamic Regime is self-serving and self-fulfilling in this regard. The Iranian nation itself does not benefit from interfering in the Arab World, since arms shipments and idealogical support are outsourced from Iran exclusively without the input of the populace.

            Connections between Iran and the Arab World should exist, but they must be bilateral and aimed towards strengthening the region's economy and ensuring stability.

            The ayatollahs and some fervent Iranian political Shi'a support this hyper-polarisation of sectarian lines in the Arab World purely for idealogical reasons. Nobody else, including Iran, benefits.
            Iranian DNA Project (FTDNA)
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            • #21
              Al arab you are one arab ethno centric moron and no one is fooled by your underhanded self "boasting" of Arabs ruling others.

              However on the contrary Iraqi Arabs are followers of Iranian Imams.

              You're exactly why everyone on this forum hates Saudis
              [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

              2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by al-arab
                The Iranian regime is supporting and arming militias like this in Southern Iraq:


                The funny thing is that thsoe militias are not fighting for Persian glory but Arab glory mixed with nationalism and militant Shi'ah Islam.

                Which again is being countered by the Sunni Muslims and there allies (most of the Arab world). So it's half of the population against the other half. That said among the militants and their interests.

                But what is good is that in recent time the puppet Iraqi regime has cut some close ties and Iran are now complaining. At the same time the current Iraqi puppet regime are close to a removal (less than weeks ago there was proposals of vote of no-confidence votes).

                My stance on is that the Shi'ah Arab extremists financed by Iran in Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, KSA etc. should concentrate on their own Arab countries and not Iran since they will never get the full approval of the Arab people - even among their own Shi'ah sect nor will they ever be accepted by the Iranians themselves because they are Arab and Semetic.

                I am yet to be won over and proven otherwise of that situation.

                Just like we Arabs and other Semetic people should leave Iran and the Iranians alone in the region like Turks mostly leave Arabs and Iranians alone etc. That's my stance.

                Of course their should be mutual and good cooperation that can benefit all but if that's not the case then it's better to leave each other alone.

                This is just your narrative of events, not what actually happens. let me demonstrate some of your errors

                "half the population vs. other half"

                Iraqi Shi'a are over 60% of the Population; most admire or revere Iranian Marajaa. You can say they're "really Sada'ah Arabs" but they have mixed and intermarried with Iranians so much now. Also many Iranian "Sada'ah" actually just make up their ancestry, there is no genetic links to Arab So actually Iraqi Arabs are being lead by many Pure Persians.


                Even if we assume it is 50/50, Sunni Kurds are not apt for siding with Arabs of either variety. Some of them prefer Iran, only a small minority very small may have sympathies with Arabs in Iraq. These are just ground realities.

                Your view is one sided, Throughout the past 9 years, Saudis and Gulf arabs have financed suicide attacks in Iraq So even if you claim Iranian Shi'a are meddling in The Arab world, let's face it, You started it. So in reality you're instigating the Shi'a to seek Iranian help, and that's what you're scared of, because Iran would wipe the floor with every Gulf Arab state, when it doesn't have any support by their American masters.
                [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by al-arab
                  Did I hit a nerve? I know that Pashtuns are Indo-Iranian people and speak an Iranic language but I did not know that you are a Iranian.

                  You know that only applies only for some brainwashed Shi'ah Arabs in Iraq right?

                  The highest Shi'ah authority is Al-Sistani and he is based in Iraq and from an Iraqi Sadah family. The leaders of Iran are mostly also sadah originally from Iran.

                  He is not influenced by Iranian militant shi'ah Islam mixed with politics as a Iraqi Shi'ah scholar already explained in that clip. Period.

                  Who cares what people think here? It's not my business if some non-Arabs hate Saudis and people I don't know. It's their own problem if they want to be racists. The funny thing with all those people is that all their information comes from the media - they have never been to Saudi Arabia or any Arab country. And if they have they have only been their during hajj or umrah and staying in big hotels in Makkah.

                  Anyway this discussion does not evolve around you.


                  Iranians and Pashtuns have a common enemy; Saudi/Gulf Arabs, so I can put my differences aside with Iranians for the common enemy; the Saudis and Gulf Arabs who have done more damage.

                  You're the biggest racist here, Where as I can differentiate Saudis from other Arabs and not attack Arabs as a race, you brag about Arabs conquering other people in some underhanded attempt at an ego boost. So the racism is really yours. and you don't fool anyone. People hate Saudi arabians becuse Saudis in particular, not other Arabs have a bad reputation and it is because of what is in the Saudi national culture.
                  [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                  2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                  • #24
                    oh yeah about your comment about Al Sistani


                    assuming that his family didn't make up the claim of being a Sayed, which is common in 'Ajami areas this is his background.

                    Sistani was born in Mashhad, Iran, to a family of religious scholars, who as sadah traced their roots to Al Hejaz. Al Sistani's family immigrated to Iran, at a time when the Ummayads and Abbasids used to kill the descendants of prophet Muhammad. During the Safavid period, Sistani's ancestor Sayyid Mohammad was appointed by Sultan Husayn to the office of Sheikh ul-Islam (Leading Authority of Islam) presiding over the Sistan province,
                    If that is true this means Sistani's blood is more Iranian since after centuries of distant from mainland Arabs they would have to marry the locals.

                    So that proves Iraqi Arabs are actually following Iranians now.
                    [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                    2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by al-arab
                      Not really. Those numbers are controversial and everyone knows about it. Your main source of your knowledge about the Arab world (Wikipedia) even acknowledges this.

                      Well we all know that they are sadah and originally from Iraq like very many sadah families all over the world - even in Yemen most came from Iraq.
                      LOL, you once told others here that if they come from those 10-20 sadah families in Afghanistan then they are Arabs. And those few Arabs came to Afghanistan hundred of years ago.
                      That's because their transport from the Middle East has been recorded;

                      Men like Al-Sistani don't have the same records.

                      Those well-known sadah families that are rulling in Iran came from Iraq less than 200 years ago. That's about 5-6 generations. Many have married with other sadah families.
                      That's not true at al; you're just making up your own narrative with no reference to support it. Al-Sistani claims his family came during Ummayad times, which is over 1000 years ago.

                      The Iranians don't well a closeness to them and many even call them Arabs and say that Arabs are rulling Persia.
                      That's because that's whats hip to do in Iran to distance themselves from the Theocracy.

                      The Kurds are siding with the Iraqi Arabs. Not the Iranians. What the hell are you talking about? You don't know Iraqi politics. Less than a few weeks Iraqi Sunni Arabs and Iraqi Sunni Kurds sided with each other to try and remove Al-Maliki.
                      You didn't read what I said carefully I said some side with Iran, NOT all.

                      you live in fantasy land if you think Iraqi Kurds and Arabs are aligned with each other



                      Who cares? We are talking about Iranian meddling not Saudi, Qatari or anyone else. And I think we have discussed this already and I have acknowledged that fact every time.

                      I care because it shows Gulf Arabs are hypocrites.

                      But that's a reaction to the Iranian interference. Simple as that.
                      Iraqi suicide bombing was instigate by Saudi funded miitats.

                      Yes, sure Iran would wipe...LOL. We have seen that throughout history.
                      We're talking about now, Saudis hide behind America and Israel.

                      You really believe that a United Arab world (350 millions) would not stand a chance against the Iranian regime if such a war took place?
                      You guys couldn't beat Israel united, and that was 40 years ago.


                      Not sure if serious. And why are you talking about wars? The Shi'ah Arabs in Iraq also made suicide bombs and other horrible and un-Islamic thinks don't worry about that. But you have no clue so that's ok.
                      Majority of suicide attacks have been Saudi funded militants; if it was Shi'a then we'd see the opposite.
                      Last edited by RevolutionThroughReason; 07-18-2012, 10:49 AM.
                      [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                      2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by al-arab
                        LOL, are you still hurt because I replied to that Darush idiot or what his name was who started his bashing of Arabs? I only replied in the same manner.

                        LOL, that's only in your little twisted logic which only ignorants support.

                        Anway it's a waste of time discussing with you since you only have one stance and a extremely narrow stance when it comes to politics. I am not even going to mention the discussion we had about the problems in Yemen, LOL. If we compare Yemen to Saudi Arabia then the latter is like a diamond and the other like a stone by your logic.


                        I'm glad he bashes Saudis ..I hope Darius bashes Saudis more and every Pashtun should help him until Saudis feel how unwelcome they are in every corner of the Muslim world. Even Yemenis dislike Saudis, Lebanese dislike Saudis, Iraqis dislike Saudis.

                        Saudis should be made to feel isolated, alone and unwanted.

                        and why are you suddenly against Wikipedia? You use wikipieda all the time; At least Wikipieda has sources; you just make up stuff a lot of the time based on your own word of mouth with no references.
                        [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                        2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                        • #27
                          Not only Iranians some arabs are also really secular and not to forget our own peopel. Thats what you get when you force religion on peopel.

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                          • #28
                            Al-Arab, .....maybe JUST maybe, you're not welcome here?
                            [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                            2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                            • #29
                              Al Arab, we got involved because it was clear you were trying to show off to DMXX how you feel superior about yourself; why were you talking about Arab conquering Persians ? What did that have to do with the topic. that was just you trying to masturbate your ego to make up for your lack of manhood.

                              People can read behind your words, you're a dirt bag.
                              [QUOTE=Afghanistan2010;658085][B]He is no different [COLOR="Red"]than us[/COLOR][/B],[B]he[COLOR="Red"] blindly believes [/COLOR]in the words [COLOR="Red"]of other men[/COLOR][/B],:[/QUOTE]

                              2010 Admitting he's a blind believer not in God, but what other men says.

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                              • #30
                                How many of you think that Persians are our bigger brothers?

                                Lol
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