Giving it a break

[Toramana]

How do we define the modern national movements within the Pashtoon context? For example, the ANP are deeply embedded within the political framework of Pakistan - what would their ultimate objectives be? Can Afghans look to the ANP, for example?

I think Pashtuns should do every thing (peaceful) they can to preserve their identity, language, and culture. Although, in Afghanistan, imperatives may be different but autonomy in matters of economy, (local) development, control of idegenous resources, share in the center and federal institutions, language rights, etc. must be the focus on both sides. Federal bureaucracy should not be dominated by one group for share in resource-allocation to be more even.

Federal institutions and head-quarters should also be not concentrated in one city for broader availability and should be dispersed in a way to be accessible to all citizens.

Development should be even. This is more important in the case of Afghanistan where Kabul was kind of ultra-developed and the rest of Afghanistan deeply immersed in ruralism before the war. It is fortunate that Pukhtunkhwa is a small province, communication is relatively better, so development gets trickled down to villages (i.e., more or less uniform development).

The greatest challenge to Pashtuns is tribalism and FATA. I think that can be tackled with economic development and party politics which provides masses a way to raise above tribal affiliation and to pledge loyalty to a higher goal or ideology ( party manifesto).

On both sides Pashtuns should make sure that they are able to keep contact with each other and establish trade relations and do other gham khadi and rasha darsha (visa free).

As for ANP, I think it is doing what is possible in the current situation (politics is the art of possibility). They have been able to secure provincial autonomy and new name for the province. They are campaigning for reforms in FATA. They have organized Pashtuns in Karachi that were never organized that strongly in history before. Some people are criticizing that they are toeing the estbalishment line but when one ponders deeply one finds that they are doing the right thing i.e., ANP leaders know that it alone cannot force the Pakistani establishment to change its policy with regard to FATA, KP, Afghanistan, and terrorism ---and that, that job is being done by the rest of the world (baqi dunya pasai ghatta dandha raghastai da)---so it has relaxed its tensions with the Pakistani est and has focussed on matters related to development and governance.

In Afghanistan, they have Afghan Millat. I don't know how would a Pashtun nationalist party like ANP play in Afghan politics.

This bothers me for example. Pakthunkhwa House. Cannot make up its mind between English Grammar, Urdu Writing and Pashtoon sentiment.

They have used the Urdu "kh" because in Islamabad the Pukhto "kh" wouldn't be recognized by any one.

What does history say about nationalist movements? Do they motivate and galvanise people or do they end up breaking them?

Toramana. I too am seeking answers.

I think they i.e., nationalist movements help secure native rights and the right to self-rule. Beyond that it may end-up in imperialism whether disguised as democracy or Khalafath or any other aggrandized national concept.

[Alchemist]

You think peshawar is the centre of the world for pashtuns?
Even the name peshawar is farsi - pesh - awar - frontier - town. Even first of the pashtuns to come to peshawar hailed from west of the indus river. But jsut because of your own egocentricism, you choose your own city as the capital of a supposed "pashtunistan" that is exclusively for pashtuns. The word pashtun it self is even farsi - posht - e- ko - pashto.

But just because you wish to believe that peshawar is the centre of pashtun universe you try to give root pashtun origins there...when it is not. Pashtuns are more closely linked to Syncthians ....but you always try to link them with hindus and keep making references to a time when hindus ruled over punjab - Ghandhara...even your alias, Toromana, is of a hindu king. So I think if anything...the fact that the word Awghan and pashtun are synoymous is causing friction in your own mind because over many years you have come to believe in a western/indian link to pashtuns. Even with me you always say I am arab and not pashtun...but reality is that in Afghanistan intermarriage between different tribes and ethnicities is a normal thing. I have pashtuns in my extended family that don't even speak a word of pashtu...but they are yusufzai, hotaki, durrani etc...and there are even uzbak, hazara, qizilbash lines in my family - this is why we don't consider Afghan to have a form of exclusivity and there is no idea of a 'hidden chauvinism' as you put it....I even told you my paternal grandmother is from peshawar...but this is very difficult for people like yourself to accept as reality...so if you are going on a break ...its a break away from the truth.

[graveyardofempires]

That is the dilemma. When you use the word "Afghan" or for that matter "Pakistan", that places a huge psychological barrier in the minds of the two Pashtuns probably equal in gravity to the Durand Line itself (it is like emphasizing the Durand Line). That is why the non-Pashtuns or Pakistani or Afghan nationalists on both sides favour using terms like Pakistanis/Pakistani Pashtuns or Afghans/Afghan Pashtuns. The purpose is to emphasize the difference and divsion between the two Pashtuns and negate or down-play any common ground.

Imagine, if 1980s, hadn't they called Pashtuns from Afghanistan "Afghan Refugees" but "Pashtun Refugees", what psychological impact it would have had on the eastern Pashtuns ie., Pashtuns east of Durand Line.

It is true that the concept of Loy Afghanistan is dead. But so also is dead the concept of an Afghanistan where Pashtuns once had the primacy or centrality or the core-status. It would be an achievement if Pashto wins an status equal with Dari/Persian. There you have rivals that are increasingly more educated, more skilled, more urbanized, more resourceful, and culturally more productive not to mention also being on better terms with regional players and global powers.

What I foresee is, may be with cross-border trade and linkages and emergence of middle class and increasing urbanization in Pashtuns, there is a push in them towards greater national integration that may come in the form of some regional arrangement where all communities feel secure (not threatened by Pashtun unity). This i.e., a regional arrangement would be the best thing to happen.

The other thing I foresee with the weakening of Pakistani state and the strengthening of provincial autonomy, is Pashtuns of Pakistan becoming more avowedly "Pashtuns" and placing more emphasis on their Pashtun identity (not "Afghan" identity---In a way, Pashtuns of Pakistan are going to become more conspicuously Pashtuns than Pashtuns of Afghanistan). The provincial autonomy last year was a step towards that end. Already, the phrase "Khyber Pukhtunkhwa" is becoming a symbol of pride for people (esp Pashtuns) accross the political and cultural spectrum in Pukhtunkhwa even for those who intially had issue with it or opposed it.

Greater Peshawar Valley (Swat to Bannu via Pekhawar) togethor with Jalalabad/Nangarhar is all set to become the center of Pashtun culture, language, and politics not some Kabul Jan or Islamabad Jan (which though may continue providing a playing ground or avenue to Pashtun elite of Afghanistan and Pakistan for power-politics, recognition, and self-realization in terms of intimacy to the "sophisticated" urban culture of Kabul or Islamabad). As for Pashtun masses, they have to develop their own sophisticated urban culture in Peshawar-Jalalabad and Quetta-Kandahar valleys, the two Pashtun heartlands .

maybe the reality is not in your personal gain but you too need to be enslavd to the truth.

your analogy is totally false and is an attempt to make a destinction between lar aw bar Afghan and when you said Loy Afghanistanis impossible you lost all credibility.

than i guess we need to rely on taliban for this.

[graveyardofempires]

i thought you had a credible reason but it seems you are using emotional blackmale to forward you "pashtun nationalism"(oxymoron term).

[khushal]

You think peshawar is the centre of the world for pashtuns?
Even the name peshawar is farsi - pesh - awar - frontier - town. Even first of the pashtuns to come to peshawar hailed from west of the indus river. But jsut because of your own egocentricism, you choose your own city as the capital of a supposed "pashtunistan" that is exclusively for pashtuns. The word pashtun it self is even farsi - posht - e- ko - pashto.
.

Yes the whole world and universe is Farsi. When man lands on Mars one day, they will find cities that used to be in Farsi too. There are many theories how pashawar got its name. Its widely beleived it used to be called Purushapura and the Moghul emperor Akbar changed it Peshawar.

[KingKhan]

Yes the whole world and universe is Farsi. When man lands on Mars one day, they will find cities that used to be in Farsi too. There are many theories how pashawar got its name. Its widely beleived it used to be called Purushapura and the Moghul emperor Akbar changed it Peshawar.

Farsiwans already landed on the moon. Even the word "Mars" is a Farsi word meaning "Red Planet"

[Alchemist]

You all have to realize that Farsi is a language original to Afghanistan.
Even Urdu that most of you adore so much is rooted in Farsi and yes, even the Mughal's loved farsi, the iranians loved farsi and the Pashtun royals love farsi. Farsi in turn is based on Arabic...farsi poetry is known world wide just. Pashto is even original to Afghanistan...it migrated from the west to the east of the indus...by toromana thinks you are more indian than persian. Maybe Salman khan is...
Not only is peshawar a farsi word, so is Pakistan and Punjab farsi words...so if anything Pakistanies are Farsiwan-wannabes. That was my only point - that it is more likely for pakistan to assimilate to farsi/ Afghan culture ...if it were to break down in the future ..then with a "pashtunistan" that is farsi-free.
If you even want to see a khilafat, then it can't happen unless the legislative branch is based on arabic at least...since the Qur'an is in Arabic. This is why most of you are ignorant of Islam even...because you don't understand what is even in the book of Allah. This is why the Saudis and PAkistanies had the ear of the Talibs...because they could pretend to know more about Sharia than any pashtun.
A language gives you access to a culture - now adays pashtuns are more likely to learn to hindi and english for bollywood and hollywood's sake ...so whatever.

[khushal]

^^^
Peshawar, Panjab, and other areas were renamed by the Moghuls who were Persian speaking Mongloid Turks. Punjab had different historical names. At one time it was called Sapt Sindhu(land of seven Rivers). The greeks named it Paenta-Potamia(five Rivers) and then it was called in Sanscrit Panch-Nadd(five rivers) before the Moghuls named it in Persian Punj-ab and it has stuck so far. This does not mean that Persian was original to the Area. Even the Tajiks originally spoke a Turkic language before they became Persianized. Pashto is an Eastern Aryan language and is original to Afghanistan. The Persian Empire was never in Afghanistan and actually Darius hid among the Pashtuns when Alexander was chasing him.

We are all aware that Farsi has historically been very influential in the area due to its vast literature but stop with this Farsi as something superior and original.

[Toramana]

You think peshawar is the centre of the world for pashtuns?

Not as much as Persian Culture is the center and origin of the cosmos for some Dari speakers of which -as they think-all noble and sublime things out there are the extensions. Obviously, for those groomed on the glory of Khurasan-i-Buzurg and splender of Persipolis, it is difficult to imagine that things can exist independently, beyond the fanciful world of Farsi.

What I said was, Peshawar Valley and Nangarhar togethor will emerge as one center of Pashtun Culture and politics. The other will be Quetta and Kandahar region. Your Farsi egocenterism, unfortunately, is finding an issue with this and has driven you to find a connection between the names Peshawar and Pashtun and Farsi. But I can understand that. The Farsi chauvinism of some Farsiwanan is too overpowering for them to accept the right of other people to be considered distinct.

Having said that, I respect Persian/Dari lqnguqge(s) and appreciate the cultural and literary achievements of Persian or Dari speakers---and am a proponent of a political settlement and good relation (and common ground for development) between the two groups. Obviously, Dari/Persian speakers are one of the two or three neighbouring people whom Pashtuns have interacted with for the longest period of their history and with whom they probably have a common origin. I accept that Persian has been a lingua-franca in the past. But let people assert and develop their individuality if they want to.

It is good that one of your ancestors is from Peshawar. May be someday we meet in Peshawar or in Kabul.

[IamDZJ]

^i thought you were giving it a break.

[Toramana]

As for Greater Peshawar Valley (swat to DI Khan+FATA) and Nanagar Valley (Nang, Kunar, Laghman, Paktiya, Khost, etc.) being one of the centers of Pashtun Culture/politics, I claim this because these areas are geographically contiguous and have the largest concentration of Pashtuns (25+ millions) on earth that are economically and politically reasonably active. This area has one of the most fertile lands in the subcontinent (esp Mardan, Peshawar, Charssada, Sawabi, and to an extent, Swat and Nangarhar, etc.), water resources (rivers), oil & gas (in Karak), some indusrial development though rudimentary, educational institutions, health and communication infrastructure, etc.

Most importantly, this region has a cluster of Pashtun cities (or urban centers) that are hardly 3 hours journey from Peshawar, which forms its junction point. Peshawar itself has a population of 1.5+ millions, Jalalabad 2, 50,000 (2 hours from Pesh), Mardan 4,00,000 (25 minutes from Pesh), Mingora 3,00, 000 (2:30 hours from Pesh), Charssada 1,03,000 (25 minutes from Pesh), Nowshera 1,09,000 (25 minutes from Pesh), Kohat 2,00, 000 (45 minutes from Pesh), Sawabi 1,00,000(1:30 hours from Pesh), and Bannu 1,00,000 (3 hours from Pesh). Of course, DI Khan and Abbotabad have significant Pashtun populations. DI Khan is becoming more Pashtuns lately with migration of Mahsuds, Wazirs, and Marwats, etc. to that city. Besides this, villages are becoming mega-villages and towns mega-towns. I hope, with the provincially autonomy last year, more funds become available to develop these areas. And the same thing happens on Afghanistan side well.

There is already a fairly good road network connecting these cities. And in future, there are chances it would further be improved, which would give vibrancy to the population.

Same to a degree is true of Kandahar-Quetta. I am doing my research on that region.

But guys don't despair. I am in no mood to break states.

[Toramana]

OK guys, see ya one day. GBU.

[ComradePashtun]

Alot of bias rhetoric bro. Overall a good thread, although the title is misleading, keep it coming, it is sugar! ;-)

By the time Pakistani Pashtuns become just Pashtuns, me and you will be dead, in worse case scenario. Yes a certain breed of of couple of poets due to political fissures of certain period(s) were produced in KP, which are probably more read by Afghan Pashtuns than Pakistani Pashtun whom I doubt majority of them understand literary Pashtu vocabulary. Pashtu literature in Afghanstan is way more developed and ahead than Pashunkhwa could catch up with it in decades. Although Khushal Khan Khattak is a revered personality, it is more so in Afghanistan solely beacause of Pashtun nationalism which is an enforced state character that Kabul suburbs and bus stops etc. are named after him, not that in literary terms he is much of a great poet. And obviously it is more symbolic and political, just as down town Kabul square is named 'Pashtunistan Square'. There are dozens of Afghan poets whose literature is more informing than the complilation of Khushal Khan Khattak's poems. It cannot match the masterful tomes of Habibi, Benawa and numerous more. We still love it and it inspire us. But on a general not, we have a differnt set of Pashun natioanlism in-built in us, that is steady, focused and one recognised and commanding politics and events that is pumped from the heart of Aisia, in Central Asia. It is one that will relief you in KP with blood that you need. You see, it becomes incessant for some one like me when you belittle us with your Parsi/Farsi BS, there is nothing that is stopping us from what we want in cultural terms. Bro, we are not KP. We breath Pashtu from the day we are born and the more educated we become the more Pashun we become - unlike what is with KP Pashtuns, when some often would use Urdu jargon to aclaim a status that makes them look like a hapless morons for me personally as if they weren't even Pashtun at all. We are educated in our mother language from nursery to when we graduate from university. Pashtu in Afghanistan is scholary language of not only literature and history but is persistently revived and kept up with sciences. Pashtu is our national language and Pashtun culture and dominance is infixed in to every aspect what makes up Afghanistan in it entiriety. Curently we are going through majror challenges in Afghanistan, but believe it if you may we have recovered remakably. What you saw in the immediate term from 9/11 till 2006/7 was an aberration, soon will you realise and retrack back from your assumptions. Pashtu for us is what is Faris for Iranians in Iran, or Arabic for the Arab countries, or Urdu for Pakistanis. For us Pashtuns it is a language that commands all our affairs. Of course Dari too is a language that has equal status in Afghanistan, but non infringe one another in any way. It is normal for a Pashtun to reply to a Farsiwan in Pashtu or the other way around ot happen. That is not a problem, as you have already alluded to in your reply to Alchemist.

So I impel you to persevere in your analysis when you observe the imbeded stature of Pashtu in our Gran Hewad Afghanistan.

I am sorry but I feel insulted that you have so unfairly assaulted us. We don't feel the need for an alternative to "Afghan" nationalism.

[ComradePashtun]

I will reply to your some other misplaced analysis, each and every specifically when time permits. Take care, and I don't understand you leaving the forum. It doesn't make sense. It is a shame and I will miss you alot. Since you are not active, I don't feel like coming here as well these days. It is not the same forum, it is sinking.. in many ways. I hope it is taken care of by those who may care to.

[faye]

i'm working on it!!! you're next buster!!! now stop talking to yourself, he's gone. stop blubbering