Giving it a break

[Toramana]

With Afghan nationalism on the rise on this forum and Pashtun nationalism on the decline (rather somewhat unwelcoming) I am finding this place increasingly inhospitable to stay on (kidding). So, am deciding to give it a break---probably a longer one this time...
the formal good bye though would follow...

[єѕαρχαι]

Allah de mal sha mashra... Umeed de che taso ba zar wapasi oke....

[faye]

i would miss you toramana. who will feed me???

[tor_khan]

With Afghan nationalism on the rise on this forum and Pashtun nationalism on the decline (rather somewhat unwelcoming) I am finding this place increasingly inhospitable to stay on (kidding). So, am deciding to give it a break---probably a longer one this time...
the formal good bye though would follow...

Would be interesting to understand where the "disconnect" between the two is.

How do we define the modern national movements within the Pashtoon context? For example, the ANP are deeply embedded within the political framework of Pakistan - what would their ultimate objectives be? Can Afghans look to the ANP, for example?

This bothers me for example. Pakthunkhwa House. Cannot make up its mind between English Grammar, Urdu Writing and Pashtoon sentiment.



What does history say about nationalist movements? Do they motivate and galvanise people or do they end up breaking them?

Toramana. I too am seeking answers.

[graveyardofempires]

you must be kidding

[Nokia_Apridy]

Khatta sa da Khawro kho na dakegey....ka sanga Tormanaeya ?

[sahil112]

oh f*** sakes stop with these threadss, this is going to turn into those stupid appreciation threadss madness

[Gulbabo]

Ok, take care and have a nice time.

[khashayar]

[Toramana]

Would be interesting to understand where the "disconnect" between the two is.

Tor_Khan, thanks for this important question.

In my opinion, the biggest disconnect is in the conception of collective Pashtun identity.

For the western Pashtuns (Pashtuns west of Durand Line), Pashtun identity is intrinsically and inseparably tied with the Afghan state (i.e., historical Afghanistan) and the broader/extended meaning of the word "Afghan", which not only implies the ethnic identity of Pashtuns but also the civic identity of all the inhabitants of Afghanistan whether Pashtuns or non-Pashtuns. In this conception of identity, patriotism lays not in the assertion of Pashtun identity but its supression altogethor or sub-ordination to the concept of Afghanistan of which Pashtuns are the founders, the core, and the first and the primary/main owners.

Obviously, this concept of identity has origin in the psyche of domination/ownership, where the dominent community keeps its collective sentiment suppressed for its long-term interest or greater good (Can this also be called disguised chauvinism?). White Anglo-Saxons in US are an example of it who down-play the reality of Anglo-Saxon domination by over-playing and aggrandizing the concept of America.

For the eatern Pashtuns, on the other hand, Pashtun identity is in primordial existance independent of the making and unmaking of states (whether Afghanistan or Pakistan) and it is the Pashtun nation they pledge allegiance to and not one or the other state. So, they don't define Pashtun identity in terms of state loyalty. Moreover, most of the of the eastern Pashtuns don't consider the term "Afghan" to represent Pashtuns exclusively. To them, it merely denotes "citizenship" (of Afghanistan). On emotional level as well, they cannot associate with the word and concept of "Afghan" as strongly as they can with the word and concept of "Pashtun".

Furthermore, post-2001, most of the eastern Pashtuns don't consider Afghanistan to be the Afghanistan in which Pashtuns once had the primacy or centrality or the core-status. To them, it is just another multi-ethnic or multi-national state of which Pashtuns form one (but not the only) important component but where the Persian/Dari culture has the dominant status. In their view, Pashtuns have lost the core-status in Afghanistan.

How much emphasis do eastern Pashtuns place on Pashtun exclusive identity can be gauged from the fact that almost all the nationalist movements born to the east of Durand Line have used the word Pashtun (or the concept/idea of Pashtun nation) or some derivative of the word Pashtun to voice their nationalistic aspirations. For example, Faqir of Epi called his hypothetical Pashtun state as Pashtunistan. You can even see the word Pashtunistan inscribed on the flag for the state he envisioned for Pashtuns. Similarly, Bacha Khan and Abdul Samad Khan have used the words Pashtunistan, Pukhtunkhwa, etc. to express their vision for Pashtun unity and identity. Likewise, northen (shimali), southern(junubi), and middle (manzanai) Pukhtunkhwa are the common terms in Pashtun nationalist and political jargon east of Durand.

Moreover, these are the eastern Pashtuns that have produced most of the "Pashtun nationalist" literature (Ghani Khan, Ajmal Khattak, Rahmat Shah Sayal, Fazl-i-Mahmoud Makhfi, Sahib Shah Sabir, Hamza Shinwari, etc.). And when one sifts this literature, one finds Pashtun sentiments expressed using terms like Pashtun, Pashtunwali, Pashtunistan, etc. not "Afghan" or "Afghanistan".

It would not be an exaggeration to claim that the entire emphasis in Pashtun politics east of Durand Line is on Pashtun nation (and not Afghan nation). One seldom finds the word "Afghan" in the literary work, folklore, or other art-work produced east of Durand Line. The word "Afghan" is kind of foreign to eastern Pashtuns.

[khushal]

Toramana, you are correct. This is why I emphasis that the "Afghan" label should only be used for pashtuns in Afghanistan. It should not be lent to other ethnicities because it would be incorrect and wrong. But because this has not happened, Loy afghanistan is a dead issue. Pashtun unity would be extremely difficult.

[Toramana]

Toramana, you are correct. This is why I emphasis that the "Afghan" label should only be used for pashtuns in Afghanistan. It should not be lent to other ethnicities because it would be incorrect and wrong. But because this has not happened, Loy afghanistan is a dead issue. Pashtun unity would be extremely difficult.

That is the dilemma. When you use the word "Afghan" or for that matter "Pakistan", that places a huge psychological barrier in the minds of the two Pashtuns probably equal in gravity to the Durand Line itself (it is like emphasizing the Durand Line). That is why the non-Pashtuns or Pakistani or Afghan nationalists on both sides favour using terms like Pakistanis/Pakistani Pashtuns or Afghans/Afghan Pashtuns. The purpose is to emphasize the difference and divsion between the two Pashtuns and negate or down-play any common ground.

Imagine, if 1980s, hadn't they called Pashtuns from Afghanistan "Afghan Refugees" but "Pashtun Refugees", what psychological impact it would have had on the eastern Pashtuns ie., Pashtuns east of Durand Line.

It is true that the concept of Loy Afghanistan is dead. But so also is dead the concept of an Afghanistan where Pashtuns once had the primacy or centrality or the core-status. It would be an achievement if Pashto wins an status equal with Dari/Persian. There you have rivals that are increasingly more educated, more skilled, more urbanized, more resourceful, and culturally more productive not to mention also being on better terms with regional players and global powers.

What I foresee is, may be with cross-border trade and linkages and emergence of middle class and increasing urbanization in Pashtuns, there is a push in them towards greater national integration that may come in the form of some regional arrangement where all communities feel secure (not threatened by Pashtun unity). This i.e., a regional arrangement would be the best thing to happen.

The other thing I foresee with the weakening of Pakistani state and the strengthening of provincial autonomy, is Pashtuns of Pakistan becoming more avowedly "Pashtuns" and placing more emphasis on their Pashtun identity (not "Afghan" identity---In a way, Pashtuns of Pakistan are going to become more conspicuously Pashtuns than Pashtuns of Afghanistan). The provincial autonomy last year was a step towards that end. Already, the phrase "Khyber Pukhtunkhwa" is becoming a symbol of pride for people (esp Pashtuns) accross the political and cultural spectrum in Pukhtunkhwa even for those who intially had issue with it or opposed it.

Greater Peshawar Valley (Swat to Bannu via Pekhawar) togethor with Jalalabad/Nangarhar is all set to become the center of Pashtun culture, language, and politics not some Kabul Jan or Islamabad Jan (which though may continue providing a playing ground or avenue to Pashtun elite of Afghanistan and Pakistan for power-politics, recognition, and self-realization in terms of intimacy to the "sophisticated" urban culture of Kabul or Islamabad). As for Pashtun masses, they have to develop their own sophisticated urban culture in Peshawar-Jalalabad and Quetta-Kandahar valleys, the two Pashtun heartlands .

[BarakzaiAbdali]

With Afghan nationalism on the rise on this forum and Pashtun nationalism on the decline (rather somewhat unwelcoming) I am finding this place increasingly inhospitable to stay on (kidding). So, am deciding to give it a break---probably a longer one this time...
the formal good bye though would follow...

Well I appreciate you and your company and hope you took no offense. I have grown to like you quiet a bit and wish you the best. If you ever need anything I can provide, remember that I will do my best to help you. Were the chance to arise, I look forward to meeting you one day. Remember, we are brothers even though we have not met.

[Toramana]

Well I appreciate you and your company and hope you took no offense. I have grown to like you quiet a bit and wish you the best. If you ever need anything I can provide, remember that I will do my best to help you. Were the chance to arise, I look forward to meeting you one day. Remember, we are brothers even though we have not met.

Daira manana Barakzai...appreciate that...and hope we meet one day...

[Toramana]

Would be interesting to understand where the "disconnect" between the two is.

As for the origin of the two attitudes towards Pashtun identity, I think these attitudes/feelings (being Afghan versus being Pashtun) evolved under the influence of state-education system (in case of Afghanistan) and nationalistic politics or national/ethnic consciousness (in case of eastern Pashtuns).

The monarchs of Afghanistan were shrewd enough to emphasize the word "Afghan". That is because, although, historically the term "Afghan" has been used for Pashtuns but with regard to language, culture, and values, it is is absolutely neutral (unlike the word "Pashtun", which is a derivation or extension of the word "Pashto" the language of Pashtuns and "Pashtunwali", the value-system of Pashtuns).

With the passage of time, it became more detached from what was its historical connotation and came to imply any citizen of Afghanistan Tajak, Pashtun, Baluchi, etc. It also provided a convenient way to Afghan monarchs to assert their Pashtun identity or to be perceived Pashtuns (by the Pashtuns) while continue speaking Dari language and practicing Persian Culture. Additionally, it afforded them a way to convince/ remind Pashtuns that the word "Afghan" is the historical name for "Pashtuns" and that, they are the real owners and guardains of the Afghan state and that, they should place Afghan nationalism above Pashtun nationalism.

Under the ptronage of these monarchs, an aristocratic culture developed in the Afghan elite whether Pashtun or non-Pashtun heavily influenced by Iranian/Persian Culture. I think no one is as intensely or staunchly Afghan nationalist as the Afghan royalists including Pashtun elite and upper classes educated and groomed during the later Afghan monarchy (especially during the reign of King Zahir Shah). It was of course very patriotic on the part of the Afghan monarchs to have retained the integrity of the Afghan state and society with such tactics.

On the other hand, eastern Pashtuns after spliting from their brethern and migrating to the present areas of their habitation could maintain little contact with the western Pashtuns. They mostly lived in autonomous or semi-autonomous state (except for Peshawar plains and Bannu) and didn't give tax to any state whether east of or west of Durand Line. Even when Afghan state came into being, they became a part of it but for a very brief period (1763-1801) and that too very losely.


Later, they either lived under the British Raj or their own local rulers (e.g., State of Dir, State of Swat, etc.) or under the rule of Pakistan. Moreover, settled life on fertile lands transformed them by breaking or weakening their tribal structure and inducing in them aggrarian and feudal attitude/values. This helped them later in civic and political participation/organization and mobilization. The parliamentary politics, the administrative structures, and other aspect of modern statehood during the British Raj transformed them even more.


Even when they didn't live in a state of their own, eastern Pashtuns were one step ahead of their western brethern in many ways e.g., they poineered many Pashtun literary generes. The first three schools of Pashto poetry i.e., Da Khushal Baba maktab, da Rahman baba maktab, and da Abdul Hamid baba maktab were laid down by eastern Pashtuns. Baizid Ansari gave Pashtuns the Pashto alphabet. Moreover, drama, novel, short story, etc. were introduced by eastern Pashtuns in literature. Moreover, they were the first to launch Pashto film industry or to venture into Pashto journalism.

The movements for Pashtun nationalism also have arisen more frequently in eastern Pashtuns compared to eastern Pashtuns. Examples are the nationalist struggle of Baizid Ansari and Khushal Baba who is considered to be the father of Pashtun nationalism. Faqir of Epi is another example. Even the modern nationalist movements of Bacha Khan and Samad Khan Shaheed arose in eastern Pashtuns and were able to politically mobilize Pashtuns on a larger scale than ever before or elsewhere. It is due to the efforts of these elders that eastern Pashtuns are today politically more organized and are involved in party politics or civic activities at grass-root level.

Whether they i.e., the eastern Pashtuns were involved in cultural expression or nationalist politics, these were Pashto and Pashtuns that were the center and focus of their struggle and not any other state-defined identity e.g., Afghaniyath. Although, they may occasionally refer to their Afghan past and might have taken pride in Afghanistan as a Pashtun-ruled state but first and foremost they have called themselves Pashtuns and have given primacy to their Pashtun identity (not Afghan identity). Lately, Pakistan has tried to inculcate in them Pakistani identity but that is a transient phase that wouldn't have a permanent impact.