This forum has turned into a queer soap opera

[Gulalai]

lol! what is going on in this thread?!

[کیش]

If you wanna a debate, why does Abu Dawud talk about ****ing goats?

[randolph85]

[کیش]

You got that from Sherdog, right?

[randolph85]

correct!

[graveyardofempires]

i thought i brought the revolution or maybe chaos :P

[sahil112]

sangar are you against music?

[ScimitarXEdge]

I agree with Wrayun, fruitless nonsensical bickering doesn't serve anyone's interests. Arguments should only be levied when there is something meritable to learn from each other or to speak against things we find ethically/morally reprehensible. Not merely to mudsling. I have no interest in mudslinging secularists, I just want them to see the light.

[kakargirl]

I think I am going to keep the bag. Its very trendy.

lol sangar wror you just said the forum has turned queer, lol yet you want the bag , lol i can picture you walking down with that handbag lol.

[Gulalai]

^ that image does not work in my mind lol!

[BLS_1919v2.0]

correct!

I was going for Silva but it is harsh seeing the phenom getting knocked it. I guess Chael "trash-talking convicted felon" Sonnen was the only one that got close.

[شمله ور خراساني]

I agree with Wrayun, fruitless nonsensical bickering doesn't serve anyone's interests. Arguments should only be levied when there is something meritable to learn from each other or to speak against things we find ethically/morally reprehensible. Not merely to mudsling. I have no interest in mudslinging secularists, I just want them to see the light.

You are secular yourself. You put ratio as a criterion to judge revelation.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You are secular yourself. You put ratio as a criterion to judge revelation.

That's not secular, that's using God's gift of logic. Since God made 'aql.

It's not using logic which is Paganism, since those beliefs rejected logic.

[شمله ور خراساني]

That's not secular, that's using God's gift of logic. Since God made 'aql.

It's not using logic which is Paganism, since those beliefs rejected logic.

Aristotle was a pagan. He used his aql.

Did the companions of the prophet refrain from using Aql?

The problem of you secularists is that when you have clear and sound text in Qur'an you twist and turn and follow your desires.

This makes you a secularist.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The issue here is reality versus idealism. I have not had the chance to really get to know you Graveyard. My father hails from Kandahar and my mother is from a village in Pashtunkhwa. My wife is from Waziristan. So I am fortunate to have a cross border experience.

I think Bebe Shirin also has a father from Afghanistan and a mother from FATA and may have a similar experience, I am not sure though. So my mother grew up in Kabul due to her father being stationed there and that is how the cross border marriage, rare at the time, occurred.

What I have noted is that, like any society, KP is a complex place with a variety of views. What is notable though, objectively, is the high number of Pashtuns in the Pakistani army. What is more notable is that the larger component of the whole Pashtun population hails from Pakistan.

So I tend to agree with most of your ideological leanings. I think Abdul Salam Zaeef writes an astute point in his biography:

“Pakistan, which plays a key role in Asia, is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody’s language; they use everybody, deceive everybody."

With this in mind, you can see on here that brothers like Luffy, Shahbaz, etc are patriotic Pakistanis per the enticement that the government has laid out for them. Per the info above, it appears that a large contingent of Pakistan's Pashtun population identifies with this country based nationalistic identity.

I think Ghaznavi and I had this back and forth and saw eye to eye on it so I refer you to our discussion previously.

There are a few issues that appear to stand in the way of a united Pashtun front, even under the Islamic umbrella:

1) A large amount of the KP population identifies itself as Pashtun ethnically, but endorse Pakistan as its nation state. How do you deal with these folks? Remember, they are Yusufzai, Wazir, Mehsud, Some Abdalyaan from the Achekzai division, Khalil, Khattak, Shinwari, etc. These tribes have been in this land area for generations. For Khiljiziaan and Abdalyaan to tell them: you must join us and we have a right over your land and its destiny is going to be problematic for them. Refer to the fact that an Arbab Khalil tried to kill Timur Shah Durrani for the throne on a visit to Bala Hissar.

We cannot advocate ethnically cleansing our own, even if that means they are held hostage by a British invented ideology that only continues to serve imperialistic designs. I will explain more at the bottom.

2) There is an amazing dichotomy in Pakistan's personal relationship with the Taliban. The good Taliban are Mullah Omar and the bad Taliban are Nek Muhammad and H. Mehsud in this paradigm put forth by the Pakistani media. Here is why is this is problematic:

They allege that arms are coming from India to support H Mehsud and that the latter is just a trouble maker with anti islamic and anti Pakistan designs. This is a logical conundrum because H Mehsud appears to have been instrumental in organizing the Khost Operation against a CIA base with that Jordanian doctor. How could he simulataneously be deadly to the CIA (RAWs companion) and then also be in league with the Indian state? Rather, it appears that folks like Abdul Salam Zaeef and H Mehsud are of the same mind. They see a series of enemies and occupiers: 1) America 2) Karzai and 3) The Pakistani governmental nexus per the Zaeef quote above.

It is ludicrous for the Pakistani government to refer to H Mehsud as a "baddy" when his goals and that of Omar Hotak overlap extensively.

However, here is the rub: There is anecdote and there is evidence. I am about to discuss anecdote with you.

My wife has a good friend. Her parents married her off early to an abusive fellow. The fellow sent her back to her parents. My wife was lamenting the lack of judgement that her friend's parents utilized in marrying a high schooler to such a fellow withour arming her with education. In their comforting discussions, my wife wanted to point this out to her friend, that the fault lay not with her, but with her parents. I told her that this was not the wise way to go. Why? Because her friend was reflexively defend her parents and see that as an insult and become defensive. Rather, I told her that friend would take a year or so, but that realization would happen on its own. Lo and behold it did without intervention on anyone's part. Eventually, reality sets in when there is no common enemy.

So with the brethren from the KP side of the border, there is little use in demanding fealty to a broader ideal or a return to Afghanistan. A large swathe of folks will defensively posture. With due time, when a destructive North Waziristan operation is undertaken, and Pakistan moves ever closer to civil war... the Pashtuns there will, themselves begin to ask questions about what the benefits are of this confederacy?

The more we remain above the fray and avoid insulting their sense of patriotism, the more we bring them closer to ourselves. They will begin to see that we are not "kabulyaan" and that we have morals that they can identify with.

What is the other option except Pashtun on Pashtun violence?

So look at Shehbaz, Luffy, and others as a dose of reality as to what is occuring on the ground in KP. You have to have them around in order to gain a sense of what the Pashtun masses in Pakistan may feel (of course there are complexities with nationalists, Islamists, etc, but you catch my drift).

This issue is so bad that it actually permeates personal relationships. My mothers half of the family actually initially viewed us cousins as outsiders and "kabulyaan." How I disarmed them was with continued kindness, but resolute debate in terms of where the facts lay. What I advocated to them was that we only wish them the best and that each family deserves the right to fix its own house. Now, we have a great relationship and our discussions are based more on evidence.

Look at the discussions with these folks as a challenge! Beat them intellectually and bring them to your vein of thinking.