This forum has turned into a queer soap opera

[sahil112]

sangar you didnt reply to my question worora, are you against music?

[graveyardofempires]

The issue here is reality versus idealism. I have not had the chance to really get to know you Graveyard. My father hails from Kandahar and my mother is from a village in Pashtunkhwa. My wife is from Waziristan. So I am fortunate to have a cross border experience.

I think Bebe Shirin also has a father from Afghanistan and a mother from FATA and may have a similar experience, I am not sure though. So my mother grew up in Kabul due to her father being stationed there and that is how the cross border marriage, rare at the time, occurred.

What I have noted is that, like any society, KP is a complex place with a variety of views. What is notable though, objectively, is the high number of Pashtuns in the Pakistani army. What is more notable is that the larger component of the whole Pashtun population hails from Pakistan.

So I tend to agree with most of your ideological leanings. I think Abdul Salam Zaeef writes an astute point in his biography:

“Pakistan, which plays a key role in Asia, is so famous for treachery that it is said they can get milk from a bull. They have two tongues in one mouth, and two faces on one head so they can speak everybody’s language; they use everybody, deceive everybody."

With this in mind, you can see on here that brothers like Luffy, Shahbaz, etc are patriotic Pakistanis per the enticement that the government has laid out for them. Per the info above, it appears that a large contingent of Pakistan's Pashtun population identifies with this country based nationalistic identity.

I think Ghaznavi and I had this back and forth and saw eye to eye on it so I refer you to our discussion previously.

There are a few issues that appear to stand in the way of a united Pashtun front, even under the Islamic umbrella:

1) A large amount of the KP population identifies itself as Pashtun ethnically, but endorse Pakistan as its nation state. How do you deal with these folks? Remember, they are Yusufzai, Wazir, Mehsud, Some Abdalyaan from the Achekzai division, Khalil, Khattak, Shinwari, etc. These tribes have been in this land area for generations. For Khiljiziaan and Abdalyaan to tell them: you must join us and we have a right over your land and its destiny is going to be problematic for them. Refer to the fact that an Arbab Khalil tried to kill Timur Shah Durrani for the throne on a visit to Bala Hissar.

We cannot advocate ethnically cleansing our own, even if that means they are held hostage by a British invented ideology that only continues to serve imperialistic designs. I will explain more at the bottom.

2) There is an amazing dichotomy in Pakistan's personal relationship with the Taliban. The good Taliban are Mullah Omar and the bad Taliban are Nek Muhammad and H. Mehsud in this paradigm put forth by the Pakistani media. Here is why is this is problematic:

They allege that arms are coming from India to support H Mehsud and that the latter is just a trouble maker with anti islamic and anti Pakistan designs. This is a logical conundrum because H Mehsud appears to have been instrumental in organizing the Khost Operation against a CIA base with that Jordanian doctor. How could he simulataneously be deadly to the CIA (RAWs companion) and then also be in league with the Indian state? Rather, it appears that folks like Abdul Salam Zaeef and H Mehsud are of the same mind. They see a series of enemies and occupiers: 1) America 2) Karzai and 3) The Pakistani governmental nexus per the Zaeef quote above.

It is ludicrous for the Pakistani government to refer to H Mehsud as a "baddy" when his goals and that of Omar Hotak overlap extensively.

However, here is the rub: There is anecdote and there is evidence. I am about to discuss anecdote with you.

My wife has a good friend. Her parents married her off early to an abusive fellow. The fellow sent her back to her parents. My wife was lamenting the lack of judgement that her friend's parents utilized in marrying a high schooler to such a fellow withour arming her with education. In their comforting discussions, my wife wanted to point this out to her friend, that the fault lay not with her, but with her parents. I told her that this was not the wise way to go. Why? Because her friend was reflexively defend her parents and see that as an insult and become defensive. Rather, I told her that friend would take a year or so, but that realization would happen on its own. Lo and behold it did without intervention on anyone's part. Eventually, reality sets in when there is no common enemy.

So with the brethren from the KP side of the border, there is little use in demanding fealty to a broader ideal or a return to Afghanistan. A large swathe of folks will defensively posture. With due time, when a destructive North Waziristan operation is undertaken, and Pakistan moves ever closer to civil war... the Pashtuns there will, themselves begin to ask questions about what the benefits are of this confederacy?

The more we remain above the fray and avoid insulting their sense of patriotism, the more we bring them closer to ourselves. They will begin to see that we are not "kabulyaan" and that we have morals that they can identify with.

What is the other option except Pashtun on Pashtun violence?

So look at Shehbaz, Luffy, and others as a dose of reality as to what is occuring on the ground in KP. You have to have them around in order to gain a sense of what the Pashtun masses in Pakistan may feel (of course there are complexities with nationalists, Islamists, etc, but you catch my drift).

This issue is so bad that it actually permeates personal relationships. My mothers half of the family actually initially viewed us cousins as outsiders and "kabulyaan." How I disarmed them was with continued kindness, but resolute debate in terms of where the facts lay. What I advocated to them was that we only wish them the best and that each family deserves the right to fix its own house. Now, we have a great relationship and our discussions are based more on evidence.

Look at the discussions with these folks as a challenge! Beat them intellectually and bring them to your vein of thinking.

thanks for the enlightening post

[ScimitarXEdge]

Aristotle was a pagan. He used his aql.

Did the companions of the prophet refrain from using Aql?

The problem of you secularists is that when you have clear and sound text in Qur'an you twist and turn and follow your desires.

This makes you a secularist.

Hindus are Pagans, they dont use their aql, they believe stuff like that Brahma lives in heaven on his throne. Much like Wahhabis who say that God is sitting LITERALLY on his throne.

I'm not a secularist, I believe in the reliance of Islam as the governing system for humanity, albeit I don't believe we should teach such irrational blind litealism in every aspect of Islamic life.

As for following desires, what's more desirous of people who just want to blindly follow things like lazy simpletons, rather than actually having to use God's gift of a brain to tackle problems.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Hindus are Pagans, they dont use their aql, they believe stuff like that Brahma lives in heaven on his throne. Much like Wahhabis who say that God is sitting LITERALLY on his throne.

I'm not a secularist, I believe in the reliance of Islam as the governing system for humanity, albeit I don't believe we should teach

As for following desires, what's more desirous of people who just want to blindly follow things like lazy simpletons, rather than actually having to use God's gift of a brain to tackle problems.

It seems you've been reading to much Barelwi literature.

I adviced you before, and I will advice you again, please read some books. Especially about the emergence of kharijites and their transition into mu'tazillah.

I will give you a few titles inshaa allah.

[ScimitarXEdge]

It seems you've been reading to much Barelwi literature.

I adviced you before, and I will advice you again, please read some books. Especially about the emergence of kharijites and their transition into mu'tazillah.

I will give you a few titles inshaa allah.

No, actually this debate has been going on long before Barelwis came into the picture. the Mu'tazilah creed shunned literalism in terms of the Dhat Allah and his maqam and majaz. We believe Allah(swt) is absolutely pure in his essence, that even things like his sifat are only relational to his actions and not some co-eternal attribute.

I'm equally opposed to Barelwis and their ideas of "hadhir wa nadhir" as well, so trying to align me with them is just intellectually dishonest.

as for books about the Kharijiyah and the Mu'atazilah connection, please direct me to some literature, and also about the background about the authors of said literature.

Us Mu'tazilah don't takfir , we tafsaq. Where as takfir is very popular with modern Kharijiyeen, i.e. Wahhabis etc etc.

Keep believing God is mutajassoum and needs a throne to support him, you'll make the Khariji Mundirs proud.

[Baygham]

Hindus are Pagans, they dont use their aql, they believe stuff like that Brahma lives in heaven on his throne. Much like Wahhabis who say that God is sitting LITERALLY on his throne.

I'm not a secularist, I believe in the reliance of Islam as the governing system for humanity, albeit I don't believe we should teach such irrational blind litealism in every aspect of Islamic life.

As for following desires, what's more desirous of people who just want to blindly follow things like lazy simpletons, rather than actually having to use God's gift of a brain to tackle problems.

I am loving this beyond my expectations. Dear SX can you please prove to Shamlawar aka Sangar that you are a muslim, before you label the rest of us as non muslims. LOL.

Sanga hal dhay sangar wrora, we missed you. Please put some order in this mess. These folks are holding high this Islamic torch, when in reality they are not even muslims and followers of pagan practices like using aql and such. LOL

[Baygham]

No, actually this debate has been going on long before Barelwis came into the picture. the Mu'tazilah creed shunned literalism in terms of the Dhat Allah and his maqam and majaz. We believe Allah(swt) is absolutely pure in his essence, that even things like his sifat are only relational to his actions and not some co-eternal attribute.

I'm equally opposed to Barelwis and their ideas of "hadhir wa nadhir" as well, so trying to align me with them is just intellectually dishonest.

as for books about the Kharijiyah and the Mu'atazilah connection, please direct me to some literature, and also about the background about the authors of said literature.

Us Mu'tazilah don't takfir , we tafsaq. Where as takfir is very popular with modern Kharijiyeen, i.e. Wahhabis etc etc.

Keep believing God is mutajassoum and needs a throne to support him, you'll make the Khariji Mundirs proud.

This throne less God, does he indulge in other cosmic adventures beside pashtoon misery?. Does he keep a haram of inflated hurs (the regular size might not fit his highness). I am not easily amused, but wont mind dishing out some serious cash for a even a youtube grainy video of that.

does he travel or destinations come to him. His farts must be cosmic size, no puskhai typhoons will do, I hate to be standing in front of that.

I have way too many questions to be answered in one life time or by just one peghambar, God send a few more or tweet something, this 1500 year old stuff is way obsolete.

And while you are granting all my wishes, lay off the poor pashtoons, they are almost extinct any way, why waste your energy. come to think of it all our jirgas are routinely bombed by your suicide faithfulls but not one 'tus' in that liberation square. Where are your salafi jihadis, or is arab blood just more sacred than pashtoon.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

This throne less God, does he indulge in other cosmic adventures beside pashtoon misery?. Does he keep a haram of inflated hurs (the regular size might not fit his highness). I am not easily amused, but wont mind dishing out some serious cash for a even a youtube grainy video of that.

does he travel or destinations come to him. His farts must be cosmic size, no puskhai typhoons will do, I hate to be standing in front of that.

I have way too many questions to be answered in one life time or by just one peghambar, God send a few more or tweet something, this 1500 year old stuff is way obsolete.

And while you are granting all my wishes, lay off the poor pashtoons, they are almost extinct any way, why waste your energy. come to think of it all our jirgas are routinely bombed by your suicide faithfulls but not one 'tus' in that liberation square. Where are your salafi jihadis, or is arab blood just more sacred than pashtoon.

Ignore him. That is the directive of the Quran. He is just hurting himself at this point. We actually do him injustice each time we allow him to insult God further.

[Baygham]

Ignore him. That is the directive of the Quran. He is just hurting himself at this point. We actually do him injustice each time we allow him to insult God further.

BA wrora, ma yareega, Obama lala ba dhey thee rogh jorr saathi. Chi sanga ii oos dha kheeran watan dha dhoorroo na satha-lay ii.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA wrora, ma yareega, Obama lala ba dhey thee rogh jorr saathi. Chi sanga ii oos dha kheeran watan dha dhoorroo na satha-lay ii.

Ah another canard. How the heck did you get through med school with such a low level of integrative functioning? Did you pay your way through? I love the: well if you grew up outside of the country (which is Pakistan it appears in your case) then you absolutely cannot understand the area loooool. And Mr Karzai understood it so well right with his green curtain drapes that appear to cover multiple layers of bullet proof shields? For that matter, what of Omar Hotak who grew up there and, unlike a yellowback like yourself, actually fought for it? For that matter, how ashamed you must be that an Arab named Osama had to come and fight your battle for you on his territory.

Sorry dude, what makes Pakistan suck is people like you who in turn endorse feudalists like that ass clown Achekzai, pimp to another acolyte, Miss Taj Andersen. You sustain the dhoora and basically created a Bollywood Baliwaal Bhutto equivalent party to enslave your own people.

On my side of the border, that fellow Ahady tried to do the same with Afghan Mellat but it flopped.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BA wrora, ma yareega, Obama lala ba dhey thee rogh jorr saathi. Chi sanga ii oos dha kheeran watan dha dhoorroo na satha-lay ii.

For that matter its interesting, examining that thread where you and that Maseed fellow endorse eachother and soul kiss intellectually, that the actual used and abused atheist nationalist refrain goes something like this: everyone outside of Afghanistan (which you are not in mind you) cannot understand we are right...except when they agree with us.

Oh, but they somehow missed the galvanizing effects of religion on the Pashtun masses that every anthropologist/scholar from Tarzai to Dupree has documented independent of any BS agenda like your own. But, no, see ignore that... (by then you are stammering)... see they arent praying... why they are... they are... doing a variation athaan called the sajdaa athaan.

Give me a break. Your time is over. Your ideologies are dead. You have nothing to contribute. Your mercernary war is lost and is being lost. You know the war that you advocate for but refuse to fight in yourself?

Ill give you credit when I see you and Toramana with an M16 and an RPG fighting on the battle field against Mullah Omar and Mullah Fazlullah. Ill add some extra points to your exam when you go face to face with Hakimullah Mehsud.

Oh wait... I forgot you get others to do your fighting... the Russians, then the pakistani army, then the northern alliance, then the Iranians, and now the Americans.

[Fahd]

ok sangar ur wish becom real
now u have some new idiots in the site lol : ) oh ofcurse the old idiots wil breath again :p

[Baygham]

For that matter its interesting, examining that thread where you and that Maseed fellow endorse eachother and soul kiss intellectually, that the actual used and abused atheist nationalist refrain goes something like this: everyone outside of Afghanistan (which you are not in mind you) cannot understand we are right...except when they agree with us.

Oh, but they somehow missed the galvanizing effects of religion on the Pashtun masses that every anthropologist/scholar from Tarzai to Dupree has documented independent of any BS agenda like your own. But, no, see ignore that... (by then you are stammering)... see they arent praying... why they are... they are... doing a variation athaan called the sajdaa athaan.

Give me a break. Your time is over. Your ideologies are dead. You have nothing to contribute. Your mercernary war is lost and is being lost. You know the war that you advocate for but refuse to fight in yourself?

Ill give you credit when I see you and Toramana with an M16 and an RPG fighting on the battle field against Mullah Omar and Mullah Fazlullah. Ill add some extra points to your exam when you go face to face with Hakimullah Mehsud.

Oh wait... I forgot you get others to do your fighting... the Russians, then the pakistani army, then the northern alliance, then the Iranians, and now the Americans.

LOL, chi nookaran shtaa no khpala sala zan marr koo.LOL.

Mullah ba pa dhwa kaldharoo khaza hum kharsa ki, khaee pee janoo. Unfortunately the durbari mentality in afghanistan will take some time before the common man can see himself worthy of anything. In afghanistan you are either raees or an abuse victim. Since the raees posts are but a few 99.9 % are victims and behave as such.

In pakhtunkhwa this raees mentality has broken down. With a little help we will get up and will share in global prosperity, not fight for arabian honor which got looted long long ago.

As they say in pashtoo, "Chi mal wee no *** dha kalabata khpala razi" this is presently true in kabul and in peshawar(if mal ever came there). Mullah omar will line up towards kalabat sooner or later. Maybe kaaba wont have to be demolished in the process, but this rag tag army of lunatics cannot topple global order, stop dreaming. They can only blow them selves up, individually and collectively and thats all they will do.

BTW, I should call my congressman, we need more boots on the ground. Surge, surge, more drones, go after the backers in islamabad and gulf. Awesome.