GabariYusufzai/GhalchaTajiks/AndarabAfghanistan/LastofDinosaurs/SultanFaghalGabari

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Au dha lafse terrorist ba meenzh banday naachaay. Meenzh saraay pa tamaam zwind kay awajnalaay nadaay. Daa lafase meenzh bandaay dera baadh aulagadau.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Pakhtun khpala lara pa khpala pa negha jore...

Khabara da da che da khalak ta pa nor sa ke na she zer koly no de pa de kam zory ghara ye war oko....

Hardy a kam zoraay thing my brother. Every time a debate comes up you see anyone that has any hint of an Islamic nature or that are against foreign occupation as maligned as panjabee, ISI loyalist, or Paki. This thread arms those that are sick of this tired, used, and broken accusation to clearly note that panjabees may have sent us to be cannon fodder, but it was dostum and massouds men that raped our women.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I know Toramana personally. This thread just made me laugh lol. He is one of the biggest critics of Tajiks on PF and here you are claiming he is one. BarakzaiAbdali while you are certainly one of the most respect members here, don't make silly claims.

No body said he or the serial poster as it were was a tajik sitting in Panjshir writing these threads. The data does not say that.

Moreover, you do not at all have to be of an ethnicity to be loyal to its causes or link yourself to its causes through ancestory. After all, I, a Pashtoon, was accused of being a Panjabi.

What the data does show is that

1. you can comb google and bing using every possible combination of terms and you will find one single individual at 3 fora (the pakistani fora, the tajik fora, and here) discussing their lineage and roots with the exact same forfathers using exactly the same key words (gabari being the key clan of the Yusufzai in question). One of these individuals on the Tajik forum has his birthday in the mid 1970s and is in his midthirties. You are welcome to create a login and see this for yourself.

2. Here an individual has thrown insult after insult at actual Afghans who post here and love their independence and religion and view their down trodden occupied country men as oppressed, and he led and galvanized those that called us slaves of the ISI, Panjabees, and Porkis. Yet this individual is based in Pakistan and is identity card holding Pakistani. They pay taxes and have admitted here that they own land in Pakistan.

3. There is AN individual in Pakistan who is an exact member of that Yusufzai clan who proves in the snippet below he is Pakistani and who posts again and again and again on the Tajik thread (per the posts I made above). He appears to be the ONLY example of this and cannot speak any Farsi at all and does not do so on that site. But I will put that crucial piece of information here:

http://tajikam.com/forums/index.php?...miali-mitravi/

"Sohrab, on 05 October 2010 - 12:44 AM, said:
is there any website/forum for the tajiks of paksitan? i know one site for wakhi tajiks, but any other one? or do the gabars have any society?


bro gabaris are strong people like i told you before dont know about internet but we do have two MNAs and 8 MPAs many army generals and federal sectretaries."

4. Wrayun and I are called disloyal to the Pashtoons as well as disloyal Americans. This is a problem for us because just as we Americans have to deal with what we call fifth column citizens in the form of Alan Dershowitz, Eric Cantor, and Rahm Emanuel, who are actually Americans by birth and blood, their loyalties lie with their zionist ancestory and they embroil Americans in wars that serve not Prostestant and Catholic Americans of various backgrounds, but Zionist Americans.

In this same way, we have clearly shown above that this particular Yusufzai lineage is claimed per his own words by the individual in question. He does not at all (and cannot because of the lengthy record) deny this. This lineage is clearly and admittedly one that lays claim to Tajik ancestory integrating into a Pashtoon tribe, this is also detailed in the documentary evidence. Every time we hear the call now for a loyaa Afghanistan where we are the subservients of the Tajiks and Uzbeks we will always hear echoes of Cantor, Dershowitz, and Enamuel, except in this case the fifth column serves those interests foreign to the Pashtoons.

5. I have done you and this forum a service because you can search any reasonable political argument and comb this forum again and again and what comes up each time anyone with any hint of Islamic theological leaning weighs in or is defended, he is called a stooge, a panjabi, a terrorist sympathizer, or a Porki.

*Now, when this invective is hurled, there will be sufficient, cogent, and brutal evidence to hurl right back showing definitively that while the pan islamists may be insulted and called slaves of the Panjabee nexus that used and abused Pashtoons as as cannon fodder in their Kashmiri conflicts, the nationalists and secularists are organized and led by those that serve the gilaam jamaan that raped our women in the north of Afghanistan. I would much rather be cannon fodder than be subservient to the Fahim/Massoud nexus in any way, shape, or form.*

This thread, when referred to, will now serve to shut down immediatly and render ineffective those that lower the discussion to the level of insulting Islam without valid discourse on it, insulting those support an unoccupied by the West Afghanistan, and those that insult our brethren that hail from Khybar Pashtunkhwa and call them disloyal.

*It will ensure that the forum does not again divide and that you do not lose people to that silly defense forum. Each KP Pashtoon on the other side of the durand line will now have ammo to use should any of these guys step out of line again.

Why?: Quiet simple, because this individual admittedly has a lineage that is purely tajik and incorporated into the Yusufzai and is a card carrying Pakistani. Such an individual has no place to sit here and insult us, especially someone whose father hails from Kandahar, again and again.

[Khidr]

My cousin from Afghanistan is an academic and has researched this issue for nearly 3 years now but has yet to publish his findings/thesis. He would like to visit Kandahar, Helmand and Zabul before finalizing the thesis.

There are many natives “Tajiks” from Nangarhar, Laghman, Kunar, Paktia who have become Pashtunized over the course of the last 400-500 years of mass Pashtun migration into these areas. He went to Nangarhar, Laghman and Kunar speaking to people from specific clans of interest, and getting their oral version of their lineage and history. Some were very hesitant to discuss the issue and/or denied it, but to his surprise many from that specific clan/khel of interest confirmed their non-Pashtun past and were very informed of their history. Majority had a Farsi speaking past but a minority spoke local languages.

From what I remember, the Safi tribe for example has many clans which were native/Tajiks who adopted Pashtun identiy for social reasons. The natives of a thriving Tajik community in Gardez and Paktia area, and Asadabad in Kunar area have also taken up Pashtun identity today. There were many more clan names from those areas whose names I have forgotten now.

He was yet to visit Kandahar/Zabul/Helmand and get some real hard testimonials from specific clans of interest. For example, the ‘Sayyids’ of Kandahar are believed to be natives/Tajiks (whilst others maybe genuine Sayyids) who took on the ‘Sayyid’ title, and there were many suspect clans from the Greater-Kandahar region.


It's a fascinating issue but also a very sad one (from my perspective atleast).

[BarakzaiAbdali]

My cousin from Afghanistan is an academic and has researched this issue for nearly 3 years now but has yet to publish his findings/thesis. He would like to visit Kandahar, Helmand and Zabul before finalizing the thesis.

There are many natives “Tajiks” from Nangarhar, Laghman, Kunar, Paktia who have become Pashtunized over the course of the last 400-500 years of mass Pashtun migration into these areas. He went to Nangarhar, Laghman and Kunar speaking to people from specific clans of interest, and getting their oral version of their lineage and history. Some were very hesitant to discuss the issue and/or denied it, but to his surprise many from that specific clan/khel of interest confirmed their non-Pashtun past and were very informed of their history. Majority had a Farsi speaking past but a minority spoke local languages.

From what I remember, the Safi tribe for example has many clans which were native/Tajiks who adopted Pashtun identiy for social reasons. The natives of a thriving Tajik community in Gardez and Paktia area, and Asadabad in Kunar area have also taken up Pashtun identity today. There were many more clan names from those areas whose names I have forgotten now.

He was yet to visit Kandahar/Zabul/Helmand and get some real hard testimonials from specific clans of interest. For example, the ‘Sayyids’ of Kandahar are believed to be natives/Tajiks (whilst others maybe genuine Sayyids) who took on the ‘Sayyid’ title, and there were many suspect clans from the Greater-Kandahar region.


It's a fascinating issue but also a very sad one (from my perspective atleast).

Yes, I myself know a Safi family that used to govern Nangrahar during Zahir Shah's time and had just such origins.

Brother, the issue here is not the origin itself. It is the fact that time and time again, posters that express Islamic sentiment, posters that seek to build ties with KP Pashtoons of all views (and folks like yourself for that matter) within these sentiments, or posters that accurately state what appears to be the building sentiment of the rural and rustic Pashtoons that comprise the majority, against occupation by a foreign entity with a religious heritage that has no similarity to their own; are consistently

A. Maligned B. When their fathers actually have Afghan nationality as to the the UN defines it they are called Porkis, Pakis, Panjabies C. Their lineage is insulted and their tribal history is questioned D. When they are KP Pashtoons, they are harrassed with this invective to the point of leaving and joining places like pakdefence. Most tellingly, innocent people are accused of posting on other forums*

A cadre of people collect and start spewing insults that, if they pause, as I have shown, actually applies to them and could actually be utilized, definitively, to question their Pashtoon credentials and their loyalty to the Pashtoons.

It is like the equivalent of a black - white supremecist as Muslim African American comedian Dave Chappelle coined it here in this hilarious clip:

YouTube - Dave Chappelle - Black White Supremacist[/URL]

It is equivalent because AgnosticPashtana has noted that this cadre has even gone after Tajiks with some vehemence.

In the context of the video above, this then renders them the equivalent of Tajik Pashtoon supremecists.

Yet, nonetheless, they and you are or brethren and we will always view them as such. We will never question their loyalty or insult their zaath or clan or kabaeel or call them Porkis or Parsiwaan to lower the quality of the debate.

[ScimitarXEdge]

My mother is not even from Afghanistan or a surrounding country and my father was raised outside of Afghanistan, but when it comes to ethnicity I identify myself as Pashtoon and an Afghan.

I'm a Ghalji Pashtoon which according to certain sources somewhat alludes to the fact that my Pashtoon origins may not in fact be Pashtoon at all, although I am skeptical about this. It seems according to numerous sources that that our Loy Qawm roots stems from the Ghorids. However, I have strong inclination to believe that Ghorids were most likely Pashtoon or at the very least some type of Proto-Pashtoon given the fact that their language was not intelligible to Persian speakers but was identified as an Iranian language.

As much as I am proud of my Pashtoon heritage and admire it's legacy; I distinguish that with being ethnocentric and chauvinistic towards other ethnic groups amongst the Muslims.

With that said I follow the old adage

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"

and this has been most evident with those who go around brandishing themselves under the guise of So-Called "Pashtoon Nationalists"

One merely need to look at the years that Nationalistic Parties were operating in Afghanistan and see how many thousands of Pashtoons who actually lived a Pashtoon lifestyle and not some manufactured European-styled one, were killed, tortured, and disappeared. They allowed Soviet Russia free reign to bomb, demolish, massacre, poison, contaminate and eradicate Pashtoons in Afghanistan. Even prior to that these individuals glorified rulers who they postured as the symbols of Pashtoon nationalism yet violated the social principles and values of Pashtoons (and I don't mean the negative ones which any logical person should reevaluate; I mean values which are meritable regardless of situation) at every end in favor of European cultural standards and mores, out of some guise of progress that European Colonialist indoctrinated them with. Those who opposed them amidst the tribals of the Zadran and Mangal clans of Paktia were disparaged as "collaborators" with the British; albeit without any manifest proof to these allegations. All the while the imposition of European Mores and Standards upon the Pashtoons by these "praised rulers" demonstrated exactly what the European Colonial/Imperialist movement sought to do; Exploiting nations of the East by cowering them to their corrupt institutional structure. Whether it was done by Germans or British is irrelevant as the movement these cultures held were the same even if internally competitive.


Pashtoon Nationalists have exploited and degraded Pashtoon identity and heritage while claiming to represent and stand as the Vanguard of their cause just as Groups like Jamat-e-Islami, Taliban, Northern Alliance, Deobandi, Brailwi, Wahhabi, have degraded and exploited Islam. Of course even though I testify to this; don't be surprised if some of those Same So-Called Pashtoon Nationalists will try to discredit me by attempting to accuse me of being a Paki-Saudi-Funded Islamist...or some similar ilk.

Now don't misunderstand me; what I am saying does not denounce the validity of Pashtoon culture and heritage or even the right of Pashtoon nationhood within appropriate contexts of course; indeed Pashtoons have a right to preserve these and make sure these are protected for their own survival. But let's not be fooled that all these So-Called and self proclaimed "educated Pashtoon Nationlaists from educated families" really give a damn about Pashtoons other than how they can use them to placate their own absurd inferiority complexes.

With that said; I fully endorse the movement of Pashtoons against Pakistan, in fact I support the movement of anyone against Pakistan and their Neo-Colonial Masters. Not on Nationalistic grounds, not for the sake of Gran Pakhtoonkhwah, not because of some false appeal to Religious fervor; but because of the sanctity of morality and justice and a Stalwart against Neo-Colonialism and it's mutant sisters Globalization and Industrial-Capitalism. The same applies to India, as Pakistan and India are two sides of the same coin; anyone who disparages Pakistan but extols India is not sincere, anyone who derides India but praises Pakistan is fraudulent. This is of course not a vilification of the poor and exploited peoples that live in these countries but rather the institutions that rule over them; the poor and oppressed are the kin to those who cherish Justice no matter which nation or ethnicity they belong to. It is a vilification of the self proclaimed "educated elite" who take advantage of and use them for their corrupt agenda.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

My mother is not even from Afghanistan or a surrounding country and my father was raised outside of Afghanistan, but when it comes to ethnicity I identify myself as Pashtoon and an Afghan.

I'm a Ghalji Pashtoon which according to certain sources somewhat alludes to the fact that my Pashtoon origins may not in fact be Pashtoon at all, although I am skeptical about this. It seems according to numerous sources that that our Loy Qawm roots stems from the Ghorids. However, I have strong inclination to believe that Ghorids were most likely Pashtoon or at the very least some type of Proto-Pashtoon given the fact that their language was not intelligible to Persian speakers but was identified as an Iranian language.

As much as I am proud of my Pashtoon heritage and admire it's legacy; I distinguish that with being ethnocentric and chauvinistic towards other ethnic groups amongst the Muslims.

With that said I follow the old adage

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"

and this has been most evident with those who go around brandishing themselves under the guise of So-Called "Pashtoon Nationalists"

One merely need to look at the years that Nationalistic Parties were operating in Afghanistan and see how many thousands of Pashtoons who actually lived a Pashtoon lifestyle and not some manufactured European-styled one, were killed, tortured, and disappeared. They allowed Soviet Russia free reign to bomb, demolish, massacre, poison, contaminate and eradicate Pashtoons in Afghanistan. Even prior to that these individuals glorified rulers who they postured as the symbols of Pashtoon nationalism yet violated the social principles and values of Pashtoons (and I don't mean the negative ones which any logical person should reevaluate; I mean values which are meritable regardless of situation) at every end in favor of European cultural standards and mores, out of some guise of progress that European Colonialist indoctrinated them with. Those who opposed them amidst the tribals of the Zadran and Mangal clans of Paktia were disparaged as "collaborators" with the British; albeit without any manifest proof to these allegations. All the while the imposition of European Mores and Standards upon the Pashtoons by these "praised rulers" demonstrated exactly what the European Colonial/Imperialist movement sought to do; Exploiting nations of the East by cowering them to their corrupt institutional structure. Whether it was done by Germans or British is irrelevant as the movement these cultures held were the same even if internally competitive.


Pashtoon Nationalists have exploited and degraded Pashtoon identity and heritage while claiming to represent and stand as the Vanguard of their cause just as Groups like Jamat-e-Islami, Taliban, Northern Alliance, Deobandi, Brailwi, Wahhabi, have degraded and exploited Islam. Of course even though I testify to this; don't be surprised if some of those Same So-Called Pashtoon Nationalists will try to discredit me by attempting to accuse me of being a Paki-Saudi-Funded Islamist...or some similar ilk.

Now don't misunderstand me; what I am saying does not denounce the validity of Pashtoon culture and heritage or even the right of Pashtoon nationhood within appropriate contexts of course; indeed Pashtoons have a right to preserve these and make sure these are protected for their own survival. But let's not be fooled that all these So-Called and self proclaimed "educated Pashtoon Nationlaists from educated families" really give a damn about Pashtoons other than how they can use them to placate their own absurd inferiority complexes.

With that said; I fully endorse the movement of Pashtoons against Pakistan, in fact I support the movement of anyone against Pakistan and their Neo-Colonial Masters. Not on Nationalistic grounds, not for the sake of Gran Pakhtoonkhwah, not because of some false appeal to Religious fervor; but because of the sanctity of morality and justice and a Stalwart against Neo-Colonialism and it's mutant sisters Globalization and Industrial-Capitalism. The same applies to India, as Pakistan and India are two sides of the same coin; anyone who disparages Pakistan but extols India is not sincere, anyone who derides India but praises Pakistan is fraudulent. This is of course not a vilification of the poor and exploited peoples that live in these countries but rather the institutions that rule over them; the poor and oppressed are the kin to those who cherish Justice no matter which nation or ethnicity they belong to. It is a vilification of the self proclaimed "educated elite" who take advantage of and use them for their corrupt agenda.

Balanced, respectful, and sensical all in one; I commend you. There is no need for anyone to accuse you of being a wahaabi fundementalist etc just as there is no need for anyone to fire shots at someone because they are a Pashtoon that has a lineage that may tie into an ethnic tajik nassl. We are all one quam.

[Wrayun]

I agree with BarakzaiAbdali that what happened to him and unknown was uncalled for, and very distasteful. Some times emotions gets the best of us. There is no reason to speculate who is who on the net because there is no way to verify or prove otherwise. It's he said vs. she said. It is then best to challenge stated arguments, present your rebuttals, and give your input on subjects professionally as possible instead of wasting time on this petty issues.

Having said that, I vouch for Toramana that he is a staunch Pukhtoon parast who has rendered great services for Pukhtoons over many years. He has defended Pukhtoon interests against all their foes including Parsiwan/Taajiks at times when there was no one to defend Pukhtoons. He has always been very consistent in standing up for Pukhtoon rights and goals. Even with my disagreements with him on some issues, he has my admiration for never failing to rush towards Pukhtoon defense in their hour of need.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I agree with BarakzaiAbdali that what happened to him and unknown was uncalled for, and very distasteful. Some times emotions gets the best of us. There is no reason to speculate who is who on the net because there is no way to verify or prove otherwise. It's he said vs. she said. It is then best to challenge stated arguments, present your rebuttals, and give your input on subjects professionally as possible instead of wasting time on this petty issues.

Having said that, I vouch for Toramana that he is a staunch Pukhtoon parast who has rendered great services for Pukhtoons over many years. He has defended Pukhtoon interests against all their foes including Parsiwan/Taajiks at times when there was no one to defend Pukhtoons. He has always been very consistent in standing up for Pukhtoon rights and goals. Even with my disagreements with him on some issues, he has my admiration for never failing to rush towards Pukhtoon defense in their hour of need.

Agreed. He sounds like a wonderfully educated individual with how he feels the best interests of our people shall be met. However, I hope this sufficiently shows that accusations can fly both ways and can appear convincing, and are degrading.

However, in the manner of the mutually assured destruction (MAD) principle, and second amendment rights to defend one's self, I think this thread alone will gaurantee that this sort of accusation of dual loyalty daily leveled against peshawari/KP bros no longer occurs as now the Khybar brothers are armed to respond sufficiently when these particular brothers decide to utilize the aforementioned invective. This is not even one individual they are going after, it is a whole region. I have even seen it utilized against us Kandaharis calling us royalists and renegades and sell outs.

Each time that sort of thread is published or raised, like it was earlier today under the political section, where any large segment of Pashtuns is maligned and their loyalty questioned, I will not at all hesitate to utilize this. I could care less about the charge of not stooping to the level of others etc. That is unpragmatic and unrealistic and does nothing to ensure that these folks are sufficiently muzzled when throwing around their garbage.

This will bring much needed stability, and we will no longer hemorrhage Pashtoons to any other forum as this one appears to be well designed and the best one around. Everyone will have a jawab ready at hand should such idiocy reintiate.

[Toramana]

Hi, I am sorry I was away and couldn't respond to this thread.

This is really interesting. BarakZaiAbdali Saib is trying to link me to random individuals (and their ethnic backgrounds) in the Cyberspace just to prove that my ethnic credentials are doubtful. Anyhow, this whole excercise of determining/guessing somebody's credential on a cyber forum is ridiculous. In the virtual world like this, one's views are the best representation of one's sense of loyalty to a group or community. And that is really the indication that is important. As for the real-world, society at large decides whether to accept or reject someone's claim of group-affinity based on determinents like ancestry, land-ownershio, clan-affiliations, cultural practices, etc.


But the main point is, this is not an issue of identity perceptions. All the terms e.g., Paki, ISI, Tajak, etc. being used here are just metaphors carrying political and ideological perceptions and meanings. For example, a person whose views are more Pakistan-centeric or rooted in political Islam is likely to be called a Paki, Punjabi, or an Islamist. Likewise, those with Pashtun-centeric loyalties may be labelled Indian agent or Afghani or a Northern Alliance walla or a Tajak independent of whether they are pure (by blood) Pashtuns or not. So, here the question isn't that of ethnic validity or legitimacy...Rather it is that of coflicting idealogies and political views.

So please understand this thing and don't be oversensitive to this labeling thing. The same people who resent being called Pakis have been labelling Bacha Khan and other nationalists as Indian agents, commies, traitors, kafirs, infidels, etc. since the birth of the communal issue in Hindustan. Even now, any thing said in favour of Afghanistan in particular and Pashtuns in general might be called as an Indian, American, Jewish, Northern Alliance, etc. agenda.


Anyhow, coming to the point, as for I remember, BarakzaiAbdali Saib was consistently targetting Farhat Taj---the poor Pashthana who is not even present here to defend herself or say anything to resolve the controversies around her person. Then I wrote something and my intentions weren't making inadequate insinuations towards him....It was a very general post depicting the emotional dilemma associated with identity any body in diaspora could be caught in. BarakzaiAbdali Saib called me someone from a low-cast ( ). When Khyaal came up with this PakDef thing, I got a little bit curious because Barakzai Saib views sounded far more pro-Pakistani to me than an Afghan's view could be. But immeditely after that, when it became clear he is an Barakzai Pashtun, I never was in doubt and respected him.


The thing is, almost everybody here has labelled every other body here, if not explicitly and directly, diplomatically at least. Then why am I being singled out? I think the issue isn't ethnicity....The issue is something else...may be my nationalism and views are a problem....

[AgnosticPashtana]

No one singled you out Toramana. Its just BarakzaiAbdali, Unknownprince taking revenge for what you had labelled them. It's not like 100 members are in this thread attacking you.

You are a great member Toramana, do I need to explain more?

[Toramana]

But anyhow, I don't care how do you label me (Tajak, Jew, etc.) or what perception you have of me as for as my person is concerned. I am very well-contented with my status and social position. Moreover, I don't give much value to such things as clan or tribal affiliations or other social attributes. Fundamentally, I am not an egoistic person.

What I value more are my ideals and goals. I am a progressive, humanist, Pashtun nationalist...Pashtun nation and culture are my focus...Liberalism, secularism, non-violence, etc. are my ideals and Islam as a part of Pashtun culture is also my heritage. My primary loyalty is with Pashtuns ... other things (Pakistan, Afghanistan, Muslim Ummah, etc.) are un-important or secondary for me. I am also loyal to this Western country where I am being treated with dignity and respect.

Having said that, let me make it clear that whereas Pashtun interests and identity are an immediate reality/concern to me, humanity, which is much larger, broader, profounder, and long-lasting is my ultimate focus. I will never tolerate Pashtuns impinging on other people rights.

[Toramana]

No one singled you out Toramana. Its just BarakzaiAbdali, Unknownprince taking revenge for what you had labelled them. It's not like 100 members are in this thread attacking you.

You are a great member Toramana, do I need to explain more?

Thank you AgnosticPashthana for your support....Thanks all others as well for trying to moderate the issue...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Hi, I am sorry I was away and couldn't respond to this thread.

This is really interesting. BarakZaiAbdali Saib is trying to link me to random individuals (and their ethnic backgrounds) in the Cyberspace just to prove that my ethnic credentials are doubtful. Anyhow, this whole excercise of determining/guessing somebody's credential on a cyber forum is ridiculous. In the virtual world like this, one's views are the best representation of one's sense of loyalty to a group or community. And that is really the indication that is important. As for the real-world, society at large decides whether to accept or reject someone's claim of group-affinity based on determinents like ancestry, land-ownershio, clan-affiliations, etc.

But the main point is, this is not an issue of identity perceptions. All the terms being used here are just metaphors carrying political and ideological perceptions and meanings. For example, a person who views are more Pakistan-centeric or rooted in political Islam is likely to be called a Paki, Punjabi, or an Islamist. Likewise, those with Pashtun-centeric loyalties may be labelled Indian agent or Afghani or a Northern Alliance walla or a Tajak independent of whether they are pure (by blood) Pashtuns or not. So, here the question isn't that of ethnic validity or legitimacy...Rather it is that of coflicting ideals and political views.

So please understand this thing and don't be oversensitive to it. The same people who resent being called Pakis have been labelling Bacha Khan and others as Indian agents, commies, traitors, kafirs, infidels, etc. Even now, any thing said in favour of Afghanistan in particular and Pashtuns in general might be judged as an Indian, American, Jewish, Northern Alliance, etc. agenda.

Anyhow, coming to the point, as for I remember, BarakzaiAbdali Saib was consistently targetting Farhat Taj---that poor lady who is not even present here to defend herself or say anything to resolve the controversies around her. Then I wrote something and my intentions weren't make iinadequate insinuations towards his person....It was a very general post depicting the emotional situation any body in diaspora could be caught in. BarakzaiAbdali Saib called me someone from a low-cost ( ). When Khyaal came up with this PakDef thing, I got a little bit curious because Barakzai Saib views sounded far more pro-Pakistani than an Afghan's view could be. But immeditely after that, when it became clear he is an Barakzai Pashtun, I never was in doubt.

The thing is, almost everybody here has labelled every other body if not explicitly and directly, diplomatically at least. Then why am I being singled out? I think the issue isn't ethnicity....The issue is something else...may be my nationalism is a problem....

1. Regarding Farhat Taj ANDERSEN, she is for all intents and purpose a Bangash and a born pure Pashtoon in the same way Karzai is. However, Farhat Taj ANDERSEN married outside the qaum to a non Muslim. She shed her Pashtun identity completely and made the extremist claim that folks in FATA look foward to drones flying above their heads and killing their people. Her actions completely accords with my claim that nonpashtoons or those that become fifth column pashtoons not speak for the actual pashtoon populace on the ground. I questioned her agenda and her claims of being an honest representative of the rural Pashtoon that goes to his moonzoona at the local masjid in Wana and works in the fields the rest of the day. However, Zar, Zameen, Zan and all our mannerisms and Pashtoonwali make it apparent that we do not easily accept our women marrying out, even to other Muslims, how could any hot blooded Pashtoon accept her marrying a non Muslim, writing with anethema to Islam to supplement that action, and then claim that she honestly depicts the the average pashtoon that will never tolerate a single action to malign the personage of the Prophet.

2. It is exactly that portion of the statement that you wrote above starting with the statement that starts with Pan Islamists and Pakis or Panjabies are equivalent that goes on to say that pro Pashtun folks are ipso facto viewed as pro Afghan that I take exception to. I have congently and consistently stated that I do not support the Pakistani state. I could care less if it dissolved today. But I do care for my brethren that at least have some basic needs currently met. Go take a trip into any village right across the Afghan border near Quettaay wrorre, they are burning trash to heat their tents and are scavenging for food in their villages. I want any transition to a Pashtunistan to be smooth, done with as little blood shed of my brothers as possible, and be the best thing for us all.

Just as one cannot go and call you a kaafir or a nonMuslim for calling various Muslims in history Imperialists just because you are pointing out a historical fact of matter, one cannot simply go and ignore important facets of history when it comes to the Afghan Pakistan inter relationship if you wish to be honest brokers of Pan pashtunism. Why is that AmirGhaznavi, an atheist, completely understood the gist of what I and others wrote in the thread "Barakzai What You Stand For" that you intiated when he noted also that we have to right by our brothers in all of Pashtunkhwa.

Moreover, I hardly think that folks like Mullah Omar or Abdul Rasul Sayyaf view themselves as Pakistanis or anti Pashtoon in any way. They may be pan islamists but they do not view themselves as closet Panjabies.

And forget Pan Islamism and caliphate, which any sane person will admit are pipe dreams in the present situation. I am simply pointing out that any hint of any Islamic inclination is ipso facto condemend as anti Pashtoon and Pakistani centric. This shuts down discussion and puts people with viable comments on the defensive.

For that matter complex views are posted, like Wrayun's and Scimitar's, which vary drastically from one another yet are steeped in anti western imperialsm as a common link. The former is by no means a pan Islamist and has even endorsed secularism if the people want it and has disavowed Taliban repeatedly and the latter is vehemently anti ISI and anti Pakistan to the point of advocating for the fall of the Pak Government but is ardently Pro Islam; yet both are called Panjabies, Pakis, etc.

3. Once again, I commend your nationalism, it is no problem. You and I are on even footing now and we will move forward as colleagues and brothers. We all are pro pashtoon here brother, don't you get it? That is why we are here. This forum should show you how diverse our community is.

I guess the best way to convey to you how you come across is this: When you made the statement to counter the others that there have been Imperialist Muslims, you have a reasonable point in the form of even our own fore father Ahmad Shah Baba who we love, but who raided India again and again to support our Afghan treasury. Ghaznavi smashed the Shiva idol in India and smashed the Gates of Somnoth. Timur piled heads up in pyramids. There are facts of history brother. We all, as Muslims, have to be cognizant of how unMuslim some of these folks acted when we compare them to our beloved Prophet Muhammad (S) who rode into Makkah on a camel and lowered his head in humility, sparing all those in various quarters of Makkah. Now, when I read your statements that is the sense I get from your words. You are trying to give your fellow Muslims a reality check and I respect you for that. I cut you the benefit of the doubt and would never lower myself to call you a Kaafir; in fact, Islam demands that we avoid these terminologies.

Yet, I want that same respect from you brother when I point out how false and unrealistic beliefs on the Afghan Pakistani relationship WEAKEN our cause. You are welcomed to disagree with that view, but please do so as an academic and without throwing out the charge of Paki, maligning our quam and zaath, calling us terrorists, and referring to us as Panjabies.

I want that izaat and ikhthiraum for Wrayun and others that have diverse views that are not all in one camp.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

No one singled you out Toramana. Its just BarakzaiAbdali, Unknownprince taking revenge for what you had labelled them. It's not like 100 members are in this thread attacking you.

You are a great member Toramana, do I need to explain more?

Absolutely, it was badal for an ignorant statement purely and simply. Unknown Prince had nothing to do with it except to read and comment on it. I detailed the links above in prior response to you and you could produce no simple retort because you have none. You are merely acting as a cheerleader and have nothing important to contribute to this except that. You can continue to pantomime Toramana but it does nothing to reflect your lack of contribution or your capability to defend against the charge.