PF Loya Jirga: A Question to the Forum as a Whole about US Army Postings

[BarakzaiAbdali]

i dont see that happening,.

except for what you have stated there(which is enough)why in the hell would the PF big boys want to do it.

Well I mean there are so many examples of this. I thought one of the forum rules was what I stated above... for instance, if I was the CEO of Deutsche Bank I could not come here and post DB articles and DB ads and DB recruiting tips... and if DB was under fire, I thought since I would be posting as a corporate entity, the rule was that I could not do so.

In this way, Noorzai is a CENTCOM rep, posting CENTCOM action statements and CENTCOM admitted propaganda pieces.

This is not Noorzai going to some website like Toramana does and reading an article, digesting it, and posting it and then debating it.

This is Noorzai basically using a bullhorn to broadcast his view. His statement itself may get him some curses back etc. but its original intent is not to engage in discussion at all. Its basically... the equivaelnt of a US military series of Deutsche Bank ads.

Moreover, the Gaurdian and NPR articles are hard to dismiss and he is playing by the letter to what they describe. That in and of itself is sickening.

If the Forum was adopted by the Taliban as a strategy bullhorn, it would be immediatly hit and all its moderators arrested and members hunted down. As a result, the official statement exists that PF is not the place for that sort of exchange.

When Miawand posts something, he finds it on CBS news, or some Afghan paper etc.

So just as one side of the conflict cannot take advantage of the forum, so too should the other be discouraged from doing so in an official capacity.

And note, I did not ever call for an MDresden ban ever. This is more serious per the articles and what they entail.

[tor_khan]

BarakzaiAbdali and Zmarak. Salaam to you both.

The issues raised are in fact very pertinent. Outside of offering a platform for Pashtuns in the disapora and from either side of the Durand to come together, the 'mission intent' of the forum is to hopefully serve as a cultural library/repository of debate. More generally Admin and I support dialogue and unity for our people, and the wider civic development that stems from that. Beyond that, whilst we explore politics and ask searching political questions, we do not actively or passively serve to promote a party political agenda.

Is it possible that various intelligence groups are monitoring/watching and covertly setting up user accounts to steer their own agendas? The honest truth is that neither Admin nor I can offer any guarantee that a Member/User is who they say they are. I have periodically reminded the board (see Announcement dated 03-19-2011) to understand that whilst we bond with one another and explore ideas, the global war on terror focusses very much on Pashtuns. Whilst the particular posting that I have linked to here points to the use of personal images, the text of the announcement refers to a wider problem of 'trust'. Being on the Internet we are in effect almost inside a goldfish bowl and knowing that perhaps, should remind us that we have a responsibility to think carefully about what we say and how we wish to project our community.

On the note about military personnel/subversive individuals etc. covertly filtering in; IP searches can sometimes be unreliable, however, I believe it is appropriate for me to share with the community that there have been instances when attempts by individuals to slip through have been picked up. We have previously refused permission and financial incentives for 'recruitment' drives for those wishing to tap into our language potential, the bottom line being, we wish to remain independent.

The article, Barakzai, is one that I will read InshAllah.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali and Zmarak. Salaam to you both.

The issues raised are in fact very pertinent. Outside of offering a platform for Pashtuns in the disapora and from either side of the Durand to come together, the 'mission intent' of the forum is to hopefully serve as a cultural library/repository of debate. More generally Admin and I support dialogue and unity for our people, and the wider civic development that stems from that. Beyond that, whilst we explore politics and ask searching political questions, we do not actively or passively serve to promote a party political agenda.

Is it possible that various intelligence groups are monitoring/watching and covertly setting up user accounts to steer their own agendas? The honest truth is that neither Admin nor I can offer any guarantee that a Member/User is who they say they are. I have periodically reminded the board (see Announcement dated 03-19-2011) to understand that whilst we bond with one another and explore ideas, the global war on terror focusses very much on Pashtuns. Whilst the particular posting that I have linked to here points to the use of personal images, the text of the announcement refers to a wider problem of 'trust'. Being on the Internet we are in effect almost inside a goldfish bowl and knowing that perhaps, should remind us that we have a responsibility to think carefully about what we say and how we wish to project our community.

On the note about military personnel/subversive individuals etc. covertly filtering in; IP searches can sometimes be unreliable, however, I believe it is appropriate for me to share with the community that there have been instances when attempts by individuals to slip through have been picked up. We have previously refused permission and financial incentives for 'recruitment' drives for those wishing to tap into our language potential, the bottom line being, we wish to remain independent.

The article, Barakzai, is one that I will read InshAllah.

Salamoona Tor Khan Mashr Saheb

I am glad you initiated the jirga. I think this aspect of PF is what makes it valuable.

The issue with the Noorzai account is that it openly accepts on its own banner that it is CENTCOM. The dual posting of Pashto messages coupled to English messages is even more evidence of the fact that this individual is indeed US Army affiliated and serving in an official capacity.

And once again, just as we welcomed MDresden and we even engaged him in civil debate to the point where he became upset and started threatening members... I think its well in line with your mission statement for someone to enter in such a capacity as MDresden initially appeared to do.

The Noorzai Jahan account on the other hand is by its own verbage and its own banner a strategy tool.

If you arrange nearly 99% of his posts occur when an event occurs in Afghanistan proper and damage control or propaganda offensives need to occur.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

A while back there was a poster that was putting up pictures of downed US troops and the forum as a whole agreed that this person, very likely had some links there and he was immediatly banned.

I am very glad that these recruitment offers are turned down as it ensures a nice environment in which all of us can air our opinions in a reasonably safe way.

[tor_khan]

Barakzai, I thank you for bringing this matter to our attention. The recruiters for language skills have been refused since the early days and now and then come back, to the same answer of refusal.

[Admin Khan]

Respected Barakzai Sahab,

Just to add to what tor_khan mashar said, we have been offered an excessive amount of money over and over again, and we have refused it. Heck, if I tell you the offers you would be shocked. Money, however, isn't our motivation -- knowledge is. We seek to set up a community where an archive of intelligent posts can be stored for our future generations. That way, if our children ever needs to look for his/her history, literature, or language, PF will have it all. They won't have to scramble around thousands of sites. PF will be a one stop all.

We don't wish to sell our community in any form or shape. We have had those 'linguist organizations' join, and I can assure you that they have been banned immediately. We don't permit people to take advantage of our user base for their own strategic agenda.

We wish to remain neutral, and that's exactly why we have grown. Had we been a Pro Army, or Pro Taliban forum, we wouldn't be witnessing the growth we had in such a short time.


Our fellow Admin, tor_khan, will resolve any concerns you have brother.

Also, I am deeply offended by your "even though I am unimportant" comment. You are a priceless gem of PF. You and I both know that. Stop being so humble young man.

[Alchemist]

I don't see Noorzai as a threat in any shape or form.

In fact I am amused by his presence. We've had a few good laughs at his expense. I remember a member once made a parody of his posts in good taste. No one bothers to read his threads as far as I have seen. Banning him would mean that we have something to hide - which we don't. Our debates are rational and critical (at least mines). We don't tolerate hate and we don't encourage prejudicial views. What is just is right is true and will always prevail.



Regardless, you know the saying - "keep my enemies closer..." lol (note to anti-terrorist US cyber spy: jk ;p )

[randolph85]

stupid people can be tolerated as long as they stay within the forum rule guidelines, but **** like noorzai who are here out of official capacity via prostitution of their dignity should have no place here.

i am pretty sure its a real person instead of a bot because i have gotten a few responses from him regarding my opinion of him and his stories.

people here are already probably under the microscope of government agencies as it is. keeping out the "official" centcom, talib, paki, or whatever voices is probably for the best.

its not uncommon for a joke or something on a forum like this to be seen as a threat and for there to be some government agency response. the less provocation from people like mr centcom, the better.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Respected Barakzai Sahab,

Just to add to what tor_khan mashar said, we have been offered an excessive amount of money over and over again, and we have refused it. Heck, if I tell you the offers you would be shocked. Money, however, isn't our motivation -- knowledge is. We seek to set up a community where an archive of intelligent posts can be stored for our future generations. That way, if our children ever needs to look for his/her history, literature, or language, PF will have it all. They won't have to scramble around thousands of sites. PF will be a one stop all.

We don't wish to sell our community in any form or shape. We have had those 'linguist organizations' join, and I can assure you that they have been banned immediately. We don't permit people to take advantage of our user base for their own strategic agenda.

We wish to remain neutral, and that's exactly why we have grown. Had we been a Pro Army, or Pro Taliban forum, we wouldn't be witnessing the growth we had in such a short time.


Our fellow Admin, tor_khan, will resolve any concerns you have brother.

Also, I am deeply offended by your "even though I am unimportant" comment. You are a priceless gem of PF. You and I both know that. Stop being so humble young man.

Manena Admin Khan

Dont think I was accusing PF of affiliations.

Its merely that in this day in age, might is right. The down trodden whether they are the Mehsud IDPs that Soldat Maseed feels for, or whether they are FARC rebels in Columbia, or whether they are people who fled their homeland automatically lose their voice. They become the enemy "other."

And if we like it or not, the net plays by the rules of the dominant force except in the capable hands of folks like Anonymous and Assange. And even they are denied an official voice. They are destroyed (e.g. case of Mr. Assange).

In our comfort, and I emphasize our because I am guilty of this... we become forgetful of our history lessons, and we, in order to simply survive and not be wrongfully accused or have done to us what is being done to 90 year old farmers turned over by Dostum, accept the status quo. In this state, the voice of the mighty, because it faces no reprecussions, sounds out and is declared lawful, not by the laws of right and wrong, but by fiat. Voices of reason, except if they belong to people who tell the truth from among the empire makes, as in Mr. Paul, Dr. Scheuer, can still say some words, but even they face calumny and humiliations just for thinking and feeling for others.

I imagine it was the same in the time of the native Americans here. People probably saw the prayer towns they were forced into (and killed in) and people probably saw the massacre at wounded knee and did not agree with it... but the government was too strong... after all, it was not they, the onlookers, that did the massacre to the red man. And they learned that it was even better just to keep quiet. Wasn't their problem.

I applaud Harvard when it gave the Vietnemese a voice, and when it gave the defenders of non aggression and nonintervention a refuge alongside the pro war crowd to debate the merits and demerits of that Asian conflict; and gave a refuge to those that did not want to see this might makes right paradigm play out everywhere. Moreover, the American colleges did so in a peaceful way. In fact, Kent State suffered the deaths of college students for peacefully protesting against the Vietnam war.

It is my hope that this jirga goes the way of Harvard University.

Whatever the outcome, we accept the will of the jirga and majlis.

[Amir al Ghaznavi]

I would like to thank Barakzai saheb for bringing this thread to my attention

I am extremely for free speech, and I believe even pro Karzai, anti Pashtun, pro US voices should be allowed as long as theyre willing to exchange in proper debate and arguments

now Noorzai of course just posts messages he doesnt take part in debates, and we all are fairly certain hes not even a real person

having said that, we all know this Noorzai poster is centcom related he advertises as such, and with or without Noorzai posting this forum is already monitored.

i see the logic in banning him, but i also enjoy the fact that everytime this bot posts he gets punked off. i like the fact that some gi joe is reading those responses telling him to go **** off

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I would like to thank Barakzai saheb for bringing this thread to my attention

I am extremely for free speech, and I believe even pro Karzai, anti Pashtun, pro US voices should be allowed as long as theyre willing to exchange in proper debate and arguments

now Noorzai of course just posts messages he doesnt take part in debates, and we all are fairly certain hes not even a real person

having said that, we all know this Noorzai poster is centcom related he advertises as such, and with or without Noorzai posting this forum is already monitored.

i see the logic in banning him, but i also enjoy the fact that everytime this bot posts he gets punked off. i like the fact that some gi joe is reading those responses telling him to go **** off

Ah the Amir is here, now its a real jirga...

The crazy thing here is how much money the US is probably wasting on this effort that could have gone to paying for the people's medical care or this guy's prostatectomy.

Think about it: There is not one person here on PF I have met who is not strongly opinionated about certain world figures, about certain current affairs, etc. Their opinions are cemented. Slight changes might occur... but in general I doubt you will ever get Soldat to think Mullah Omar is an all around good guy and I doubt this guy will ever get Unknown to think that Petreus means well. It just wont happen.

Of course we all learn little tid bits of history, but generally either most folks buttress their opinion here or they move on to the next topic.

He does get the fact that the odds are stacked against him like this (an example from the Arab world):

Tahrir Square: .01% of Egyptians... wearing t shirts, doing facebook, perhaps a portion of the liberal elite

Rest of Egypt: Poor villagers who are conservative and dont have 24 hour internet access who are like Tahrir Square in terms of numbers x 20.000,000

Its the same way here. He's talking to a group of people at PF who are hear to learn.. but who have strong opinions based on life experience, family history, personal travels. The majority of the folks that are accessing this site are probably in the West, with 1 or 2 folks in Kabul in the green zone or at Kabul U. You have a few people in KP along the border region and they already are suspicious of him for the right reasons and many of these folks are also probably well off compared to the average Pakistani (i.e. their wealth is likely quiet a bit more than that off the average villager).

So when he comes here, who is he aiming to convince? Usually people are going for the fence sitters.... those people who are independents and have not made thier mind up yet. Most of these people here are more interested in the latest gown in a fashion show than this stuff and couldnt really care less what either side thinks.

He doesnt understand that the kid in the madrassah or in the village square with the straw hat, who couldnt afford the pakol isnt on here and probably cannot read what he is writing. Basically, he is wasting tax payer money trying to convince people that dont have any say or make any decisions for governance or fighting. looool.

For him to get his propaganda message out there, it takes AM waves being beamed out of some village somewhere... which they are trying.

Basically, what I am saying is that his number needed to treat ratio is very lopsided. Thats medical jargon for the fact that his endeavor is useless... to make it fruitful he would have to:

1) Teach English and Pashto script to millions of people, many of whom still rely on oral traditions.

2) Buy all those people computers

3) Get all those people 24 hour internet access

Man oh man should the American tax payer be mad about this.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

So I mean then either the Pentagon is just really dumb and willing to invest a lot of money in something with very very very very low yield in terms of hearts and minds... or he is fishing.

What do I mean by fishing? He is here to rouse up opinions... he is here to be sort of a seive and get reactions out of people to determine who stands where.

Even that is a waste of money. All he has to do is sit here and watch and wait and someone drops a comment and a flurry of debate begins.

So he has really only two possible functions to serve..., neither of which are good.

[tor_khan]

Salaam u Alaikum Forum,

I have posted this message elsewhere and the include this here as the update:

Since Barakzai flagged up the issue, I've scrolled through a good sample of Noorzai's posts both in English and Pashto. My personal conclusion is that most amount to 'press releases'.

Pashtunforums does not act as a mouthpiece for recruiters - military, intelligence, terror group or their affiliates. That is why it has been easy to say "No" to the offers of payment from the various outfits wishing to recruit Pashto/English speakers.

The forum needs to remain an independent place open for debate and allowing people to have a strong opinion is not the same as allowing an account to operate for the opportunistic purposes of military propaganda. To that effect, it seems sensible to close the Noorzai account.

I thank the various Members for flagging this up.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Salaam u Alaikum Forum,

I have posted this message elsewhere and the include this here as the update:

Since Barakzai flagged up the issue, I've scrolled through a good sample of Noorzai's posts both in English and Pashto. My personal conclusion is that most amount to 'press releases'.

Pashtunforums does not act as a mouthpiece for recruiters - military, intelligence, terror group or their affiliates. That is why it has been easy to say "No" to the offers of payment from the various outfits wishing to recruit Pashto/English speakers.

The forum needs to remain an independent place open for debate and allowing people to have a strong opinion is not the same as allowing an account to operate for the opportunistic purposes of military propaganda. To that effect, it seems sensible to close the Noorzai account.

I thank the various Members for flagging this up.

Thanks for your considering the issue Tor Khan.

[Afghanistan2010]

Respected Barakzai Sahab,

Just to add to what tor_khan mashar said, we have been offered an excessive amount of money over and over again, and we have refused it.

who offered you money ?