Salaams, help and advice brothers and sisters

[khushal]

If you are asking about Hangu and its people, here is what I know of it/them. This is a sample size of 1 and should not be taken as gospel truth. Nonetheless, sometimes life experience provides at least a hint of guidance and Pashtun circles are small enough that improbable meetings that one would never expect do occur.

I will tell you a story of my sole interaction with Hangu and its dominant qaum/kabaeel.

Years ago, I met a young man who was looking for work in the region I was in here in the US. I was introduced to him by a common friend. I wasn't sure where he was from since he spoke with a soft Pashto dialect, though I thought him to be a Khattak.

He had his brother with him and his wife. In time he let on that he was originally engaged to another in Hangu (probably a relative) but that he would keep two wives since he preferred the company of the one he was with at the time.

Later on, I saw him again and asked about his brother. It turns out that they were from a large family with many men in it. One of the brothers decided to mediate a dispute. This was a stupid thing to do because the mediator can be held liable even if a contract is made and both sides agree to give the mediator their trust. A Jirga is far better because you would have to kill the whole village if you disagreed with the decision. So in any case, one of the parties involved in the dispute decided to claim that this man's family was being influenced and the mediator was corrupt. That led to a large scale dushmanee.

Every brother except this one was shot and killed systematically. Women folk were hit with stray bullets.

Last I heard, he himself had died from natural causes at a relatively early age. His second wife was fierce in her devotion to her family and ensured the children all married their cousins.

So in summary, this may be an unpredictable situation and my lone sample size of one offers you no real evidence basis, but in the least it gave the impression that

1) Hangu was not a settled area in the sense of being less rural/village like and more urban
2) Bad stuff happens there
3) They are rigid about marrying internally or into their own families
4) At least one of their men, and maybe your man makes it two, had no qualms about doing the idiotic practice of satisfying their family by marrying a cousin or local, but then mistreating this local or family by taking outside wives and keeping that wife as the primary wife and the back home wife as the secondary family care taker wife who gets sent maintenance funds now and then. (Though in this case he took two wives from the same village).
5) Never mediate their disputes unless you are a complete outsider and can never have violence inflicted on you.


In any case, tread carefully with this area.

Your small sample size actually pretty accurately reflects the reality of this area. I used to live in the refugee camps in Doaba. People carrying guns there is common and the ones that carry them are in a badi situation, my father would tell me not to stay to close to people with guns since you could be caught in a crossfire. Blood feuds are very common. You also have the Shia/Sunni conflicts in that area as well. The place was very dangerous. The police in the town would be scared Shytless and if they messed with the wrong people, there would be an attack on their post soon afterwards.

Hangu is mostly populated by Bangash and when you go towards Doaba and thal, you started running into Wazirs and Turis. The place is officially part of KP but the whole area is pretty lawless.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

@Barakzai
It means if earlier marriage is a venerable approach then every Muslim or Pashtun should marry at the age of about 12-15 years and then having children and thus no education and other professional pursuits? Marriage is a big responsibility and how every body will be able to manage it in this early age?

Having a boy friend and girl friend does not mean promiscuity.

But if marriage is the only option then why marriages are so difficult, expensive and complicated?

I was married pretty young - didn't stop my progress.
The CEO of Johnson&Johnson told me he was married to his high school sweetheart and had his first child in the first year of college. His parents were lower class union workers and seamstress. That did not stop his progress.

Parents have to be smart and know their children's disposition and understand their biology and natural inclinations (i.e. human beings have a natural affinity for each other under certain contexts) and control for this in a proper way that is not too rigid but also not too free. They have to give their children life meaning and experiences and make it apparent to them that their role is bigger than just a high school romance or a college fling - they have to be instilled with a great sense of destiny.

Parents also, alongside teaching their children the meaning of finances and money plus hardwork should build a big family network and resources should be put into supporting the young couple to continue their education alongside being married and enjoying their blessed union.

Parents' decisions should be guided by what their children want to a degree and also what is good for their children in a suitable partner. A strong hand should be used to keep thugs, gangster, and loafers away from one's children.

Children should analyze their options and think beyond the animalistic moment when making these decisions. Before chasing a pair of blue eyes or a white face or a temporarily dominant culture - or a namaa from back home (i.e. Khanthope) in the parents' and childrens' case - people should go for higher ideals in their partner.

So societal investment in marriage on multiple levels that encourages gradual and progressive independence for the couple will create a sustainable platform.

Often times, countries devise tax codes (one nice thing about the US) that reward married partners with some financial breaks too and have medical insurance schemes that allow partner coverage at a reasonable cost - ensuring that the married partner does not accrue an uncovered and exorbitant cost to society.

Basically, I think you and I agree that there is a middle road approach. I don't think marriage is complicated, I think WE all make marriage complicated and expensive in many ways.

For example - Muhammad (S) and his subsequent inheritors did not appear to put a dowry cap in place - but various literature attributes the rationale and approach to the true symbolic nature of the dowry. In one instance, all a man could offer beyond the basic support was what he had memorized from the Holy Book and this was deemed enough if the female accepted it symbolically. In another instance, a brass ring was accepted (i.e. simplicity was advocated but not mandated).

I have seen in recent years stupidity on both sides. I was invited to an American colleague's wedding that was estimated cost of $75,000 and I was invited to an Afghan wedding with a similar projected cost. Then on the other hand, I have seen joyous simple court wedding for Americans and I have attended $200 masjid weddings that had a lot of symbolic meaning.

--------------------

But I ardently disagree with you that parenting stops at 18. My father and I may not see eye to eye on a number of issues, but he still offers me a loving and firm opinion that I take into account in my own decision making.

And some bad decisions do deserve a strong and unyielding response that imparts to the involved party how off course they are going.

If God forbid your daughter was endangering her life and she was 19, I don't think any person, atheist, American, Muslim, Christian etc would say someone is wrong for being aggressive in protecting their child.

To give a reference from pop culture for example, when Britney Spears was careening into a drug filled downward spiral and spending the night with a series of different shady men, I remember seeing on 20/20 (American News Report Show) that her father and mother went to the court and seized control of her assets and declared her temporarily incompetent. The court permitted this to protect her and give her parents more control in the eyes of the law.

------------------------------------------------

I think its important to study our own biology so we don't make stupid decisions either. If you put a 15 year old into school with girls, its his natural design to like those girls and vice versa. Some say this is where the gender gap in education comes from and why men are now underperforming in the modern era.

So a better route is to pursue solid educational credentials at a good school that separates the sexes during the zwanaay jowsh period, and also allow for marriages to occur in the right context if the person wants to pursue this and has sound arguments and the right support and plan in place (and demonstrates academic rigor and potential that does not abate with these interests).

[Catya Sher]

Yes about Hangu [which I remember even from times of living in Peshawar
as being viewed as rather troubled, with not such good people,
now that it's brought up.
I didn't want Azi to feel bad, but it's better for her to see the whole picture
as fully as possible than to be even MORE severely disappointed, later].

Ah ! That was a good point about the posthumus revocaton of Najib's
medical credential.

It would make a great point for any government smart enough to
seize upon such a WIDELY POPULAR deed and really drive the point home
to the hilt with a public burning of a record, or something like that !

The Butcher of Kabul [wasn't that an epithet given him ?
I haven't thought of that supremely unsavory individual for some time]
WAS a TRUE psychopath.
I was not sorry when he met his fate....

Azi, I hope you are doing better. Sometimes after the first terrible shock,
the Truth DOES heal [although slowly !]
Keep posting here and let us know how you are faring, or any
new development.

[Badlun]

BARAKZAI SAIB

I am happy we are discussing real life issues .

If my daughter is 40 years old and she needs my advice , help and assistance I will be always there to help her out in any situation. I should do it with any human being. She after all is my blood, my identity, my daughter.

What I said that to train her in real life situations and decisions once she is 18 years old she will be totally free in her decisions. I will not impose my decisions or choices on her. I do not want she should be dependent on me all the times. I do not want children of daddy papi type all the time calling their parents for help. I want to see my children strong, self confident, educated ,assertive , healthy , successful and good Muslims, Pashtuns and human beings.

All this depends on my 18 years education for them. Once they will have proper education I will be more than sure that my children will never adopt a wrong path and will never make wrong decisions.

I am still not at all convinced on early marriages. One CEO or one Barakzai have successful early marriages does not mean it will always be a success. Marriage is a very big responsibility and one should take lot of care in choosing the life long partner.

Osho is totally against the institution of marriage!

[RisingSun]

Salaams,

Yes I live in London, he also lives in London at the moment and has done for over 11 years.
We both have a different education but islamic we believe the same alhumdulliah.
Yes yesterday we spoke and he said he has no option but to marry this girl and if he doesn't his life will be at danger.
I am an only child and my mum is on her own, so its is my duty to take care of her, which alhumdulliah I do. I work, i'm a senior consultant for a research firm. I have 2 degrees.
He is a builder and electrician by trade and alhumdulliah can work and earn too.

Yesterday he said i'm his first choice, he wants to marry me and doesn't want me to worry about things back home. However, my issue is eventually I will be old, he will be old and this other lady will be old. Is it fair to her or myself for him not to be there when companionship formed in the right way should be till old age. I need to stay here till my mum is alive and may Allah grant her a long life inshallah.

I would say i'm now distrustful, The point is he is saying i should marry him and accept the other wife and he will stay with me. I don't agree with this because there is a chance of inequality between me and her, thats not fair on us ladies. We are someones daughters, sisters and could be mothers one day.

I never thought I would be going through this i'm so sad right now

wait honey

as i understand you live in europe and he in an islamic country
you both got different education
and he might marry another girl
you have to take care for your mother
you are maybe a second choice?
you don't fell to be treat equal
and you are extrem insecure

[RisingSun]

Thanks for this, this was really helpful.

I appreciate your views and it confirms my thoughts.

Jazakallah

If you are asking about Hangu and its people, here is what I know of it/them. This is a sample size of 1 and should not be taken as gospel truth. Nonetheless, sometimes life experience provides at least a hint of guidance and Pashtun circles are small enough that improbable meetings that one would never expect do occur.

I will tell you a story of my sole interaction with Hangu and its dominant qaum/kabaeel.

Years ago, I met a young man who was looking for work in the region I was in here in the US. I was introduced to him by a common friend. I wasn't sure where he was from since he spoke with a soft Pashto dialect, though I thought him to be a Khattak.

He had his brother with him and his wife. In time he let on that he was originally engaged to another in Hangu (probably a relative) but that he would keep two wives since he preferred the company of the one he was with at the time.

Later on, I saw him again and asked about his brother. It turns out that they were from a large family with many men in it. One of the brothers decided to mediate a dispute. This was a stupid thing to do because the mediator can be held liable even if a contract is made and both sides agree to give the mediator their trust. A Jirga is far better because you would have to kill the whole village if you disagreed with the decision. So in any case, one of the parties involved in the dispute decided to claim that this man's family was being influenced and the mediator was corrupt. That led to a large scale dushmanee.

Every brother except this one was shot and killed systematically. Women folk were hit with stray bullets.

Last I heard, he himself had died from natural causes at a relatively early age. His second wife was fierce in her devotion to her family and ensured the children all married their cousins.

So in summary, this may be an unpredictable situation and my lone sample size of one offers you no real evidence basis, but in the least it gave the impression that

1) Hangu was not a settled area in the sense of being less rural/village like and more urban
2) Bad stuff happens there
3) They are rigid about marrying internally or into their own families
4) At least one of their men, and maybe your man makes it two, had no qualms about doing the idiotic practice of satisfying their family by marrying a cousin or local, but then mistreating this local or family by taking outside wives and keeping that wife as the primary wife and the back home wife as the secondary family care taker wife who gets sent maintenance funds now and then. (Though in this case he took two wives from the same village).
5) Never mediate their disputes unless you are a complete outsider and can never have violence inflicted on you.


In any case, tread carefully with this area.

[RisingSun]

Thanks for your heartfelt message
Much appreciated
Thank you

Yes about Hangu [which I remember even from times of living in Peshawar
as being viewed as rather troubled, with not such good people,
now that it's brought up.
I didn't want Azi to feel bad, but it's better for her to see the whole picture
as fully as possible than to be even MORE severely disappointed, later].

Ah ! That was a good point about the posthumus revocaton of Najib's
medical credential.

It would make a great point for any government smart enough to
seize upon such a WIDELY POPULAR deed and really drive the point home
to the hilt with a public burning of a record, or something like that !

The Butcher of Kabul [wasn't that an epithet given him ?
I haven't thought of that supremely unsavory individual for some time]
WAS a TRUE psychopath.
I was not sorry when he met his fate....

Azi, I hope you are doing better. Sometimes after the first terrible shock,
the Truth DOES heal [although slowly !]
Keep posting here and let us know how you are faring, or any
new development.

[RisingSun]

Great insightful advice thank you
Appreciated.
I agree with you about emotional manipulation, i've said the same.

he is not a good man. let me tell you why. you know the part where he tells you that none of it is your fault?? that is called emotional manipulation. by admitting that, he is buying your sympathy and that does not take away from the fact that he lied to you. if a pashtun man comes from a family where he is expected to marry someone chosen for them, they always know. he chose to ignore that fact at your expense and it never occurred to him to come clean in the course of 4 years.
when you care for someone, you will take whatever bits and parts of their life that you can get your hands on. the idea of being in his life as a second wife may seem very much appealing in comparison to not being in his life at all. however, the truth is that a person can be amused, fascinated and infatuated by two people at the but never in love with two people at the same time. the distinction between that one individual and the rest of the world's population is very clear and obvious. if he loves you, he is cutting his other wife short of her rights and if he loves her, you will be just a mistake. that woman does not have the option that you do. you will be at fault with him on it just as much as he is. don't settle for being an option in anyone's life. and don't meet people with the intention of getting married with them if it has not been discussed or finalized. you invest in to a relationship emotionally and then it does not work out after all. you end up in an emotional mess.
and the part where you need to take care of your mother and what not..that is none of anyone's business. not even his if it had been decided for the two of you to get married to each other. she is your mother, not a burden that your care for her should be some sort of "sacrifice" on the part of either one of you.
you made a mistake. move on and away from it.

[HalloIsBack]

Salaams,

Yes I live in London, he also lives in London at the moment and has done for over 11 years.
We both have a different education but islamic we believe the same alhumdulliah.
Yes yesterday we spoke and he said he has no option but to marry this girl and if he doesn't his life will be at danger.
I am an only child and my mum is on her own, so its is my duty to take care of her, which alhumdulliah I do. I work, i'm a senior consultant for a research firm. I have 2 degrees.
He is a builder and electrician by trade and alhumdulliah can work and earn too.

Yesterday he said i'm his first choice, he wants to marry me and doesn't want me to worry about things back home. However, my issue is eventually I will be old, he will be old and this other lady will be old. Is it fair to her or myself for him not to be there when companionship formed in the right way should be till old age. I need to stay here till my mum is alive and may Allah grant her a long life inshallah.

I would say i'm now distrustful, The point is he is saying i should marry him and accept the other wife and he will stay with me. I don't agree with this because there is a chance of inequality between me and her, thats not fair on us ladies. We are someones daughters, sisters and could be mothers one day.

I never thought I would be going through this i'm so sad right now

you have got 2 degrees and he is builder and electrician by trade. this doesn't work!

if he want to marry you and not her. why he didn't do it in the last 3-4 years?

so he is travelling since 11 years between london and pakistan(?). and he didn't tell you anything till now although he know it longer? he could lie to you in future too.

he will maybe bring his first wife to london and you will be just a second wife in europe you don't have any rights as a wife

just think about you in your community how will people treat you

leave him! if he wanted to marry you he would do it a long time ago
for me it seems like he knew about his marriage in pakistan (?) but lied to you

as i said it will hurt in the first time but later you will recognise it was a right decision

[Manzareh]

[MENTION=1753]Manzareh[/MENTION]
Have I ever called you names in spite of our ideological differences. I have always tried to talk in an impersonal way to share and learn not abusing and touching personal lives of people. This is the sign of a worst dawoos that instead of battle of ideas and arguments attack on personal grounds and evoke emotional, religious, sentimental aspects and issue decrees and fatwas.

For my daughter I will have the best ever possible modern education at school and best ethical and religious education at home. Once she will be adult of 18 years will have complete freedom to decide whatever direction she will like to have of her professional and personal life.

My priority will be always that she is a responsible citizen and a conscious human being. She should be a perfect Muslim religiously, a complete Pashtun socially and culturally, democratic minded politically and social capitalist economically. She should have good taste for fine arts and good understanding of social and natural sciences .

This is what I will try to educate her, rest will be her to live the way she wish. If she want to get married after her completion of education will be her decision if not will be again hers. I will never intervene in her personal life once she is 18 years old.

I don't call you these names out of spitefulness I call you these names because they describe your personality as a person, when iv called you names iv given you justification for it.

One hand you wish your daughter to be a 'perfect Muslim' on the other hand you teach her that sex before marriage is ok aslong as safe sex methods are used, you advocate boyfriend/girlfriends, I'm sorry to say this but from your teachings of a father your daughter is going to have sexed around the whole university campus, I guarantee all your children's best friends will be kuffar since there father is more or less one and raised them in such a non-islamic manner. You might be a nice guy but its true that amongst Pashtuns you are the definition of a begherat and dawoos and I can almost guarantee you that most Pashtuns will agree. You have no honour or Pashtun values what so ever, maybe you are just posing as a Pashtun online.

[khushal]

Salaams,

Yes I live in London, he also lives in London at the moment and has done for over 11 years.
We both have a different education but islamic we believe the same alhumdulliah.
Yes yesterday we spoke and he said he has no option but to marry this girl and if he doesn't his life will be at danger.
I am an only child and my mum is on her own, so its is my duty to take care of her, which alhumdulliah I do. I work, i'm a senior consultant for a research firm. I have 2 degrees.
He is a builder and electrician by trade and alhumdulliah can work and earn too.

Yesterday he said i'm his first choice, he wants to marry me and doesn't want me to worry about things back home. However, my issue is eventually I will be old, he will be old and this other lady will be old. Is it fair to her or myself for him not to be there when companionship formed in the right way should be till old age. I need to stay here till my mum is alive and may Allah grant her a long life inshallah.

I would say i'm now distrustful, The point is he is saying i should marry him and accept the other wife and he will stay with me. I don't agree with this because there is a chance of inequality between me and her, thats not fair on us ladies. We are someones daughters, sisters and could be mothers one day.

I never thought I would be going through this i'm so sad right now

Rising Sun,
I don't know where you grew up but life is very hard in the Hungu/Doaba area for males and it is extremely hard for females. The area is very under developed. If your used to Life in London, I would say it would be very hard for you to adapt to life in that area.
About him saying his life would be at danger is probably a lie but if he does not marry that girl, He would bring peghor on himself and his family. His family might give him a little beating but that's about it but that girl's life is ruined. For you to convince him not to marry that girl and marry you instead, you would be ruining her life. Her option would be to be unmarried for the rest of her life or marry one of his brothers.
Ive seen many cases where the man and the girl have feeling for each other and their parents marry them to someone not of their choosing.

[RisingSun]

Thanks for the insight
Yes I grew up in the UK

I take your points however it is interesting you lean towards being concerned that one girls life will be ruined, rather than considering mine too.
We are both women, we are both someone's daughter, someones sister and could be someones mother.

It is okay for my life to be ruined?

Rising Sun,
I don't know where you grew up but life is very hard in the Hungu/Doaba area for males and it is extremely hard for females. The area is very under developed. If your used to Life in London, I would say it would be very hard for you to adapt to life in that area.
About him saying his life would be at danger is probably a lie but if he does not marry that girl, He would bring peghor on himself and his family. His family might give him a little beating but that's about it but that girl's life is ruined. For you to convince him not to marry that girl and marry you instead, you would be ruining her life. Her option would be to be unmarried for the rest of her life or marry one of his brothers.
Ive seen many cases where the man and the girl have feeling for each other and their parents marry them to someone not of their choosing.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

It is okay for my life to be ruined?

Technically, your "life" has not started yet.

[RisingSun]

Neither has the other girls?

I'm sorry I don't understand could you elaborate please?

Technically, your "life" has not started yet.

[DaZahroJaam.]

your life doesn't begin until you start belonging to and serving a man.