Just starting

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali,

I asked and I received. Your military analysis is spot on. No doubt a "no holds barred" campaign would do the trick...militarily. This smaller world of ours will not allow such tactics anymore; our allies would scatter like the wind. So, I understand the current strategy, as distasteful and inefficient as it is. There are no real answers unfortunately that all can agree on...the messiness of democracy I suppose.

I do hope President Obama has someone on his staff with your insightfulness though; a voice of reason mayhaps:=)

David, also be suspicious of the equivalent Afghan oligarchy and elites when you visit. I'll explain. So your honorable ancestors, Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, and Henry were given an offer by France to be refugees should the war for independence go badly. They refused and directed their war from their own soil and only went abroad to gather resources. They were men of steel who thought that loss of the war was upon them in many battles lost to the British; but they would not flee and would not surrender. In essence, they led a combination of a well orchestrated gorilla campaign coupled to regular military conflict.

Our elites though, were men that abandoned their people in their hour of need. When the Russians were killing us in the masses, the men who should have been our Washingtons and Franklins (Karzai is in this group) left the country and ran to comfortable quarters in France, Italy, America, etc. They left the poor of their country to fight for independence and to bleed on the soil. Then, when these folks won the war against the Russians, those same oligarchs pounded their chests and claimed to be brave warrior Afghans.

In summary David, the reason Afghanistan and Iraq cannot succeed is that we have no Washington. We have hooligans that are using innocents like you to capture power and to sustain it.

When you are there, meet the poor. Meet them when you are not in the presence of governors and dignitaries who have lavish homes in Dubai or second homes in the US. Befriend them and get them to know that they can be honest with you. Find the ones that support the insurgency in their hearts and ask them their opinions in a peaceful way. They will tell you the same.

Now, unfortunately, the President and his folks are surrounded by these Afghan oligarchs who tell them everything is peachy keen... when it is obviously not. They are "Yes-men." Find the "no-men" and talk to them to hone your strategy and allow it to adjust to the ground level realities.

Matthew Hoh confirmed this in the article. He is your brother in arms and a marine. Tell me your thoughts on the article when you can.

[graveyardofempires]

Unknown Prince - Not sure who you are or where you come from, but you are totally way off base. I'll just leave it at that. We Americans are proud warriors as well, certainly not with the same petigree or history of your Pashtun brothers, but make no mistake about who we are. I am not here to brag about us, I am here to learn about you. But I can't just let flippant insults slide. Maybe you view me (us) an an enemy...I can understand that, but to put down our sense of country and patriotism is a joke. All you need to know about us happened after 9/11. And I don't mean militarily, I mean back here on the streets of America. There were flags draped, songs written and a genuine unifying spirit. There is just no denying that.

Why can't I (we) respect the greatness of your culture and you respect mine? Can't we both be decent groups of people? Who says one has to be better than the other. Be proud of your heritage, I am of mine.

how about 9/11?
and i agree with your last couple of sentences.

and in your next comment you said that you want to know pashto and talk to people in afghanistan to know better about them.what makes you think they will talk openly to you.Afghans especially pashtuns terrorised to the point that they will be afraid to talk to you about their own opinion cuz than they will think their house will be raided at night and they shot dead or taken away.these things happen all the time.Afghans will say what you would like to hear.

[davidkross]

GOE - No idea. But why not try?

[graveyardofempires]

GOE - No idea. But why not try?

its good to try,but there is a huge lack of media.

[khushal]

David,


David, I refer you to a historical figure named Lord Roberts of Kandahar (or Candahar as the British spelled it). He was a genius in understanding what Alexander and others failed to understand. He was the only successfull general to fight on Afghan soil and achieved all his objectives. He harnassed and mastered the art of punitive warfare that resulted in an Afghanistan that was hesitant to make incursions into British India. He understood that occupying Afghanistan and attempting to alter its national image is like chasing mirages in a desert. It usually resulted in a long and exhaustive campaign in which an occupier spends inordinate resources to create an unsustainable government. Instead, Lord Roberts marched in a number of days between Kandahar and Kabul and burned and destroyed everything in his path (sort of like Sherman's march to the sea here in the US). Then, he did something amazing... he rapidly withdrew with a warning to future Afghan generals that any incursions into British India would be met by similar inexpensive, brutal, and punitive expeditions.

I am not as articulate as Mr Barachzia here but I have to disagree with the above statement. Roberts of Kandahar was not unique to burning down towns and villages in his path to punish rebellions, the british employed this tactic everwhere in the indian subcontinent and africa. Even before Roberts, during the first anglo afghan war when the british army in kabul was completely destroyed, The british army did send in reinforcements from india to take back Kabul and they burned the city to the ground and withdrew because it was too costly to keep it occupied. There is even speculation that the Afghan leader Akbar Khan did not intend to completely destroy the british army in Kabul out of fear of how the british would respond, but it got out of hand and beyond his control.

And the Afghan incursion never stopped harrassing british convoys and towns under british control. The afghan raids continued throughout the british occupation of India. The reason for the raids was because of poverty in afghanistan. People that live on land with no or very little resouces will have no choice but to invade or raid the closest place with resources, This is not unique to afghanistan.

The Mongols (living on land with very little resources) always invaded China( land with abundant amount of resources) causing china to built the world famous Great Wall of China to have defenses against the mongols. Japan invading china and other places in south east asia is an example.

The recent conflict in Darfur has to do with the arab tribes living in the northern land turning into baren desert because of climate change, they had no choice but to move south into land that the Darfurians lived in causing volient conflict and ethnic tensions.

The only solution to the afghan problem is to make Afghanistan an economic viable nation Just like they did with Germany and Japan. It should have access to the indian ocean and should not have to depend on regional powers otherwise the afghans will always do what is natural human behavior to survive like they have been doing for thousands of years.

[akbarkhan]

Pashtuns want America out.
Pashtuns have no idea why Americans are there in the first place.
Afghanistan's government, supported by the US, is corrupt and not even recognized by the Pashtuns.
The more troops we send, the more the Taliban and the Pashtuns will fight.

So...from all that, it seems a no brainer that America needs to find a diplomatic solution and get out.

Salam alaikom wa rahmatuallah David,

All the points you have raised above are correct apart from the second one. I will come back to that point later inshallah.

First, I have a question.

Is imposing democracy through coercion & violence a democractic act in itself?

[darwezkhail]

Don't talk to akbar khan anyone .. he made me cry :'(

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali,

I did read the article. But, as I am sure you do, I always check the source. Here's what I found out about The Nation magazine:

The Nation magazine, America’s self-described “flagship of the left,”

Now I do have a counter-argument for you:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...031103394.html


I am not big on conspiracy theories and the belief that large corporations rule the world. I know these are very academic paradigms and the arguments have merit, but just like Mr. Hoh's opinion, there is someone else who has another. For me, or the average joe, it's very hard to get to the bottom of complex issues when both sides have convincing arguments. Just as yours are very convincing and well studied.

Here are some definate themes I have heard from this message board and in the article:

Pashtuns want America out.
Pashtuns have no idea why Americans are there in the first place.
America sided with the enemies, or at least, the more despised faction within Afghanistan.
Afghanistan's government, supported by the US, is corrupt and not even recognized by the Pashtuns.
The more troops we send, the more the Taliban and the Pashtuns will fight.

So...from all that, it seems a no brainer that America needs to find a diplomatic solution and get out.

But...with everything, if this is so clear and obvious, than why does it not happen? I know, I know, it's the ruling elite, the large corporations getting rich off of everone's misery, etc. etc.

Nothing is as simple as it may seem. Too bad. However...if us average joes can sit and at least talk about things, and commanders like Hoh can go out an actually talk to people in Afghanistan, then maybe something can come of it. I really want to be able to do just that...Come hell or high water, I plan on learning enough Pashto so I can have these conversations...cause I really want to know the truth myself. Plus I love meeting people who are different than me:=)

Being a Social Studies/history teacher I appreciate your commentary on our forefathers. You just don't hear how great they really were anymore.

Respectfully!

David

I appreciate the article.

I think that the difference is the primary source. As a social study teacher and a conveyer of history you obviously know that primary information matters. In the article I sent you, those are Hoh's own words. Regardless of whether the Nation leans right or left or front or center, the primary information I extract is from Hoh's verbatim words.

O Hanlon on the other hand is a secondary source and one with an avowed agenda. He accompanied Bill Kristol and a host of other Neocons who are ardent fifth column American citizens in clammoring for a war in Iraq that only made America less safe by opening up the Levant conveyer belt running from south and central asia and Lebanon, Yemen, etc to fighters that are becoming poised to hit American interests in those regions at whim. Here is an example of some of there handiwork and mischief mongering:

http://baltimorechronicle.com/2007/073007Parry.shtml

The question you would have to answer is what is Hoh's agenda? He effectively killed members of America's adversaries and appeared to want to do it even more effectively. O Hanlon on the other hand has thus far proved himself as entrenched in the neoconsevative thought processes and cheer led us into that great disastor called Baghdad. Mrs. Sherjan, while a respectable business woman, is also from Kabul proper and does not accurately reflect the will of the people found in the equivalent of Afghanistan's southern version of America's southern "Bible-belt."

[khushal]

BarakzaiAbdali,

I am not big on conspiracy theories and the belief that large corporations rule the world. I know these are very academic paradigms and the arguments have merit, but just like Mr. Hoh's opinion, there is someone else who has another. For me, or the average joe, it's very hard to get to the bottom of complex issues when both sides have convincing arguments. Just as yours are very convincing and well studied.

Here are some definate themes I have heard from this message board and in the article:

Pashtuns want America out.
Pashtuns have no idea why Americans are there in the first place.
America sided with the enemies, or at least, the more despised faction within Afghanistan.
Afghanistan's government, supported by the US, is corrupt and not even recognized by the Pashtuns.
The more troops we send, the more the Taliban and the Pashtuns will fight.

So...from all that, it seems a no brainer that America needs to find a diplomatic solution and get out.

But...with everything, if this is so clear and obvious, than why does it not happen? I know, I know, it's the ruling elite, the large corporations getting rich off of everone's misery, etc. etc.

Nothing is as simple as it may seem. Too bad. However...if us average joes can sit and at least talk about things, and commanders like Hoh can go out an actually talk to people in Afghanistan, then maybe something can come of it. I really want to be able to do just that...Come hell or high water, I plan on learning enough Pashto so I can have these conversations...cause I really want to know the truth myself. Plus I love meeting people who are different than me:=)

Being a Social Studies/history teacher I appreciate your commentary on our forefathers. You just don't hear how great they really were anymore.

Respectfully!

The founding fathers of America werent as great as you make them out to be. The Main reason America is where it is today is because of its rich resources, it has been isolated from threats by being far away from the old world. The indeginious population was completely eminated for white settlers so they cant make land claims in the future and the africans and chinese were used to build the land. The only thing you can thank the founding fathers for is not having a conscience to commit these atrocities.

If you look at how Spain colonized Latin and south america, You can clearly see that the indeginious people were not wiped out and the vast majority of the population are actually the indeginous people unlike in The US and Canada whom the British colonized for their own people.

@David, The afghan government in Kabul today is more loyal to Iran and Russia than they are to America. The reason for this is because they can not and will not trust America. It was america's Kissenger who came up with a plan to deceive the Russians into invading afghanistan so they can be trapped in a quagmire to avenge Vietnam resulting in the deaths of 2 million afghans and the complete destruction of the country when they were left behind to the mercy of the rebels who were created by the Americans. Trust is a very valuable thing and once it is lost, it is lost forever. Anybody with a capitalistic mentality can not be trusted because with that mentality they only think about asset and liability, and the value of compassion is secondary.

This is one of the best Twighlight zone episodes (To serve man) ever made, it relates to many scenerios about how man manpulates with one message and in reality the intent is the complete opposite. Watch all parts and see if you can get the relationship between this and whats going on in afghanistan or Iraq.
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 1
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 2
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 3

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The founding fathers of America werent as great as you make them out to be. The Main reason America is where it is today is because of its rich resources, it has been isolated from threats by being far away from the old world. The indeginious population was completely eminated for white settlers so they cant make land claims in the future and the africans and chinese were used to build the land. The only thing you can thank the founding fathers for is not having a conscience to commit these atrocities.

If you look at how Spain colonized Latin and south america, You can clearly see that the indeginious people were not wiped out and the vast majority of the population are actually the indeginous people unlike in The US and Canada whom the British colonized for their own people.

@David, The afghan government in Kabul today is more loyal to Iran and Russia than they are to America. The reason for this is because they can not and will not trust America. It was america's Kissenger who came up with a plan to deceive the Russians into invading afghanistan so they can be trapped in a quagmire to avenge Vietnam resulting in the deaths of 2 million afghans and the complete destruction of the country when they were left behind to the mercy of the rebels who were created by the Americans. Trust is a very valuable thing and once it is lost, it is lost forever. Anybody with a capitalistic mentality can not be trusted because with that mentality they only think about asset and liability, and the value of compassion is secondary.

This is one of the best Twighlight zone episodes (To serve man) ever made, it relates to many scenerios about how man manpulates with one message and in reality the intent is the complete opposite. Watch all parts and see if you can get the relationship between this and whats going on in afghanistan or Iraq.
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 1
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 2
YouTube - The Twilight Zone S03E24 To Serve Man Part 3

Certainly, just as Christians, Muslims, and Jews look to a higher source for their guidance and place that source above the word of man, I too agree that the founding fathers were just men and that they were fallible. However, I meant that this combination of luck (rich resources, wide continental country, two surrounding oceans, etc) and their guidance on how to govern the US to international affairs is far better for its survival than what the current ruling elites want to implement which gaurantees an empire doomed to fall instead of a republic.

[khushal]

Certainly, just as Christians, Muslims, and Jews look to a higher source for their guidance and place that source above the word of man, I too agree that the founding fathers were just men and that they were fallible. However, I meant that this combination of luck (rich resources, wide continental country, two surrounding oceans, etc) and their guidance on how to govern the US to international affairs is far better for its survival than what the current ruling elites want to implement which gaurantees an empire doomed to fall instead of a republic.

I doubt America is in any danger of falling. The american political system assures the prevention from one man or even a group of men from guiding policy to ensure doom. There are too many intelectuals and too many safety nets in place to keep america strong and ahead of the game. American policy is in place today wheather Republican or Democratic (which in reality always has the same foreign policy) to counter the growing Chinese influence over the planet. It will be very difficult to counter a growing power over three times the size of the United States Unless steps are taken now to control the resources. The so called Al Quada threat is just a halogram created by the government to influence public opinion which is instrumental in guiding policy.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

[QUOTE=davidkross;294367]

If you look at how Spain colonized Latin and south america, You can clearly see that the indeginious people were not wiped out and the vast majority of the population are actually the indeginous people unlike in The US and Canada whom the British colonized for their own people.

Khushal - yea...just ask the Mayans and Aztecs about Cortes, they may disagree with you. History is chock full of atrocities, every great society has had them, heck, every society has them in their histories, if they didn't, they wouldn't be around. The world was different a thousand years ago, 500 years ago, 200 years ago, 3 decades ago. Hopefully we inhabitants of the world have evolved somewhat. Thie things the British, French, and Spanish empires did back then was considered fine by European standards...would it be so now? I hardly think so.

So...does the history of the US offer our enemies ammunition to prove what an imperialistic and cruel country we are? Sure, heck we slaughtered Indians, enslaved Africans, massacred a Vietnamese village etc. etc.

Go back to the history of any region and research their indiscretions. Ever heard of Ghengis Khan, Pol Pot, Stalin, Vlad the Impaler, Mohamed Farrah Aidid, Mahmud Ghaznavi, etc.

My point is it happened. It happened here (in US), there (in Afghanistan), in Russia, in Europe, in Africa. We (all of the cultures of the world) are guilty of it.

I would like to think we are all more evolved them that. And I know full well, internationally, the US is looked on as some bully with imperialistic intentions. ANd, I know there is some truth to that, but please...all of these corporate entities ruling the world, super secret organizations like the free masons actually making policy, and evil Americans taking over the world...please!

It sounds like a lot of the people on this message board are in the US any way. How can people reaping the benefits of the US society, be dogging it out so much? It reminds me of my time back in college...all these liberal weenies whining about the greed and corruption of America, yet getting their college paid for free, driving cars, being able to use the internet, saying something in public with out the fear of ending in a prison or dead some where.

So....please, get off your high horses, especially you Americans. We ain't perfect, but we ain't a bunch of blood thirsty criminals that some on this board paint us out to be either.

Sure we send our troops abroad, spend our money to influence things, etc. But check out the aid we provide, when there is a tsunami in Islamic Indonesia, who is there to help? When Haiti gets nailed by an earthquake, who goes to lend a hand? Who is in Africa curbing the scourge of Aids? Who feeds the people of North Korea, Somalia, Sudan etc.? Who saved the worlds ass from the likes of Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein etc.?

You know I could go on and on. And I know, Scimitar (who lives in the US) and his cronies will tell you it's all part of some imperialistic plot yadda yadda.

You know what? Go on with your debates, accusations, and stereotyping. I am just trying to get a sense of the Pashtu culture and all I am getting is US bashing, Paki bashing, Hindu bashing, European imperialism bashing.

Is their anything else you Pashtoons do for fun?

Hi Dau-ood Khan (Chief David is what that translates to),

I am sorry you feel that way. I generally do not feel as if I fall into a liberal camp. I actually voted for Dr. Paul in the republican primaries and am generally a social conservative. I think we are in agreement that America is not unique in conquest or any of the other issues you raised. Every group of people have done this. However, my argument has simply been that the mode that is currently being employed to accomplish this is counterproductive to maintaining America's best interests.

Moreover, I am simply trying to discuss and counter discuss with you where we appear to have strayed from our original charters.

Regarding our continental atrocities, I think that they are important not in how they reflect on you or your ancestors, but rather how people will respond to your overtures. If a Pashtun there feels that he will be taken out the way that the Shawnees or the Wompanogs were, he may tell you that you are perfectly correct in your commentary on the nature of man, but that he will fight you to the end in the same way that other men (William Wallace, Robert De Bruce, etc) have sought to overthrow folks entering their land. This is a basic human response that you have to recognize.

The bottom line that you are presenting is that: We are there... so live with it. The bottom line they are responding with is: You are here... leave and come back as a civilian or we will fight you.

Moreover, it is unfair of you to link criticism of American policies to criticism of the American people or the American ideals. I would think that you agree that Nancy Pelosi, Jon Boehner, Obama, and Lindsey Grant are American politicians and a part of the ruling elite and probably do not accurately reflect the full human being that is David Kross.

My argument is simply that we have information access at our fingertips. We have experts like Hoh and Scheuer and other bright men that are involved in this and we ought to take their opinions into account. We are America and we can do far better than prior nations in trying to avoid the empire trajectory.

David, quiet simply, I prefer the Republic to the Empire.

Finally, you actually are witnessing an important trait of the Pashtun culture here ... we are very very xenophobic!

[BarakzaiAbdali]

BarakzaiAbdali,

Touche! Yeah, my rant wasn't really aimed at your posts, heck I've learned a lot just reading them and the articles you presented. And, I really have no problem with a Pashtoon trashing me or us for being over there. I understand where they are coming from..they have every right to speak out and war against it. Not saying I agree with them.

But...I do have problems when people out and out bash the US, especially if they live here. And, I don't mean debating policies, or wars, or strategies, or politicians...heck, thats what democracy is. I mean the ones who live here and just slam our institutions, culture and beliefs. I disagree with a lot that goes on, but when backed into a corner, I am an American and proud of it.

I've been around the world, in several cultures and countries, I've seen people that love the US, I've seen people that hate us. I undestand the hate. I tell my students my "Yankee Theory."

You see, I hate the NY Yankees. They are everywhere, they have the most money, the best players, they always seem to win. You turn on a Sports station, who's playing? The friggin Yankees. So...I hate em. The US is despised, for much the same reason. And I understand that. But I also understand why I hate them. I understand it's pure emotion. When I take a step back and really analyze it, I don't really hate them, I actually rspect them for being so dang omnipresent and good. But then I go back to hating them because I'm a huge sports fan:=) I also understand the point you make about disliking the US, but that doesn't necessarily mean her citizens.

Oh...back to the Yanks...they always beat my Twins in the play-offs too. Dang Yankees!

David I agree that most of the Muslim world actually admires the "Yankees". In fact the university of Maryland massive sample size surveys show that muslims universally admire American accomplishments. However, the survey also shows that it is our actions abroad in their homes that they despise. They do not appear to hate us because we have the amazing Mayo Clinic here or because Britney Spears can dance on tables without consequence or because Harvard is here and not in Dubai. I will provide you an excellent primary information source from the polling done by the University of Maryland:

http://www.start.umd.edu/start/resea...oject.asp?id=7

This is probably one of the studies with the largest sample size and it confirms what I note above. You do not have to read the whole thing, but you can read the abstract I produce from it below:

Findings from these surveys include:

• Large majorities of the public in Islamic countries surveyed denounce attacks on American citizens, whether in the US or in a Muslim country. As a general principle, large majorities also reject the use of violent methods such as bombings and assassinations to achieve political goals.
• Majorities endorse the al Qaeda goal of pushing the US to remove all of its military forces from Muslim countries and also oppose the presence of US naval forces in the Persian Gulf. Even if the governments of majority Muslim states request US troops, most of the public oppose their presence.
• Significant numbers of those polled – majorities in some nations – approve of attacks on US troops based in Muslim countries.
• Publics in the Islamic world perceive the US as seeking to weaken and divide Islam and to maintain control over Middle East oil. Less than half perceive the US as seeking to protect them from extremists or as genuinely trying to promote democracy. Most believe that the US is seeking to further the expansion of Israel, while views are mixed on whether the US is seeking to bring about a Palestinian state.
• Views of the US government are quite negative. The US is seen as failing to abide by international law, being disrespectful of the Muslim people, and using its power in a coercive fashion. Views of the American people and public are not as negative as for the American government, but are still largely negative.
• Views of al Qaeda are complex. Majorities agree with al Qaeda’s goals to change US behavior in the in the Muslim world, to promote Islamist governance, and to preserve and affirm Islamic identity. However, only minorities say that they approve of al Qaeda’s attacks on Americans, as well as al Qaeda’s goals, suggesting that many feel ambivalence toward this organization.

Remember David, be careful because besides the Yankees and the Twins... there are also the Red Sox and they may actually win a game here or there....

[BarakzaiAbdali]

By the way, if you are going to go to Bagram, give me a heads up. One of my former roommates and best friends is a Marine from Alabama who is a physician. He graduated from the Uniformed Services Academy's medical school doing his year tour and is serving in Bagram during a year long tour of duty. You remind me a lot of him. He is a Birmingham boy and his family has a long military history to it. I still call his parents to this day because they treated me so well when I lived with him. I still remember his minister called me up one day to ask how a devout Muslim and a devout Christian can live in peace in one apartment but cannot do so in the rest of the world.

Also, if you make a trip to Kandahar, my dad's village is between Manday Sar and Sanjaray. There is a shrine in the village where our first King Ahmad Shah was crowned. Maybe we can set something up and my family there can show you around the Barakzai lands/historical sites. Our ancestors Payenda Khan Baba and others are buried there.

[awreedunkey]

Pearl of Pearls! Is the village near Karz? Is that close to wear Karzai was born? What is in the water there? You have the inaugural Shah of Afghanistan, Karzai and I am sure several more rulers in between. That would be quite an honor for an American to get a tour with an historical family such as the Barakzai.