wardak leaders ;)

[Toramana]

Because many of them are not originally Pashtuns. They were just adoptet through victory and living with them for many centuries. The Barakzai tribe f.ex are also not real Pashtuns. Just became Pashtunized through intermarriages with them. Originally, they are descandants of a certain group called after their chied Barcca who was an Uzbek. Many Pashtuns on the otherside of Afghanistan have either originally a dardic or Indian origine. All of them became Pashtunized the last 500 years due the political changes and ethnical movings. Wardaks are mixed of Tajiks, Pashtuns, Hazaras and Nuristanis. That´s their original background. Wardak was not always known as Wardak. The original name of the region is ''Maidan'' or ''Kalan-Maidan''. Hazaras and other non-Pashtuns still use that word for the region. The term ''Wardaki'' was not an ethnical or tribal identification (it became one in the past 150 years) but a regional identity. The term is taken from Dari ''Paradagh-a'', the name of an ancient tomb that was once there. Today noone know where it´s situated. This was the beginning and the corruption of the term Paradagh-a to Wardak. The ''Wardak'' became the last 200 years slowly Pashtu-speakers. That is possibly the reason why the brother on the top said that they look like non-Pashtun Tajiks. Btw, my cousin had married a woman from Wardak.

Hi Kabulzada, so you claim before 18th Century, Wardaks were not Pashto speakers and that they adopted Pashto langauge since the beginning of 18th Century. Can you back this with evidence? Far more absurd is the claim that Wardaks are the amalgamation of Tajaks, Pashtuns, Hazaras, and Nooristanis and that Barakzais are not originally Pashtuns but were assimilated through conquest and adoptation. One cannot simply understand this Nooristan tangle being geographically remote from Wardaks.

Could you tell us which tribes are the original Pashtuns and which have been adopted...and that, on what grounds do you make that claim? Furthermore, which of the Pukhtunkhwa Pashtun tribes are original Pashtuns and which are Dardic or Indians but Pashtunized? On what ground, do you make this claim?

I have Wardak relatives in Khyber Pukhtunkhwa province who are living side by side Yousafzais since at least 17th Century and are Pashto speakers since their first generation that arrived in KPK.

One should not make a claim one doesn't have facts to back.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Salam dear Toramana,

these are not my words but those of Morgenstierne and some other writers and scholars such as Friedrich Schimmel. I am very interested on my Pashtun history. From where my maternal ancestors came from and how they came to where and when and thus I came many times in contacts with many sources. You can not find any source that can reference you the name Wardak before the 18th century. When the British came to Afghanistan and brought their own kings for installing them in the region the first ministres (some 40) were by no chance native Persian-speaking ''Afghans'' who were called as ''Wardaks''. The Pashtun kings already had established their kingdom on the different tribes and nations of the regions. The name Wardak was never in use in any work or book that was ever written in the Pashtu language while nearly all other tribes are well mentioned, such as Khattak. The Safi tribe are also not of Pashtun origine. They are Pashtunized Nuristanis, Pashais and possibly Tajiks of Laghman, such as Khowstwals. At least their original essence is a non-Pashtun origine. That´s why they do not have any categorization. They became through the Ghalzai Pashtuns Pashtu-speakers. Till the 17th century, only the Abdali confederation was called as Afghans and theyself saw themself as the only and real Afghans. The Ghalzai Pashtuns were known as Khalaj. According to some works, also that of Morgenstierne and Friedrich Schimmel, the process of Pashtunization of the Ghalzais ended at the end of the 16th century. By becaming Pashtuns they influenced greatly the entire tribal existence of the Pashtuns and many customs were adoptet from them that are today known as savage... such as Talibanism (no insult). The proof f.ex. for that claim is that old chronists from Afghanistan wrote many times about them and their war-like nature. When caravans role through their plaines and valley and did not payed tributes (which were mostly very high and not payable) the entire caravanmen became beheaded. Also ask yourself where all those different people from southern Afghanistan went or happend with them who lived there for centuries. The Turks, the pocket of Uzbeks, Arabs, Tajik Ismaelis, Shias, Kurds, Indians, Arghun Mongols, Jats .... etc. All of them did not just disappear from the face of this world. They were adoptet and many of them had their own districts and provinces. Where are the Arabs of Zabul today? They all became Pashtuns by adoption and Pashtunization. That happens everywhere, not only in Pakistan, India or Afghanistan. More than one mio. Central Asian soldiers entered India during Babur and what happened to them? They settled there and formed new castes, new houses, clans, tribes etc. such as Qazalbashs in Afghanistan. The same goes for Tajiks. Today, the Pashais identify themself with Tajiks. They want to be count as Tajiks. Why? Because of the assimilation and adoption. Mohaqeq f.ex. is not a Hazara but an Ismaeli Tajik from Bamian but he is counted as Hazara because they Ismaelis are accepted by the Hazaras as theirs. Specially, when they live in Bamian, Hazarajat. Good point you bring on Yusufzai in Swat valley. You see. Swat was once the home of many non-Pashtuns who were by numbers much dominant than the Yusufzai´s and their already pashtunized allies like the Dizalak people. But with the time they pashtunized as a minority a large part of the non-Pashtun population of the region that today call themself Pashtun. Many Hazara tribes became Pashtunized such as Tarkankhels. The Barakzai´s once inhabitet the region between Gardez, Jalalabad and Kabul and were non-Pashtuns. That changed with the increasingly influence of the Ghalzai people in eastern and southern Afghanistan. Neverlessness, beeing of different origines caused, and their differences are possibly the main reason, a tribal war among the Pashtuns. Every tribe battle the another tribe. A tradition that goes at least 500 years back.

[Toramana]

"
The Wardaks are Karlani Pashtoons by origin. This tribe came into being in the region of Barmal Ghar of the Sulaiman range of mountains and from there the whole group of the Karlanis spread into the regions they inhabit today.
To their west lie the mountains of Hazarajat and to the other direction the Ghilzai tribes. Their area from north to south is like an oasis, surrounded by mountains to east and west. Their dwelling places lies in the Parapamisos mountains that divide Logar from Kharwara and the western range of mountains belong to Hazarajat. The river that flows to the south of their region is wrongly called the Ghazni river and waters a lot of their fields. Their northern territory is watered by the Logar river. The famous villages of this region are: Tangey,


Some Wardaks also live in the provinces of Kunar, Herat, Hilmand, Zabul, Ghazni and Baghlan. Those Wardaks that live in Kunar dwell in Loy Goriga, Ganshal and Jandul. The elders of Ganshal say that their original region is that of the Wardaks and they belong to the clan of Mayar. About 170 years earlier a few Wardak came to the region of Dir and some stayed there, while others went to Jandul and Ganshal. From Ganshal some families of the Wardaks went to Dangam 140 years ago. They became the farmers of the Salarzais and after some time they cultivated fallow land, which they later bought. Some Wardaks think that their ancestors fled and came here in the first governmental year of Amir Abdul Rahman Khan. Later they were given land by the Khan of Asmar and they stayed here. They cultivated their own land then. There is less trading by them and they are intermingled with the Salarzais and the Mamonds. All aspects of life, including their accent of language is influenced by those two tribes. Also, this part of Wardaks that live in Herat, have their own region, which is called Wardak area, and belongs to the administrative unit of Angil. Some Wardak live in Helmand province in the districts of Nadali and Nawe Barakzai. Other Wardaks live in the periphery of Rawalpindi in Chach and Natu. The abode of the Wardaks is very green, cultivated and fertile, but the autumn (fall) period is very short. Rice, wheat and barley are the products of it. Wardaks are all busy in agriculture and they are very hard working. Some of them are also cattle breeders. Their villages are very small. The names of their famous clans are the following:"

http://www.wardak.de/index.php/de/history

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

The Wardaks are Karlani Pashtoons by origin. This tribe came into being in the region of Barmal Ghar of the Sulaiman range of mountains and from there the whole group of the Karlanis spread into the regions they inhabit today.
To their west lie the mountains of Hazarajat and to the other direction the Ghilzai tribes. Their area from north to south is like an oasis, surrounded by mountains to east and west. Their dwelling places lies in the Parapamisos mountains that divide Logar from Kharwara and the western range of mountains belong to Hazarajat. The river that flows to the south of their region is wrongly called the Ghazni river and waters a lot of their fields. Their northern territory is watered by the Logar river. The famous villages of this region are: Tangey,

These are just sayings such as Abdali Pashtuns are descandants of Assadullah. How can 10 Mio Durani Pashtuns beeing descandants of Assadullah, a single person even if he lived in the 7th cntury? It may be correct for one part of the people but not for all. Beside that, the text´s issue is Kanlari not the Wardak´s self. The connect the Wardaks with the Kanlaris and than draw their myths on the Wardaks. That´s what is done with many Pashtun tribes, Indian tribes, Turkic, Iranian, Scottish...They moved from one day to another day to another place and claimed the region for themself and established their own myths and tribal there.

[Toramana]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Geneology.jpg

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

Toramana, wrora,

there it begins. ''Qais'', the Arab... so every Pashtun is an Arab? Qais bore Ghurghust and Ghurghusht Burhan and Burhan Karlan and Karlan all the rest? So through one man, an Arab, named Qais who lived in the 7th century, according to the Pashtun myth and genelogy, he is the father of 50mio.? Pashtuns world-wide? How many ''Sayyids'' do live today? You see brother, that´s not logical. Every nation is a confederation of many tribes, people and nation. I live in Germany, close to Czech Republic and the eastern German population are largely descandants of ancient ''Russian-related'' tribes who settled among Germans. That´s why 30% of all Germans have an eastern-European -suffix at the end of their surnames. The Czech Republic is a republic whos population trace their origine on Germans, ancient Russian-like tribes, ''Turks'' and some ancient Central Asian people. Hope you understand the context I serve it here. That´s why I told you about the Safis and their origine. Because the Safis in the north call themself among Darizubans Tajiks while Safis in Khowst and South or Pakistan among Pashtuns call themself as Pashtuns. Such as Tajiks have different origines of different people who once even spoke different languages of the region, such Pashtuns have, too.

Ps: Dawar tribe, also called Dawari are Tajiks. They are Persian-speakers. I could also create such a map and upload it in Wikipedia. That´s not the craft. That can do everyone.

manana o asalamu alaikum

[Toramana]

The first thing is Morgenstierne was a linguist not historian or genealogist. I will like to know the specific works by Morgenstierne that you have quoted the above claim from.

The second thing is, whereas generally it is true that tribes and ethnicities expand by assimilating smaller groups but to conjecture that there were substabtial number of Uzbaks, Mongols, Turks, Hazaras, etc. in the present region of Pashtun habitation that gave rise to entire clan and tribes in a matter of a couple of centuries is an idea too far-fetched. To prove this, you've to prove a number of other things e.g., that there really lived significant number of Mongols etc. in the region that later were absorbed by Pashtuns. And who were the Pashtuns that absorbed them is another hard thing to be proved.

In a book titled "Tawarikh-i-Hafiz-Rehmat Khani" authored in 1612-1615, Khakhi Khel and Ghori-Khel have been mentioned to be Pashtun tribal confederacies. So obviously, Abdali was not the only Pashtun tribal confederacy in 17th Century and earlier.

About Pashais and Nuristanis, I met them and have a different observation i.e., they are more inclined to identify with Pashtuns. But may be my interaction with them is limited and doesn't count for the attitude of all the Pashais.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

The first thing is Morgenstierne was a linguist not historian or genealogist. I will like to know the specific works by Morgenstierne that you have quoted the above claim from.

Morgenstierne have also written many works on the geneology of Pashtuns. F.ex. in Encyclopedia of Islamic. Just need an entry to the page. I once asked someone make a copy for me and also got it but I don´t find it more on my database. I will look for it.

The second thing is, whereas generally it is true that tribes and ethnicities expand by assimilating smaller groups but to conjecture that there were substabtial number of Uzbaks, Mongols, Turks, Hazaras, etc. in the present region of Pashtun habitation that gave rise to entire clan and tribes in a matter of a couple of centuries is an idea too far-fetched.

Than where is the problem? Every nation consists of different people and different origines. The Paryas f.ex. are originally an Indian tribe but belong today to the Pashais. The Paryas speak another language but identify themself as a sub-tribe of the Pashais. Not only in Laghman and Lowgar. The Ahmadzai´s claim beeing descandants of Arabs who came and settled there. So, they also were just adoptet and assimilated by interminggling with them. The Safi people are descandants of Tajiks, Pashais and Nuristanis or at least their ethnical essence is Tajik-Pashai who became Pashtunized. However, today majority of them in the north call themself Tajik among Persian-speakers and in Khowst and southern Afghanistan or Pakistan they call themself Pashtun, depends to whom they closely side by side live.

you've to prove a number of other things e.g., that there really lived significant number of Mongols etc. in the region that later were absorbed by Pashtuns. And who were the Pashtuns that absorbed them is another hard thing to be proved.

The number of those people does not matter. They were adoptet/''assimilated'' and became part of the main larger group, the group that lead the confederacy. They either will be called after their origine with the -suffix Zi or Khil or the will be called after their region they inhabitet. But they will be part of Pashtuns, no matter if they are of X, Z or P origine.

Khakhi Khel and Ghori-Khel have been mentioned to be Pashtun tribal confederacies. So obviously, Abdali was not the only Pashtun tribal confederacy in 17th Century and earlier.

Of course not. The Abdalis just claimed for themself beeing the real Afghans, the original and pure Afghans who just adoptet other tribes as part of themself. That´s why they were known in the West as Afghans and Ghalzais as Khalaj. Even the Mughals of India and Safavids of Iran called them Afghans and the Ghalzai Pashtuns as Khalaj. The Khalaj´s Pashtunization´s process was finished at the end of the 16th century. They got their -suffix Zai and were part of the larger Pashtun people with great influence on Pashtuns, ethnically and culturally.

[Pashtun_Ultranationalist]

Because many of them are not originally Pashtuns. They were just adoptet through victory and living with them for many centuries. The Barakzai tribe f.ex are also not real Pashtuns. Just became Pashtunized through intermarriages with them. Originally, they are descandants of a certain group called after their chief Barcca (arabized Barak) who was an Uzbek. Many Pashtuns on the otherside of Afghanistan have either originally a dardic or Indian/Rajput origine. All of them became Pashtunized the last 500 years due the political changes and ethnical movings. Wardaks are mixed of Tajiks, Pashtuns, Hazaras and Nuristanis. That´s their original background. Wardak was not always known as Wardak. The original name of the region is ''Maidan'' or ''Kalan-Maidan''. Hazaras and other non-Pashtuns still use that word for the region. The term ''Wardaki'' was not an ethnical or tribal identification (it became one in the past 150 years) but a regional identity. The term is taken from Dari ''Paradagh-a'', the name of an ancient tomb that was once there. Today noone know where it´s situated. This was the beginning and the corruption of the term Paradagh-a to Wardak. The ''Wardak'' became the last 200 years slowly Pashtu-speakers. That is possibly the reason why the brother on the top said that they look like non-Pashtun Tajiks. Btw, my cousin had married a woman from Wardak. Tribes, specially new formed tribes that are not adoptet by the Ghalzai or Durani confederacy become either Kanlari, Ghurghust or an own branch. The Wardaks became a Kanlari because of their regional neighbourhood to the Abdalis to which they not belong, so they were categorized to Kanlaris.

That is retarded.

Pashtuns are mixture of different kinds of people. This tribal system is aload of ****, and most people who speak against the Karlani Pashtuns are those brainwashed Semitified Tossers who think they are ancient israelites, ignroing the fact about Naziri etc.

Wardaks are Pashtuns, and the Karlani Pashtuns are Pashtuns, the name Karlani only came into being mentioned I am sure by that dude in mughal courts who wanted to make Pashtuns look holy, however, nobody gives a damme.

Meet a Wardak, and you see a fine Pashtun.

[Albani_Rahmat_Kabulzada]

All Pashtuns claim beeing children of Qais ... and my cousin married a girl from Wardak people so they are not alien or unrelated with me.

[Toramana]

Than where is the problem? Every nation consists of different people and different origines. The Paryas f.ex. are originally an Indian tribe but belong today to the Pashais. The Paryas speak another language but identify themself as a sub-tribe of the Pashais. Not only in Laghman and Lowgar. The Ahmadzai´s claim beeing descandants of Arabs who came and settled there. So, they also were just adoptet and assimilated by interminggling with them. The Safi people are descandants of Tajiks, Pashais and Nuristanis or at least their ethnical essence is Tajik-Pashai who became Pashtunized. However, today majority of them in the north call themself Tajik among Persian-speakers and in Khowst and southern Afghanistan or Pakistan they call themself Pashtun, depends to whom they closely side by side live.

Kabulzada, I never said Pashtuns evolved from a single blood line. That would be very unscientific and irrational to say. Obviously, there was a Pashtun protoethnicity which through elite domination and conquest or voluntary and need-driven interaction with neighbouring groups gave rise to Pashtun ethnicity. Alternatively, you can say that there were many groups that through harmonous or antagonistic but interdependent co-existence over a long perios evolved into the Pashtun nation.

Whichever way you look at it, it seems many diverse people living in the same or adjacent territories fused togethor to form the Pashtun ethnicity.

As for Pashtuns origin from Qais Abdur Rashid, obviously that is a myth. The worth of the geneologies is not in the veracity or falsehood of the story on which it is based; it is rather in the fact that the geneological information indicate the consciousness in the Pashtun people to be one and indivisible in every sense ---shared memories and history, values and ways(Pashtunwali), language, culture, heroes, etc.

What I contest is that the Pashtun ethnic formation is not recent ---and that it was not entirely due to conquest and domination.

[Toramana]

That is retarded.

Pashtuns are mixture of different kinds of people. This tribal system is aload of ****, and most people who speak against the Karlani Pashtuns are those brainwashed Semitified Tossers who think they are ancient israelites, ignroing the fact about Naziri etc.

Wardaks are Pashtuns, and the Karlani Pashtuns are Pashtuns, the name Karlani only came into being mentioned I am sure by that dude in mughal courts who wanted to make Pashtuns look holy, however, nobody gives a damme.

Meet a Wardak, and you see a fine Pashtun.

Kudos to you, Pashtun_ultranationalist! What a nationalist !

Karlanri tribes, including Wardaks, are one of the foremost Pashtuns...very patriotic and firm in their belief in being Pashtuns. Wardaks are one fine breed of Pashtuns...no doubt about that...

[gadoonwal]

i found wardagis respected,patriotic and very good pashtuns.kabulzada dear you can,nt change someone,s origin here on net.They are karlani pashtuns.

[gadoonwal]

Toramana, wrora,

there it begins. ''Qais'', the Arab... so every Pashtun is an Arab? Qais bore Ghurghust and Ghurghusht Burhan and Burhan Karlan and Karlan all the rest? So through one man, an Arab, named Qais who lived in the 7th century, according to the Pashtun myth and genelogy, he is the father of 50mio.? Pashtuns world-wide? How many ''Sayyids'' do live today? You see brother, that´s not logical. Every nation is a confederation of many tribes, people and nation. I live in Germany, close to Czech Republic and the eastern German population are largely descandants of ancient ''Russian-related'' tribes who settled among Germans. That´s why 30% of all Germans have an eastern-European -suffix at the end of their surnames. The Czech Republic is a republic whos population trace their origine on Germans, ancient Russian-like tribes, ''Turks'' and some ancient Central Asian people. Hope you understand the context I serve it here. That´s why I told you about the Safis and their origine. Because the Safis in the north call themself among Darizubans Tajiks while Safis in Khowst and South or Pakistan among Pashtuns call themself as Pashtuns. Such as Tajiks have different origines of different people who once even spoke different languages of the region, such Pashtuns have, too.

Ps: Dawar tribe, also called Dawari are Tajiks. They are Persian-speakers. I could also create such a map and upload it in Wikipedia. That´s not the craft. That can do everyone.

manana o asalamu alaikum

qais was not arab.This name was given to him by arabs after he converted to islam.
was al-beroni,jalaludin and ibni sena real arabs?
Most muslims have arabic names so should we call them arabs.

[Azmaray]

hahaha @ qais is arab