Are Sudhans considered Pashtuns ?

[Aham Brahmasmi]

hi there,

while i was reading about Dogra Brahmins History, i found this Artical.

Sudhan - Wikipedia

these Muslim Sudhans claim pashtun Afghan origins and are now using the term sudhozai as well.

now, interesting thing is, both hindu Sudhan and thse muslim sudhan lives in same area known as Jammu division(Dogr desh+poonch) and Dogra Brahmins used to follow a caste system where sudhan Brahmins are considred 3rd class Brahmins.

is there any connection between Sudhan Hindus and Pashtuns ? are these sudhozai/sudhans pashtuns ?

[Charsi Malang]

hi there,

while i was reading about Dogra Brahmins History, i found this Artical.

Sudhan - Wikipedia

these Muslim Sudhans claim pashtun Afghan origins and are now using the term sudhozai as well.

now, interesting thing is, both hindu Sudhan and thse muslim sudhan lives in same area known as Jammu division(Dogr desh+poonch) and Dogra Brahmins used to follow a caste system where sudhan Brahmins are considred 3rd class Brahmins.

is there any connection between Sudhan Hindus and Pashtuns ? are these sudhozai/sudhans pashtuns ?

Highly unlikely.

[Aham Brahmasmi]

Highly unlikely.

are you sure ?

[Charsi Malang]

are you sure ?

Yes mate.

[Samandri]

hi there,

while i was reading about Dogra Brahmins History, i found this Artical.

Sudhan - Wikipedia

these Muslim Sudhans claim pashtun Afghan origins and are now using the term sudhozai as well.

now, interesting thing is, both hindu Sudhan and thse muslim sudhan lives in same area known as Jammu division(Dogr desh+poonch) and Dogra Brahmins used to follow a caste system where sudhan Brahmins are considred 3rd class Brahmins.

is there any connection between Sudhan Hindus and Pashtuns ? are these sudhozai/sudhans pashtuns ?

They have only recently begin to claim themselves as Saddozais ........in all of the 19th century , early 20th century documents of British and in early years of Pakistan, they are recorded as a branch of Muhial Brahmans. The fact that Sudhan Hindus existed and exist, they can not be of Afghan descent.

Sudhans are fakes and their claim should not be taken seriously. Saddozais, from which the early royals of Durranis sprung, was/is a very small clan while these Sudhans are very numerous. Malik Saddo (died in 1620 AD), the progenitor of the tribe was a supporter of Shah Abbas the great and one of his grandson Malik Hussein was lieutenant of Prince Aurangzeb in Multan. Aurangzeb frequently mentions him in his letters. The history of the Saddozais is recorded in a book by name of Tazkirat-ul-mulk written for Shah Shuja, no where in it settlements of Saddozais in Kashmir are mentioned. 20th century works on Saddozais are also available and Sudhans are not mentioned as part of the small tribe. As they were royal clan, so their genealogical tables and other details are well preserved.

By the way "Sudhozai" سدهو زئ is a funny invention by them......there is no ھ in Pashto

[maneatinglizard]

there is no ھ in Pashto

Yes there is. For example:

• پوهنتون
• هيواد
• هيله

[salman47]

Yes there is. For example:

• پوهنتون
• هيواد
• هيله

He means spoken not written.

[Traveller]

Yes there is. For example:

• پوهنتون
• هيواد
• هيله

That's a different ھ. The one Samandri is talking about is one that is exclusive to Indic languages(and maybe Balochi). The one he's talking about does not represent an independent sound but is added to various letters to show their aspirated or "breathy" version. For example the word "Bhai" which in Urdu means "brother." It is written as بھائی. The بھ is one consonant. As I've mentioned before these sounds are largely confined to Indic languages. If you want to get an idea of how it sounds ask one of your Desi friends how they pronounce the word "Bhai."
Pashtuns are famous in Pakistan for not being able to pronounce these sounds as they do not exist in our language and it is part lf the stereotypical accent of Pashtuns when we speak Urdu. There is a different letter in Urdu for a regular hā. If we were to write bahai(which isn't a word but I'm using it to contrast with Bhai) it would be written بہائی.

[maneatinglizard]

That's a different ھ. The one Samandri is talking about is one that is exclusive to Indic languages(and maybe Balochi). The one he's talking about does not represent an independent sound but is added to various letters to show their aspirated or "breathy" version. For example the word "Bhai" which in Urdu means "brother." It is written as بھائی. The بھ is one consonant. As I've mentioned before these sounds are largely confined to Indic languages. If you want to get an idea of how it sounds ask one of your Desi friends how they pronounce the word "Bhai."
Pashtuns are famous in Pakistan for not being able to pronounce these sounds as they do not exist in our language and it is part lf the stereotypical accent of Pashtuns when we speak Urdu. There is a different letter in Urdu for a regular hā.

Oh I got it. I'm familiar with aspirated sounds in Indic languages, but am not completely familiar with how they're written in Arabic script since I never learned Urdu.

I thought he might've spoken an accent where ه is not pronounced as an actual ه, and thought it wasn't native to Pashto. My dialect is one of those actually. For example, we pronounce پوه "poy" and هيله "eela."

[Samandri]

I was talking about aspirated ھ. Sud-han is pronounced with aspirated sound. Its not Sadho-zai but Saddozai.

[Samandri]

Aham Brahmasmi

A Sudhan author of Kashmir has published a new book about history of his tribe. The author has realized that claim of link with royal Saddozais does not make any sense as their supposed progenitor "Nawab Jasi Khan" does not exist in any genealogical table of the Saddozais and timelines do not match. So he has made a new claim in his book that Sudhans are actually Saddozai branch of Utmanzai Mandanr-Yousafzais. But the author is not acquainted with complex Pashtun genealogies and he has confused Utmanzai Yousafzais with Utman Khel Karalanries and Utmankhel karalnaries with Ghurghusties. To make sense of so large numbers of Sudhans, he has come up with a claim that Saddozai migrated to Kashmir during the times of Mahmud of Ghaznavi.

As early as 1834, British surveyors mention Sudhans as Muhial Brahmans. They have always been Muhial Brahmans until recent decades.....the giving up on Brahman identity might be due to anti-Hindu anti-India sentiments, Kashmir insurgency and Jihadism in Kashmir. After Soviet Union collapse, Pashtuns/Afghans were propagated as heroic invincible mujahideen and it made the Sudhans eager to link themselves with them.

[Charsi Malang]

Aham Brahmasmi

A Sudhan author of Kashmir has published a new book about history of his tribe. The author has realized that claim of link with royal Saddozais does not make any sense as their supposed progenitor "Nawab Jasi Khan" does not exist in any genealogical table of the Saddozais and timelines do not match. So he has made a new claim in his book that Sudhans are actually Saddozai branch of Utmanzai Mandanr-Yousafzais. But the author is not acquainted with complex Pashtun genealogies and he has confused Utmanzai Yousafzais with Utman Khel Karalanries and Utmankhel karalnaries with Ghurghusties. To make sense of so large numbers of Sudhans, he has come up with a claim that Saddozai migrated to Kashmir during the times of Mahmud of Ghaznavi.

As early as 1834, British surveyors mention Sudhans as Muhial Brahmans. They have always been Muhial Brahmans until recent decades.....it might be due to anti-Hindu anti-India sentiments, Kashmir insurgency and Jihadism in Kashmir. After Soviet Union collapse, Pashtuns/Afghans were propagated as heroic invincible mujahideen and it made the Sudhans eager to link themselves with them.

I've met two Kashmiri people who claimed to ba Afghan. Of course not one of them could speak Pashto or Farsi. One of them with whom I had a long discussion actually claimed he was a Saddozai. He also claimed that Saddozai was a separate tribe in itself rather than a clan within the great Durrani tribe. Then as the conversation progressed, he did go on to explain, in typical fashion that we shouldn't worry about our tribes and instead our religion should take precedence over everything.

[Samandri]

I've met two Kashmiri people who claimed to ba Afghan. Of course not one of them could speak Pashto or Farsi. One of them with whom I had a long discussion actually claimed he was a Saddozai. He also claimed that Saddozai was a separate tribe in itself rather than a clan within the great Durrani tribe. Then as the conversation progressed, he did go on to explain, in typical fashion that we shouldn't worry about our tribes and instead our religion should take precedence over everything.

There are genuine Pashtuns and descendants of Pashtuns in Kashmir valley who can speak Pashto even today or could spoke it few decades ago. Its just that Sudhans (who are calling themselves Saddozai) are fake ones.

[Firdousi]

Last time I visited India (2012) I realized how so many Indians claimed an Afghan/Arab/Persian origin. This was widely spread specially among Indian Muslims. Desi inferiority complex is annoying.

[Charsi Malang]

There are genuine Pashtuns and descendants of Pashtuns in Kashmir valley who can speak Pashto even today or could spoke it few decades ago. Its just that Sudhans (who are calling themselves Saddozai) are fake ones.

I've never even heard of a Kashmiri being able to remotely understand or speak Pashto. People who have fled war in Afghanistan and KPK and settled in Kashmir may be able to just like if a Pashtun goes to any other part of the world. When you migrate and raise your family elsewhere you have to be prepared for the fact that a generation or two later they will have very little in common with their original ancestors.

One particular fellow who I was talking about in an earlier post also insisted that the correct name for the "Saddozai" subtribe of the Durrani was "Soddanzai" so it seems he had been fed utter garbage about his Afghan lineage and was actually a Sudhan. However he claimed to be a devout Muslim. What a strange strange world we live in.

I don't understand why people will argue to such great lengths about their Pashtun/Afghan lineage when clearly no effort whatsoever has been made by them to preserve it. It all boils down to the Desi mindset that Afghan and Pashtun are to be treated like some kind of caste, and that affiliation will carry merit and credibility.