Jun 1961 - “Pakhtoonistan” Dispute. Pakistani Allegations of Afghan Incursions.

[Peacelove]

This is a very good point, Saleem Safi once brought this up in an interview with Hamid Karzai. Tajiks and Uzbeks are also divided by a border, but neither Uzbekistan or Tajikistan bothers Afghanistan about Balkh or Badakhshan belonging to them, so is it fair for Afghanistan to do the same with Pakistan?



Referendum is unnecessary but if Afghanistan asked for it, I'd support it. In the end it'll only prove the point that Pashtuns feel better off in Pakistan than they would in Afghanistan.

1) Referendum is unnecessary but if Afghanistan asked for it, I'd support it. In the end it'll only prove the point that Pashtuns feel better off in Pakistan than they would in Afghanistan
This myth should be settled at once i believe to have a clear relationship between two countries. Referendum is unnecessary if people in our province really want to surge for independence everybody will see it.There should be referendum in pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan both simultaneous with a freedom to join Pakistan or Afghanistan..This will settled it.
Pakistan should not alone allow it to be bully by a state like afghanistan..They are fighting even before 1947 when paksitan does not exist..Reason= ethnic or tribal nationalism tajik Vs Pashtun or Uzbek Vs Tajik. Why we import this ethnic nationalism and destroy our country..Afghanistan does not allow us by default passport of there country and with same tongue says we are one...

2) Did you notice most Afghan nationals were speaking in urdu ? It means they definitely spent time in Pakistan for study ..No wise men will support these delusions to destroy my KP and Pakistan..Where we will go then for education and all..Pashtuns are assimilated in Pakistan ..More pashtuns in Karachi then Kabul ..Doing business and studying all this..This is what pakistan giving us..India provide ticket for 6,000 Mashallah ..if this is the logic Afghans has then GOD save us by there thinking..

3) Pakistanyat is now part and parcel of life..

[Sarbani]

I heard that the Pashtuns of Bajaur were against Afghanistan annexing their land and fought on the side of the Paki military. Surprised they were really that brainwashed only 14 years after the creation of Pakistan.

[Elite Pakhtun]

India provide ticket for 6,000 Mashallah ..if this is the logic Afghans has then GOD save us by there thinking..

What do you mean? What's wrong with this?

Good for them. If India is offering a lower price, allow them to maximize the free market.

It'll be better... they'll see how different they are from Indians. Right now they're in a honeymoon phase, and they think India is great because it's not Pakistan. Perhaps first hand view of cows everywhere, beggars everywhere, and all the things they hate about "punjabis" (i.e. indics... they think all Pakistanis are Indics, who they believe are Punjabis... long story) that they see in Pakistan will simply be exaggerated to a greater degree.

Rs 6000 is dirt cheap... I have my doubts as to whether this is actually a thing. It's still cheaper for them to go to Pakistan, unless it's from the other end of Afghanistan.

[Peacelove]

What do you mean? What's wrong with this?

Good for them. If India is offering a lower price, allow them to maximize the free market.

It'll be better... they'll see how different they are from Indians. Right now they're in a honeymoon phase, and they think India is great because it's not Pakistan. Perhaps first hand view of cows everywhere, beggars everywhere, and all the things they hate about "punjabis" (i.e. indics... they think all Pakistanis are Indics, who they believe are Punjabis... long story) that they see in Pakistan will simply be exaggerated to a greater degree.

Rs 6000 is dirt cheap... I have my doubts as to whether this is actually a thing. It's still cheaper for them to go to Pakistan, unless it's from the other end of Afghanistan.

Totally agree with you...This is what i was implying unless somebody living in other corner like Mazari sharif.. The problem is they reap all benefits and curse paksitan..See Iran has never allow them to use there port and Karachi port is at there disposal from last 50 years ..It is just now Iran has allowed them the utilization of Chahbar..Being a landlock it was just pakistan that did allow them to use port and no other country..I wish more afghans visit India in million and see the reality ..They have taken pakistan for granted. No other country allow them to cross the border like Pakistan

[Elite Pakhtun]

Totally agree with you...This is what i was implying unless somebody living in other corner like Mazari sharif.. The problem is they reap all benefits and curse paksitan..See Iran has never allow them to use there port and Karachi port is at there disposal from last 50 years ..It is just now Iran has allowed them the utilization of Chahbar..Being a landlock it was just pakistan that did allow them to use port and no other country..I wish more afghans visit India in million and see the reality ..They have taken pakistan for granted. No other country allow them to cross the border like Pakistan

Yes. The thing that really boils my blood is that we let Afghanis come into Pakistan, no questions asked, set up businesses, literally do as they please (try letting these Afghanis do that in a Western nation... you need to pass through a checklist before they even let you in... forget setting up businesses and coming and going as you please, they'd deport you using any excuse they find), and then when it comes time to reciprocate, it's met with violence.

There is ample news and stories of Pakistanis going to Afghanistan to work, and some POS just shot them dead. Or when they're visiting, they have to deal with extra BS/red tape. Nazia Iqbal apparently was stuck in the airport... because Afghanistan. There are reaction videos on YouTube to the killing of Pakistani laborers.

There are many good Afghans though, and we should work to build bridges instead of burning them. We'll always have enemies. That's just a fact.

[Peacelove]

Yes. The thing that really boils my blood is that we let Afghanis come into Pakistan, no questions asked, set up businesses, literally do as they please (try letting these Afghanis do that in a Western nation... you need to pass through a checklist before they even let you in... forget setting up businesses and coming and going as you please, they'd deport you using any excuse they find), and then when it comes time to reciprocate, it's met with violence.

There is ample news and stories of Pakistanis going to Afghanistan to work, and some POS just shot them dead. Or when they're visiting, they have to deal with extra BS/red tape. Nazia Iqbal apparently was stuck in the airport... because Afghanistan. There are reaction videos on YouTube to the killing of Pakistani laborers.

There are many good Afghans though, and we should work to build bridges instead of burning them. We'll always have enemies. That's just a fact.

I wish we have good relations with Afghanistan.. Issue is they always try to do bad for pakistan..Leave western countries , will Indian which according to them is Fairyland, will allow them to cross the border in thousands without passport and vissa..Then setting up business there and while sitting there cursing india ..I think pakistan should open wagha or other borders to cross afghans into India..Tajikistan, Turkemenaistan and Uzbekistan did they allow them to cross freely and do whatever they like..Issue is sometime even to our own brother we have to deal with him in a way that he realize the ground realities...I have seen videos they are killing innocent pakistanis and call them punjabis or etc ..Ayub realize this to Daoud and he then beg to ayub to reopen the borders..

[Porus]

1) Referendum is unnecessary but if Afghanistan asked for it, I'd support it. In the end it'll only prove the point that Pashtuns feel better off in Pakistan than they would in Afghanistan
This myth should be settled at once i believe to have a clear relationship between two countries. Referendum is unnecessary if people in our province really want to surge for independence everybody will see it.There should be referendum in pashtun areas of Afghanistan and Pakistan both simultaneous with a freedom to join Pakistan or Afghanistan..This will settled it.
Pakistan should not alone allow it to be bully by a state like afghanistan..They are fighting even before 1947 when paksitan does not exist..Reason= ethnic or tribal nationalism tajik Vs Pashtun or Uzbek Vs Tajik. Why we import this ethnic nationalism and destroy our country..Afghanistan does not allow us by default passport of there country and with same tongue says we are one...

2) Did you notice most Afghan nationals were speaking in urdu ? It means they definitely spent time in Pakistan for study ..No wise men will support these delusions to destroy my KP and Pakistan..Where we will go then for education and all..Pashtuns are assimilated in Pakistan ..More pashtuns in Karachi then Kabul ..Doing business and studying all this..This is what pakistan giving us..India provide ticket for 6,000 Mashallah ..if this is the logic Afghans has then GOD save us by there thinking..

3) Pakistanyat is now part and parcel of life..

Exactly my friend. If you don't mind me asking, what part of Pakistan are you from brother?

[Shapur]

I think secretly the Afghan government does recognise the line, Amrullah Saleh has said a number of times that he has told the Pakistanis not to make the border irrelevant, and stop allowing terrorists to go into Afghanistan.

Even if a traitor Afghan government recognizes the Durand Line, the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will not. You have to remember that Pashtuns don't recognize unilateral decisions made by some head of state without consulting the Jirga first. What Abdur Rahman Khan did by agreeing to the Durand Line treaty was unilateral without holding a Jirga among Pashtuns of both sides so his decision is already seen as illegal and holds no merit among Pashtuns. I know what the international law says and nobody supports us but giving up is not an option.

But this puts Pakistan in a precarious situation because I think the state feels that it can't take action against ALL terrorists. As much as Nawaz would like people to believe that, the National Action Plan has been a farce. It's like having a taster at a restaurant for a meal that's not even on the menu. There has to be political will on the Pakistani side for anything solid to take place. Although Afghans and Indians believe that the Pakistani establishment has the power to rid the country of terrorism (and they're right), they can't do that themselves. Now that we have some form of a democracy, there has to be some political will on the civilian side to match the brute force that Pak Army can use. If the Pak Army decides to do it itself, the government will collapse and the military will takeover once again. I don't think even the military wants to have a coup this time.

The real reason Pakistan doesn't take action against millitants is because Pakistani state sees extremist millitants as an asset to be used in Kashmir and Afghanistan and other places where ever they might be needed. After the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan some of these mujahideen were sent over to Kashmir which saw a spike in violance in the 90s. There is also Saudi/Gulf funding which goes to Madrassas and Pakistan has to toe the Saudi line to a certain extent in order to get aid from Saudis and keep them happy, so it can not completely crack down on Salafi/Ahle hadith types without upsetting the Saudis. At the same time Pakistani state can't afford to give these Saudi funded groups free hand because majority of Punjabis, Sindhis are Barelivis and these groups would cause huge problems if given free hands. Thus the Pakistani state has learned to live with these groups, they are given a platform to voice their opinions and have a few sympathizers within the elite but they don't pose a substantial threat to the state and can be used as a counter balance to Iranian proxies.
There is a strange sort of a situation between religious groups and secular groups in Pakistan where they can live side by side holding completely opposing views. The strong military is what keeps both sides in line and makes sure their co existence otherwise they would have eaten each other alive.

I'm for the removal of the two nation theory, but not Pakistan as a Federation. My stance has always been the same: remove the Pakistan ideology, remove Urdu as a 'national' language, and give provinces the right to teach their own language alongside English. I don't however think that Pakistan should disintegrate into different countries. Open borders are fine, so long as there is some control but ethnic disintegration rarely ever goes without bloodshed (as we've seen in Bangladesh). Yes, you've rightly said as well that if we're talking about Pashtun reunification as a state, then we'll also have to address the Farsi speakers who live in Afghanistan. Already Afghanistan leans more towards a Persianate state, as opposed to Pashtun. All official documents are printed in Farsi, popular culture is mostly Persian, and rightly so, Persian is what brings different ethnicities together.

I am also not against Federation but not in its current form. As I said earlier an EU style union would be ideal in my opinion. I don't know why you say there would be bloodshed? People will stay where they already are, doing what they already do. The only difference will be things will be more natural and Punjabis, Pashtuns, Baloch, will not have to speak Urdu and will have more control over their own resources and less centralization will mean better governance.

What you said about Farsi holds true due to historical reasons but just to clarify, official documents by law in pashtun majority areas are in Pashto in places such as Kandahar, Jalalabad, khost etc. As literacy rate increases among Pashtuns in Afghanistan, the Pashto language will see a revival. Already there are at least more than 15 Pashto language channels in Afghanistan and Pashto is being utilized in all walks of life and this will increase as peace and stability returns.

[Porus]

Even if a traitor Afghan government recognizes the Durand Line, the Pashtuns of Afghanistan will not. You have to remember that Pashtuns don't recognize unilateral decisions made by some head of state without consulting the Jirga first. What Abdur Rahman Khan did by agreeing to the Durand Line treaty was unilateral without holding a Jirga among Pashtuns of both sides so his decision is already seen as illegal and holds no merit among Pashtuns. I know what the international law says and nobody supports us but giving up is not an option.

That will always be a problem then, if we talk about Pashtuns in Pakistan as a collective whole I think most of them do recognise the boundary, if that holds true then it's appropriate for the Afghans to recognise it too. Doesn't mean it hinders free movement, just needs to be acknowledged.

The real reason Pakistan doesn't take action against millitants is because Pakistani state sees extremist millitants as an asset to be used in Kashmir and Afghanistan and other places where ever they might be needed. After the Soviet withdrawl from Afghanistan some of these mujahideen were sent over to Kashmir which saw a spike in violance in the 90s. There is also Saudi/Gulf funding which goes to Madrassas and Pakistan has to toe the Saudi line to a certain extent in order to get aid from Saudis and keep them happy, so it can not completely crack down on Salafi/Ahle hadith types without upsetting the Saudis. At the same time Pakistani state can't afford to give these Saudi funded groups free hand because majority of Punjabis, Sindhis are Barelivis and these groups would cause huge problems if given free hands. Thus the Pakistani state has learned to live with these groups, they are given a platform to voice their opinions and have a few sympathizers within the elite but they don't pose a substantial threat to the state and can be used as a counter balance to Iranian proxies.
There is a strange sort of a situation between religious groups and secular groups in Pakistan where they can live side by side holding completely opposing views. The strong military is what keeps both sides in line and makes sure their co existence otherwise they would have eaten each other alive.

I don't know how much power the strategic depth doctrine still holds. Pakistan is stuck in a vice at this point and doesn't really know what to do. Pak Mil knows it can't keep supporting Afghan terror groups, but can't get rid of them without the civilians taking the lead. Kashmir issue lags on because the Indians are killing them left-right and centre.

I am also not against Federation but not in its current form. As I said earlier an EU style union would be ideal in my opinion. I don't know why you say there would be bloodshed? People will stay where they already are, doing what they already do. The only difference will be things will be more natural and Punjabis, Pashtuns, Baloch, will not have to speak Urdu and will have more control over their own resources and less centralization will mean better governance.

Yep. If Pakistan wants to keep hold of its multi-ethnic identity, it'll have to act fast. Afghanistan should also learn from India's policy of having dozens of official languages, or languages like Pashayi, Brahui, Turkomen, Baluchi, Yaghnobi, Nuristani, Kyrgyz and Wakhi might die out.

What you said about Farsi holds true due to historical reasons but just to clarify, official documents by law in pashtun majority areas are in Pashto in places such as Kandahar, Jalalabad, khost etc. As literacy rate increases among Pashtuns in Afghanistan, the Pashto language will see a revival. Already there are at least more than 15 Pashto language channels in Afghanistan and Pashto is being utilized in all walks of life and this will increase as peace and stability returns.

Hope it does. It'd be sad to see Pashto become limited to Afghanistan only, KP and FATA host the largest population of Pashtuns. They shouldn't lose their language here.

[Peacelove]

That will always be a problem then, if we talk about Pashtuns in Pakistan as a collective whole I think most of them do recognise the boundary, if that holds true then it's appropriate for the Afghans to recognise it too. Doesn't mean it hinders free movement, just needs to be acknowledged.



I don't know how much power the strategic depth doctrine still holds. Pakistan is stuck in a vice at this point and doesn't really know what to do. Pak Mil knows it can't keep supporting Afghan terror groups, but can't get rid of them without the civilians taking the lead. Kashmir issue lags on because the Indians are killing them left-right and centre.



Yep. If Pakistan wants to keep hold of its multi-ethnic identity, it'll have to act fast. Afghanistan should also learn from India's policy of having dozens of official languages, or languages like Pashayi, Brahui, Turkomen, Baluchi, Yaghnobi, Nuristani, Kyrgyz and Wakhi might die out.



Hope it does. It'd be sad to see Pashto become limited to Afghanistan only, KP and FATA host the largest population of Pashtuns. They shouldn't lose their language here.

1) That will always be a problem then, if we talk about Pashtuns in Pakistan as a collective whole I think most of them do recognise the boundary, if that holds true then it's appropriate for the Afghans to recognise it too. Doesn't mean it hinders free movement, just needs to be acknowledged. DIK....
They have some special beef with Pakistan..There was no need of Jirgah when it comes to acknowledgement of its borders with Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan.People in pakistan consider durand line as boundary or simply put they don't care what is important that we get something to eat and live a healthy life.

2) ep. If Pakistan wants to keep hold of its multi-ethnic identity, it'll have to act fast. Afghanistan should also learn from India's policy of having dozens of official languages, or languages like Pashayi, Brahui, Turkomen, Baluchi, Yaghnobi, Nuristani, Kyrgyz and Wakhi might die out.

Pakistan is doing fine we don;t need to promote ethnic chauvinism..People when mingle with each other fell sympathy ..Like pashtun travelling to karachi or lahore are mixed there if something happens they react to it..If you keep one tribe or etnicity away from other they will no longer feel any affinity to each other.This is what happening in Afghanistan..Tajik don't feel for Pashtun and vice versa.. Uzbek don't fell for tajik and the list goes on..Why ? because they live in there vicinity and does not allow each other space to move...I am totally against this ethnic nationalism in pakistan as it will not bring good for my people instead more like Achkzai will be produced who tend to divide us.

3) don't know how much power the strategic depth doctrine still holds. Pakistan is stuck in a vice at this point and doesn't really know what to do. Pak Mil knows it can't keep supporting Afghan terror groups, but can't get rid of them without the civilians taking the lead. Kashmir issue lags on because the Indians are killing them left-right and centre.
This strategic depth concept died the day Pakistan become nuclear nation.

See what is happening to EU , it will be more disaster here..There the right wing is gaining and wining elections..In our case one group will start to fight with each other.. Lot of ammunition is available to each group .

If people started to put there tribal or ethnic affinity above then nationality we will face a same disaster what we are facing now in afghanistan..We are good here second most in army in every state institution we are serving no body can subdue us here..See what Tajiks/farsis doing in afghanistan..At the end we care about our well being and earning to spend a life with family.

[Shapur]

1) Borders are meaningless but then practically no body allow us to enter any other country except Passport and Visa so in real world borders do exist and are respected..Question here is do afgahnistan accept its border with Tajikistan , Turkemanistan and Uzbekistan and who marks that ? If yes then why ?
Both issues are reciprocal to each other not accepting durand line and then reassurance does not get along in my humble opinion afghanistan would gain more if it formally accept the border. As such there is no desire in KP or any other pashtuns areas to merge with afghanistan.They are paksitanis like anybody else and this video proves it.

When we travel within European Union we don't need Visa. I know our region is not stable enough for this to happen but it will happen in the future. Borders are not the problem, borders exist within Pakistan as well for example between Pakhtunkhwa and Punjab. The real issue is when borders are used to seperate people on purpose and then deliberately keep them apart to increase the distance between people who would normally be the closest to each other. Don't you find it ironic that a Pashtun from Afghanistan or Pakistan needs permission from a Punajbi/Tajik to travel to each other's area? A pashtun from Afghanistan can't buy property in Pashtun area of Pakistan but Punjabi can just because he is from Pakistan. What kind of absurdity is that? By the same token, a Pakistani Pashtun may not be able to buy property in jalalabad but Hazara can just because they live in Afghanistan. I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. So borders are not just lines on a piece of paper but they have real life implications on trade, cultural exchange, identity and self determination.

As a Pashtun my concern is not Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan. Tajiks, Uzbeks can voice their opinion and work for their goals if they want, I have no problem with that. My priority is Pashtuns and achieving the interests of Pashtuns through fair means. As you might know many of the boundries of the modern nation states were drawn by colonialists but we don't have to accept their decisions. The Durand Line agreement was between Amir of Afghanistan and the British empire, not Pakistan and the agreement only mentions spheres of influence, not nation states. Anyways, among Pashtuns all important decisions needed to be first agreed upon the Jirga, Amir Abdur Rahman khan signed the agreement himself without consulting the Jirga of Pashtuns from both sides so the agreement has no legal bases or value in the eyes of Pashtuns.

I agree there is no desire to merge due to a number of reasons such as the poor image of Afghanistan, its weak economy, pakistani state indoctrination etc. But I can say with full confidence that when Afghanistan is economically prosperous and the communication between pashtuns of both sides increase which is inevitable in the age of social media, fast transporation, globalization, these apprehensions will subside because people on both sides will see that their strength is in their unity.

This will simply lead to balkanization of country afghanistan can afford this but Pakistan does not. And our people will get nothing by joining a state base on ethnicity.

How can you say it will lead to Balkanization? We are not the Balkans who are Christians, muslims, Serbs, Croats etc. You can't compare the two. We Pashtuns are all muslims and speak the same language, we live in our own areas from thousands of years before Afghanistan and Pakistan came into being. You are thinking of Indo-Pak partition scenario which is completely irrelevant in this case. As Pashtuns we have the right to preserve our language, culture and way of life. I don't want to sing Farsi/Urdu anthem. I want to be able to settle in any Pashtun area I want without asking the permission of non pashtuns.

If Nationalism is wrong then ethnic nationalism is worst and leads to more blood shed. If today we agree on this tomorrow we will fight for tribal affinity and the list will continue .My tribe has more pride more right to rule and the vicious circle will continue..We are getting education here jobs good well being (not ideal) but why we revolt against state and make our life miserable..King in past accept this border line and to serve kabul through other part to British.Now the situation is change so this thing is pooping up..Why to create anarchy in country..Solution you are presenting will produce more like Achazkzai..

I never said nationalism is wrong but for me nationalism should come naturally. It is natural for a pashtun to respect Khushal Khan Khattak, Ahmad Shah baba, etc and they are the natural icons of Pashtun identity. It is un natural to respect Jinnah an ismailli Shia from Gujrat India for a pashtun. What is the basis of Pakistani nationalism? Is the basis Islam? then why exclude other muslims such as Afghans, Tajiks, uzbeks, Iranians if the basis is truly Islam. If the basis is a country for the muslims of sub continent then Pashtuns and Baloch are neither Indic nor belong to the sub continent. Is it language? It can't be because Pakistanis speak a dozen different languages and the national language Urdu was imported from what is northern India. Is it hanafi islam? then why exclude Tajiks, uzbeks, who are more similar to pashtun version of hanafi islam than the Barelvi Punjabis and Sindhis. What is the basis of pakistani nationalism then and how do pashtuns fit in?

I am not suggesting any revolt against the state which can be counter productive and create anarchy but asking for simple rights such as being able to use our language in all spheres of life, self rule, more control over our natural resources etc.

Nothing is free in this world and sometimes blood is spilled to do what is right but what fascinates me is that some Pashtuns are willing spill their blood for Kashmir, in useless wars with India but not for their own interests. India has no problem with Pashtuns as long as Pashtuns don't stick their nose in Kashmir issue and internal Desi politics which has nothing to do with us Pashtuns but we pashtuns have taken it upon ourselves be the "tikadar" of other people's problems. If pashtuns are truly concerned about ummah then why not help Rohingya muslims, the uighur muslims in China etc.

[Shapur]

This is what the mullahs preach and it is not the way of the future. Man has been trying to do that for a very long time. The problem has always been that corrupt individuals slither their way in and use the system for their own personal gain that eventually leads to bankruptcy.

Power is in numbers, you need to join populations rather than divide from them. Nationalism is against this principle.

Corruption is always a problem whether in Sharia theocracy or secular democracy because we are dealing with humans who are prone to corruption. The goal is to put in place measures and make the system as free of corruption as possible and prevent the corrupt individuals from infiltrating the system.

Power is in numbers which is true to a certain extent but how much of your identity you have to sacrifice for the security in numbers? I don't know what nationalism means to you but to me it is simply means caring about language, culture and looking after the interests of your nation within the rules of Islam. You can join populations without sacrificing on these principles, it is not a zero sum game. Sometimes, interests collide where the resources are limited and can lead to conflict, but that has happened through out human history and is some times unavoidable.

[Peacelove]

When we travel within European Union we don't need Visa. I know our region is not stable enough for this to happen but it will happen in the future. Borders are not the problem, borders exist within Pakistan as well for example between Pakhtunkhwa and Punjab. The real issue is when borders are used to seperate people on purpose and then deliberately keep them apart to increase the distance between people who would normally be the closest to each other. Don't you find it ironic that a Pashtun from Afghanistan or Pakistan needs permission from a Punajbi/Tajik to travel to each other's area? A pashtun from Afghanistan can't buy property in Pashtun area of Pakistan but Punjabi can just because he is from Pakistan. What kind of absurdity is that? By the same token, a Pakistani Pashtun may not be able to buy property in jalalabad but Hazara can just because they live in Afghanistan. I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. So borders are not just lines on a piece of paper but they have real life implications on trade, cultural exchange, identity and self determination.

As a Pashtun my concern is not Tajikistan, Uzbekistan or Turkmenistan. Tajiks, Uzbeks can voice their opinion and work for their goals if they want, I have no problem with that. My priority is Pashtuns and achieving the interests of Pashtuns through fair means. As you might know many of the boundries of the modern nation states were drawn by colonialists but we don't have to accept their decisions. The Durand Line agreement was between Amir of Afghanistan and the British empire, not Pakistan and the agreement only mentions spheres of influence, not nation states. Anyways, among Pashtuns all important decisions needed to be first agreed upon the Jirga, Amir Abdur Rahman khan signed the agreement himself without consulting the Jirga of Pashtuns from both sides so the agreement has no legal bases or value in the eyes of Pashtuns.

I agree there is no desire to merge due to a number of reasons such as the poor image of Afghanistan, its weak economy, pakistani state indoctrination etc. But I can say with full confidence that when Afghanistan is economically prosperous and the communication between pashtuns of both sides increase which is inevitable in the age of social media, fast transporation, globalization, these apprehensions will subside because people on both sides will see that their strength is in their unity.



How can you say it will lead to Balkanization? We are not the Balkans who are Christians, muslims, Serbs, Croats etc. You can't compare the two. We Pashtuns are all muslims and speak the same language, we live in our own areas from thousands of years before Afghanistan and Pakistan came into being. You are thinking of Indo-Pak partition scenario which is completely irrelevant in this case. As Pashtuns we have the right to preserve our language, culture and way of life. I don't want to sing Farsi/Urdu anthem. I want to be able to settle in any Pashtun area I want without asking the permission of non pashtuns.



I never said nationalism is wrong but for me nationalism should come naturally. It is natural for a pashtun to respect Khushal Khan Khattak, Ahmad Shah baba, etc and they are the natural icons of Pashtun identity. It is un natural to respect Jinnah an ismailli Shia from Gujrat India for a pashtun. What is the basis of Pakistani nationalism? Is the basis Islam? then why exclude other muslims such as Afghans, Tajiks, uzbeks, Iranians if the basis is truly Islam. If the basis is a country for the muslims of sub continent then Pashtuns and Baloch are neither Indic nor belong to the sub continent. Is it language? It can't be because Pakistanis speak a dozen different languages and the national language Urdu was imported from what is northern India. Is it hanafi islam? then why exclude Tajiks, uzbeks, who are more similar to pashtun version of hanafi islam than the Barelvi Punjabis and Sindhis. What is the basis of pakistani nationalism then and how do pashtuns fit in?

I am not suggesting any revolt against the state which can be counter productive and create anarchy but asking for simple rights such as being able to use our language in all spheres of life, self rule, more control over our natural resources etc.

Nothing is free in this world and sometimes blood is spilled to do what is right but what fascinates me is that some Pashtuns are willing spill their blood for Kashmir, in useless wars with India but not for their own interests. India has no problem with Pashtuns as long as Pashtuns don't stick their nose in Kashmir issue and internal Desi politics which has nothing to do with us Pashtuns but we pashtuns have taken it upon ourselves be the "tikadar" of other people's problems. If pashtuns are truly concerned about ummah then why not help Rohingya muslims, the uighur muslims in China etc.

1) Nothing is free in this world and sometimes blood is spilled to do what is right but what fascinates me is that some Pashtuns are willing spill their blood for Kashmir, in useless wars with India but not for their own interests. India has no problem with Pashtuns as long as Pashtuns don't stick their nose in Kashmir issue and internal Desi politics which has nothing to do with us Pashtuns but we pashtuns have taken it upon ourselves be the "tikadar" of other people's problems. If pashtuns are truly concerned about ummah then why not help Rohingya muslims, the uighur muslims in China etc

Yes we do intend to shed blood for kashmir because we are integral part of Army..Why not shed blood for a nation or state that has given us so much no other states has elevated us as much as paksitan..I love Afghanistan but not more than Pakistan.This is where our kids and generation getting education , building there lives and holding strength in armed forces..We will definitely fight against Hindus..Afghanistan may decide not to fight since they are good friends to each other..Pashtuns in Pakistan are loyal to the state or land they are served in..We will prefer pakistan interest to afghanistan because it is Paksitan that will fight for us against anyone..Afghanistan who knows will again rule by some king or tribal or warlord through us to wolves just to protect his kingdom or whatever..We fight against USSR in afghanistan also so what you are saying is not fully correct..We would prefer our people get more rights more education but within the loyal umberalla of Pakistan..

2) I never said nationalism is wrong but for me nationalism should come naturally. It is natural for a pashtun to respect Khushal Khan Khattak, Ahmad Shah baba, etc and they are the natural icons of Pashtun identity. It is un natural to respect Jinnah an ismailli Shia from Gujrat India for a pashtun. What is the basis of Pakistani nationalism?

I respect and adore Ahmed shah baba , Khushal khan khattack no doubt in it.They are our heroes..But after that Had we gone by that logic we would have support Bacha khan baba, who want pashtuns to remain loyal to India..He bring Nehru with him in tribal areas also.. See what elders did to Nehru and what they did to Jinnah. I would respect a leader who let us free from the evil Hindus not the one who wanted us to live with them..Pakistan nationalism was simple protecting the lives and better hood of people living in the areas what is now called as pakistan.And i am all for giving refuge to afghans or burmes Pakistan has done this in past also..Ideology is simple two nations where neither ethnicity nor secularism will prevail.

3) Don't you find it ironic that a Pashtun from Afghanistan or Pakistan needs permission from a Punajbi/Tajik to travel to each other's area? A pashtun from Afghanistan can't buy property in Pashtun area of Pakistan but Punjabi can just because he is from Pakistan. What kind of absurdity is that? By the same token, a Pakistani Pashtun may not be able to buy property in jalalabad but Hazara can just because they live in Afghanistan. I hope you realize how dumb that sounds. So borders are not just lines on a piece of paper but they have real life implications on trade, cultural exchange, identity and self determination.

Again this will just cause harm to us not good..Millions of pashtuns then have to leave karachi lahore and areas..Sindhis will say we prefer sindhis in karachi to buy property or do business you live in your pashtun lands..Same will be said by punjabis and other..And the say will come when we started to feel nothing for each other that will bring misery to us..Like in afghanistan rulers invite other because they are much hostile to other section of the group or ethnicity..
I love pashtuns where ever they are but the chronological order i follow is

1) Muslim 2) Pakistan 3)Paktun
and that is why we are united and able to protect the interest of each other..Why i stop some other to buy things in KP if they follow the same we will never get admission in good universities in lahore or karachi..

What you referring is complete utopia , instead better to flourish ourselves with the realities we are living in..

Why to betray the nation or say bad about Jinnah..When Molana shabber usmani pray his funeral..Why i say bad about a guy who let us get independence for Hindus and Britishers..Why we betray a people who did not left us in time of need..Bacha khan was supporting congresss Nehru Hindu, so now a hindu nehru is good just because someone don't like Jinnah. Sorry for that we can't do that
With same logic we should support Achakzai or Asfandyar then a Niazi Imran who lives in Punjab and getting looted by asfandyar again..No we better ruled by Imran who is doing good then both of these..Police , hospitals, education all are getting better in his era..

[Shapur]

Yes. The thing that really boils my blood is that we let Afghanis come into Pakistan, no questions asked, set up businesses, literally do as they please (try letting these Afghanis do that in a Western nation... you need to pass through a checklist before they even let you in... forget setting up businesses and coming and going as you please, they'd deport you using any excuse they find), and then when it comes time to reciprocate, it's met with violence.

There is ample news and stories of Pakistanis going to Afghanistan to work, and some POS just shot them dead. Or when they're visiting, they have to deal with extra BS/red tape. Nazia Iqbal apparently was stuck in the airport... because Afghanistan. There are reaction videos on YouTube to the killing of Pakistani laborers.

There are many good Afghans though, and we should work to build bridges instead of burning them. We'll always have enemies. That's just a fact.

Who is We?

There is a reason why most Pashtuns came to Pakistan during the war and there is a reason why there are Wazir IDPs in Afghanistan. That reason is because we are one and the same. Why are you comparing internal Pashtun matters to how Pashtuns will be treated in Western countries? What is the relevance here?

I do admit that Pashtuns were treated pretty good by the local people and comparatively better by the Pakistani authorites than for example, Iran. Pashtuns of Afghanistan do appreciate the hospitality of Lar Pashtuns but it doesn't mean Pakistan can use this good deed they have to always blackmail Afghanistan or expect Afghanistan not to stand up for its self interests. The merit of a good deed is lost when the intention is not pure. We must not forget that Pakistan also benefited from the Afghan-Soviet War because the main aim of the Soviet Union was to reach the warm waters of Indian ocean so Pakistan was next on the line if Afghanistan didn't resist.

I have a few relatives who still in Peshawar and some of them have intermarried with locals. They were never given a penny by Pakistan government and pay their own rent and all other expenses. I don't expect Pakistan to pay them because Pakistan is itself poor and doesn't have a welfare system so it would be too much to expect. Only refugees were given the right to stay in open un populated areas for free and the tents and food was provided by UNHCR, US aid etc. I mean come on its the least one can expect.

There might be some stories of mistreatment of Pakistanis at the hand of Afghan authorities but same is true for Afghans living in Pakistan such as police harassment. The police in our part of the world are really corrupt and these incidence are common even against the locals. I don't hold the behavior of corrupt officials against the people of Pakistan nor should you hold the mistreatment of Pakistanis against common Afghans.

[Firdousi]

Yes. The thing that really boils my blood is that we let Afghanis come into Pakistan, no questions asked, set up businesses, literally do as they please (try letting these Afghanis do that in a Western nation... you need to pass through a checklist before they even let you in... forget setting up businesses and coming and going as you please, they'd deport you using any excuse they find), and then when it comes time to reciprocate, it's met with violence.

There is ample news and stories of Pakistanis going to Afghanistan to work, and some POS just shot them dead. Or when they're visiting, they have to deal with extra BS/red tape. Nazia Iqbal apparently was stuck in the airport... because Afghanistan. There are reaction videos on YouTube to the killing of Pakistani laborers.

There are many good Afghans though, and we should work to build bridges instead of burning them. We'll always have enemies. That's just a fact.

Killing of innocent people is 100% regrettable. But we have some legit reasons to be mad at your country (we are guilty too).

I do agree with you that Afghans are extremely munafiq and ungrateful people. They are always complaining and moaning. Its just annoying.