Pashtun genetic deep ancestry

[Karachi]

Pashtuns and Kurds are not that close genetically, not sure how are you basing that from the charts you made

I have seen the HGDP Pakistani Pashtun samples from Harrapa Ancestry.ca and Pashtuns in general are closes their neighbours like Afghan Tajiks, Kalash, Nuristani, Pamiries etc... followed by Baloch, Sindhi, Kashmiries etc.... if you are looking at SNPs alone, of course you will similarities, not just with Kurds, but a lot of other people, however you have to look at the overall genetic makeup (autosomal dna)to get the clear cut results on ancestry

[Aryana]

I did not say it was 100% Pashto, but almost all Pashtun speakers that have listened to Sorani Kurdi have said that it is SOUNDS much more similar to Pashto than Farsi or other area languages.

Add to that pronouns such as la, pa, etc, and letters such as zh, dz, tz, and the the similarity becomes greater than with Farsi-Pashto.

Here is some similar Kurdi-Pashto words. I am sure I can find more if I spend the time. So the greater similarity Kurdi-Pashto vs Farsi-Pashto is what I am referring to.

Kurdish TV News reporter, anchor break down crying reporting ISIS genocide of the Yazidis - YouTube

You can definitely make out some Pashto-like words, and if the accent was changed it would sound a lot like Pashto. However, it just feels like Farsi and even some Turkish (accent, loan words etc).

[Dilawerkhan]

Pashtuns and Kurds are not that close genetically, not sure how are you basing that from the charts you made

[/SIZE]

You really should have read my opening post, where I describe all this in detail, before you post stuff like this, because if you had, your question would have been answered.

Just in case you don't know who I am, I am the one who created project Gedrosia DNA on Gedmatch. If you go there, you will see that I have created about half a dozen calculators, a couple of which are more accurate for inferring the "Balochi" component than Zack's single Harappa calculator. Not putting down Zack's calculator, but my newer calculators are based on recovered ancient genomes which were not available to Zack when he created Harappa.

Of course Harappa will show Pashtuns clustering close to Tajiks, but so will my Gedrosia series calculators. Are they wrong? Of course not, but as explained in my initial post, every calculator at Gedmatch is allele frequency based, meaning they are informative to mostly recent genetic drift , recent mutations, recent population mixing. By recent, I mean mostly within the last 800 years or so. The same applies to admixture based PCAs. So these calculators will cluster people based on them living side by side for the last 800 years or so.

For serious deep ancestry work, all Gedmatch calculators, including mine are useless.

If you have ever read the genetic papers, you will notice that all their serious analysis is done using formal statistical methods, such as Dstat, f3, qpAdm, etc. The reason for this is that one can gain information on total shared drifts and drift paths going back thousands of years to out-of-Africa.

So to get information on where Pashtun ancestors came from a very long time ago, one must use formal methods. So based on the dstats I posted it appears that Pashtun split from proto-kurds, probably a couple of 1000 years ago, and received additional Andronovo geneflow after the split.

Recently, within the past 1000 years they mixed with Tajik, Baloch etc, but Dstats show that Tajiks and Pashtuns were not close a couple of 1000 years ago. Pashtuns and Kurds were extremely close a couple of 1000 years ago, which is probably why Sorani Kurdi sounds more like Pashto than Farsi or other W Asian languages, and also uses zh, dz, tz, and has more similar words, pronouns, etc.

[Dilawerkhan]

Kurdish TV News reporter, anchor break down crying reporting ISIS genocide of the Yazidis - YouTube

You can definitely make out some Pashto-like words, and if the accent was changed it would sound a lot like Pashto. However, it just feels like Farsi and even some Turkish (accent, loan words etc).

It sounds more like Pashto than Farsi or other W Asian languages sound like Pashto, although to me it sounded like a mix or Sorani and Kurmanji Kurdi.

Here is a clip of Kurmanji Kurdi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G8aRaGJTAM

This one is Sorani Kurdi

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00ft4KWZyF4

[Sarbani]

You really should have read my opening post, where I describe all this in detail, before you post stuff like this, because if you had, your question would have been answered.

Just in case you don't know who I am, I am the one who created project Gedrosia DNA on Gedmatch. If you go there, you will see that I have created about half a dozen calculators, a couple of which are more accurate for inferring the "Balochi" component than Zack's single Harappa calculator. Not putting down Zack's calculator, but my newer calculators are based on recovered ancient genomes which were not available to Zack when he created Harappa.

Of course Harappa will show Pashtuns clustering close to Tajiks, but so will my Gedrosia series calculators. Are they wrong? Of course not, but as explained in my initial post, every calculator at Gedmatch is allele frequency based, meaning they are informative to mostly recent genetic drift , recent mutations, recent population mixing. By recent, I mean mostly within the last 800 years or so. The same applies to admixture based PCAs. So these calculators will cluster people based on them living side by side for the last 800 years or so.

For serious deep ancestry work, all Gedmatch calculators, including mine are useless.

If you have ever read the genetic papers, you will notice that all their serious analysis is done using formal statistical methods, such as Dstat, f3, qpAdm, etc. The reason for this is that one can gain information on total shared drifts and drift paths going back thousands of years to out-of-Africa.

So to get information on where Pashtun ancestors came from a very long time ago, one must use formal methods. So based on the dstats I posted it appears that Pashtun split from proto-kurds, probably a couple of 1000 years ago, and received additional Andronovo geneflow after the split.

Recently, within the past 1000 years they mixed with Tajik, Baloch etc, but Dstats show that Tajiks and Pashtuns were not close a couple of 1000 years ago. Pashtuns and Kurds were extremely close a couple of 1000 years ago, which is probably why Sorani Kurdi sounds more like Pashto than Farsi or other W Asian languages, and also uses zh, dz, tz, and has more similar words, pronouns, etc.

There's a theory that the Kurdish languages (as well as Zazaki-Gorani) are descended from Parthian (Pahlavi) dialects with a Median substrate. The other theory is that Kurdish languages are descended from Median dialects.

If the Parthian language theory is correct, then Kurds & Zazas could actually be of Parthian descent genetically (mixed with Medians). Since the Parthian homeland is Northeast Iran which borders Afghanistan, that could explain the relatively recent common ancestry between Pashtuns and Kurds (Parthians?).

Also, you say that Pashtuns and Tajiks weren't that close 1000 years ago. You might be referencing Tajikistanis as opposed to Afghan-Tajiks, which would make more sense.

Do you have any autosomal genetic information on people from Northeast Iran (North Khorasan, Razavi Khorasan, Golestan, Semnan)? I'm curious if they're genetically closer to East Iranics/Tajiks or to other West Iranics?

[Dilawerkhan]

There's a theory that the Kurdish languages (as well as Zazaki-Gorani) are descended from Parthian (Pahlavi) dialects with a Median substrate. The other theory is that Kurdish languages are descended from Median dialects.

If the Parthian language theory is correct, then Kurds & Zazas could actually be of Parthian descent genetically (mixed with Medians). Since the Parthian homeland is Northeast Iran which borders Afghanistan, that could explain the relatively recent common ancestry between Pashtuns and Kurds (Parthians?).

Also, you say that Pashtuns and Tajiks weren't that close 1000 years ago. You might be referencing Tajikistanis as opposed to Afghan-Tajiks, which would make more sense.



Do you have any autosomal genetic information on people from Northeast Iran (North Khorasan, Razavi Khorasan, Golestan, Semnan)? I'm curious if they're genetically closer to East Iranics/Tajiks or to other West Iranics?

The Tajik samples in the table are actually Afghan Tajiks samples. A couple of 1000 years ago.

The Parthian language theory is plausible.

About a year ago, I wrote to the medical department at the University in Mashad, since there are about 1.5 million Kurds in Khorasan http://cskk.org/
and the University in Zahedan since there are Kurds in Balochistan, but they told me that they had no samples

[Afghanfootball]

I dont know much about genetics but this reminded me of a Pashtun.
Kurdish MP: "When Kurds lived in Kurdistan, Turks were in Mongolia" ENGLISH - YouTube

[Anti-Kurd]

I have always been curious as to why the Sorani Kurdi language sounds the most similar to Pashto from the other languages in the area.

Kurdi, ya Kurdi, why you make so lie-i?

IMO, had Pashtuns not received significant geneflow from Andronovo types subsequent to their split from proto-Kurds, the tests would have shown them even closer to Kurd C3, as close to Kurd C3, as perhaps Brahui and Balochi are.

What in the good lord's name are "Proto-Kurds"? "Kurdish" is not a real language. Kurds are merely an amalgamation of NW Iranic tribes whose "dialects" (i.e. Gorani Vs. Kurmanji) are only partially mutually intelligible. So... What are Proto-Kurds here? You mean proto-NW Iranian speakers? How, pray tell, can you be sure about their genetic profile without ancient DNA?

Pashtuns in the past (> 500 years ago) appear to have been majority W Asian (Kurd type) plus NE European type. This is evident by the scores favoring Kurd and NE Europeans (Finnish, Russian, etc). IMO, ancestral Pashtuns split off from proto-Kurds, and subsequently received a good dose of Andronovo related steppe admixture, a couple of thousand years ago. Later, 0-1000 years ago, they received small doses of admixture component modal to S Indians via admixture with their neighbors. This is reflected in tests that convey information on recent drift, such as ADMIXTURE or 23andMe.

Ohhh, look at this guy, re-writing history and sh*t, Mashallah, Pasha. First off, I'm going to tell the truth to everyone in this thread for a change. "Kurds" are basically just Near-Eastern shifted Iranians (I'm speaking of their kinsmen from the Iranian plateau here) evident by how they very obviously get pulled toward Iraqi Jews and thus more in-land into West Asia than Iranians who pull more east in the direction of Pashtuns and company:

Kurds, lol.png - Google Drive

That, my dear, is a perfectly good and easy to comprehend PCA, observe it and cry knowing that your fantasies have been verbally raped into the sand. Those PCA positions, unlike your bullsh*t doctored stats, actually make sense with geography. Iranians (who are more geographically "eastern") are pulled more toward "Eastern" groups like Pashtuns than "Kurds" are while Kurds are pulled more toward non-Iranic West Asian groups because, well f*ck me silly, that's how things look geographically.

You see, my dear boy, that PCA makes sense, your fantasies don't. Another way we can tell that your work is nonsensical is that all prior analyses by other individuals (PCAs, ADMIX, formal stats) generally made Iranians and Kurds seem relatively VERY similar (not much of a difference, in my opinion) except for Kurds just being more "near-eastern shifted" as I mentioned so, right off the bat, your painting of Kurds as rather distinct from Iranians and a better proxy for Pashtuns than them is extremely suspect and should've given it away to anyone with an iota of knowledge on these subjects that they are dealing with a weird ethno-nationalist with a deceptive agenda.

[Anti-Kurd]

Sorry, but to me it sounds like Farsi

Indeed, it does... Don't let this deceptive Kurd tell you otherwise.

[Golden]

Very interesting thread, so kurds and pashtuns are genetically same? Would have never guessed it based on looks.