Persian From Paktia?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Just because they speak Farsi doesn't make Kabul a Tajik city, same way an Aborigine speaking English doesn't make him an Anglo-Saxon.

Thats a fair point. But the reality is, aborigines were conquered and lost their culture and identity. Pashtuns in Kabul arrived and assimilated.

There is no source to prove that the ghiljay tribes in Deh Sabz, Shakardarah, Paghman, Shewaki & Surubi lived there before 1800's All of them from tribes originating from Paktika, Khost and Paktia.

Only native Pashtun tribe in the area is the Safi tribe. They live in Safi mountains which is east of Kabul, not in Kabul

Old city of Kabul, the share kona, is an ancient Persian city.

Also, names of areas and places are all farsi names. Only Pashto name in Kabul city is Deh Afghanan. My great great grandfather moved from Khost to there and lived there with his family for a while and his tajik neighbors refered to his enclave as Deh Afghanan because thats what they use to call Pashtuns: Afghan. My ancestors were one of the first Pashtun settlers in Kabul. Before them, there were Durrani royals from Kandahar who all happened to speak Farsi, not Pashto.

[Firdousi]

You are entitled to believe in Pashtun nationalistfairy tales. But even today, most people in Kabul are Tajiks and even the Pashtuns prefer speaking Farsi in public. Only rural Pashtuns from the eastern and western districts speak Pashto.

Actually there is a widely used word among Persian Kabulis for Pashtuns: "naqaleen". No kidding.

[Firdousi]

Thats a fair point. But the reality is, aborigines were conquered and lost their culture and identity. Pashtuns in Kabul arrived and assimilated.

There is no source to prove that the ghiljay tribes in Deh Sabz, Shakardarah, Paghman, Shewaki & Surubi lived there before 1800's All of them from tribes originating from Paktika, Khost and Paktia.

Only native Pashtun tribe in the area is the Safi tribe. They live in Safi mountains which is east of Kabul, not in Kabul

Old city of Kabul, the share kona, is an ancient Persian city.

Also, names of areas and places are all farsi names. Only Pashto name in Kabul city is Deh Afghanan. My great great grandfather moved from Khost to there and lived there with his family for a while and his tajik neighbors refered to his enclave as Deh Afghanan because thats what they use to call Pashtuns: Afghan. My ancestors were one of the first Pashtun settlers in Kabul. Before them, there were Durrani royals from Kandahar who all happened to speak Farsi, not Pashto.

You speak Farsi or Pashto at home, dude?

BTW some places such as "Jade Maiwand" or "Wazir Akbar Khan" were called in Kabul after Pashtun people. But most of the places got pure Persian names. I was born in Kabul, in Shar-e Naw.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Babur, ruler of Kabul in early 16th century, use word "Sart" for the people of Kabul city and towns of Kabulistan , who were Persian speaking town dwellers. He also mentions 'Tajiks' separately as one of the many ethnic groups of Kabulistan province. So these town dwelling Farsi speaking "Sarts" were not categorized as Tajiks in 16th century. Babur also says that in the domain of Kabul lives Mohmand Afghans and Sultan-Masudi Hazaras.

What Babur classified as Sart doent exist as a seperate ethnicity to my knowledge. All Persian speaking people in Kabul, Shamali and Logar are called Tajik. They may have diffferent backgrounds but once people become Persianized in this area, they are no longer called anything else. They become Tajik by default.

Regarding Mohmand in Kabul, I have absolutely no idea when exactly and where they have settled there. You as a student of Pashto history should know that Mohmand are originally from another place. So even if we assume that there was a Mohmand settlement in Kabul at some point prior to the arrival of Ghiljay, it its not like they owned the entire town and it was their city.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

You speak Farsi or Pashto at home, dude?

BTW some places such as "Jade Maiwand" or "Wazir Akbar Khan" were called in Kabul after Pashtun people. But most of the places got pure Persian names. I was born in Kabul, in Shar-e Naw.

Both.

Those names were given to the city after the establishment of Durrani royal family and after Anglo-Afghan wars.

[Samandri]

What Babur classified as Sart doent exist as a seperate ethnicity to my knowledge. All Persian speaking people in Kabul, Shamali and Logar are called Tajik. They may have diffferent backgrounds but once people become Persianized in this area, they are no longer called anything else. They become Tajik by default.

Regarding Mohmand in Kabul, I have absolutely no idea when exactly and where they have settled there. You as a student of Pashto history should know that Mohmand are originally from another place. So even if we assume that there was a Mohmand settlement in Kabul at some point prior to the arrival of Ghiljay, it its not like they owned the entire town and it was their city.

"Sarts" i.e the city-dwellers are mentioned distinct from Tajiks, its obvious that the Farsi speaking city dwellers in those times were not yet classified as tajiks. Tajik is a vague term and its application to any Farsi speaker is relatively recent. Ain-i-Akbari which is gazetteer of Mughal empire, doesnt mention Tajiks any where while describing the Kabul city.

About the presence of Mohmand Afghans, it was in the outskirts and surroundings of Kabul city (they later moved to present day Mohmand agency and Nangarhar). In the times of Babur's uncle , Mirza Ulugh Beg, the countryside of Kabul was inhabited by Yousafzais, Gigyanis and Tarklanries, who had migrated from Southern Afghanistan). The point is, rural Kabul has undergone demographic changes at various points of history. Babur and Ain-i-Akbari states that Afghans live to the South and east of Kabul city, i.e portion of rural Kabul was Afghan 500 years ago. Mughals uprooted Afghan settlements in Kabul. If they had not, then Peshawar valley, Bajaur, Mohmand and Malakhand would not have been Pashtun regions at all.

[Firdousi]

Both.

Those names were given to the city after the establishment of Durrani royal family and after Anglo-Afghan wars.

I know. Actually when we say "Kabuli" we mean "Farsi with Kabuli accent". Never hear of Pashtun Kabuli accent.

Not too many Pashtuns from Kabul can speak Pashto. Actually very few of them. Kudos.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

I know. Actually when we say "Kabuli" we mean "Farsi with Kabuli accent". Never hear of Pashtun Kabuli accent.

Not too many Pashtuns from Kabul can speak Pashto. Actually very few of them. Kudos.

In Kabul city most Pashtuns may understand pashto but they can't speak it. In Paghman, Shakardara, Deh Sabz, Surubi and Shewaki, they speak pashto.

Besides, Karte Naw is virtually a Pashtun hub inside Kabul. Its predominantly Pashtun and most speak Pashto.

[Firdousi]

"Sarts" i.e the city-dwellers are mentioned distinct from Tajiks, its obvious that the Farsi speaking city dwellers in those times were not yet classified as tajiks. Tajik is a vague term and its application to any Farsi speaker is relatively recent. Ain-i-Akbari which is gazetteer of Mughal empire, doesnt mention Tajiks any where while describing the Kabul city.

About the presence of Mohmand Afghans, it was in the outskirts and surroundings of Kabul city (they later moved to present day Mohmand agency and Nangarhar). In the times of Babur's uncle , Mirza Ulugh Beg, the countryside of Kabul was inhabited by Yousafzais, Gigyanis and Tarklanries, who had migrated from Southern Afghanistan). The point is, rural Kabul has undergone demographic changes at various points of history. Babur and Ain-i-Akbari states that Afghans live to the South and east of Kabul city, i.e portion of rural Kabul was Afghan 500 years ago. Mughals uprooted Afghan settlements in Kabul. If they had not, then Peshawar valley, Bajaur, Mohmand and Malakhand would not have been Pashtun regions at all.

"In the country of Kābul there are many and various tribes. Its valleys and plains are inhabited by Tūrks, Aimāks, and Arabs. In the city and the greater part of the villages, the population consists of Tājiks (called "Sarts" by Babur). Many other of the villages and districts are occupied by Pashāis, Parāchis, Tājiks, Berekis, and Afghans. In the hill-country to the west, reside the Hazāras and Nukderis. Among the Hazāra and Nukderi tribes, there are some who speak the Moghul language. In the hill-country to the north-east lies Kaferistān, such as Kattor and Gebrek. To the south is Afghanistān... There are eleven or twelve different languages spoken in Kābul: Arabic, Persian, Tūrki, Moghuli, Hindi, Afghani, Pashāi, Parāchi, Geberi, Bereki, and Lamghāni..."

— Baburnama, 1525

So Persians have been the bulk of the population of the city while Pashtuns were immigrants living in the outskirts of the city.

I really love your pseudo history.

[Firdousi]

In Kabul city most Pashtuns may understand pashto but they can't speak it. In Paghman, Shakardara, Deh Sabz, Surubi and Shewaki, they speak pashto.

Besides, Karte Naw is virtually a Pashtun hub inside Kabul. Its predominantly Pashtun and most speak Pashto.

Yeap, thats true. I remember most of our neighbors were Pashtuns from eastern provinces: Khost, Paktia and Kunar. Most of them had migrated during Khalqi rule. Eastern provinces were a stronghold for Khalqis.

Surubi is mainly Pashtuns. Paghman is mixed. Most of people are Pashtuns though (Sayyaf is from there). Never been to Deh Sabz and Shakardara but those names are Persians so I guess Pashtuns moved there in the last decades.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

"Sarts" i.e the city-dwellers are mentioned distinct from Tajiks, its obvious that the Farsi speaking city dwellers in those times were not yet classified as tajiks. Tajik is a vague term and its application to any Farsi speaker is relatively recent. Ain-i-Akbari which is gazetteer of Mughal empire, doesnt mention Tajiks any where while describing the Kabul city.

About the presence of Mohmand Afghans, it was in the outskirts and surroundings of Kabul city (they later moved to present day Mohmand agency and Nangarhar). In the times of Babur's uncle , Mirza Ulugh Beg, the countryside of Kabul was inhabited by Yousafzais, Gigyanis and Tarklanries, who had migrated from Southern Afghanistan). The point is, rural Kabul has undergone demographic changes at various points of history. Babur and Ain-i-Akbari states that Afghans live to the South and east of Kabul city, i.e portion of rural Kabul was Afghan 500 years ago. Mughals uprooted Afghan settlements in Kabul. If they had not, then Peshawar valley, Bajaur, Mohmand and Malakhand would not have been Pashtun regions at all.

I didn't know that.

[Samandri]

Firdousi Kuni, copy pasting from wikipedia wont help you. In original manuscript of Baburnama, its "Sart".....Babur Nama: Journal of Emperor Babur - Dilip Hiro - Google Books

There is debate about Sarts in academic circles, whether they were distinct people or Tajiks.

Not only your legs are short but your brain is also small. Kabul was not merely the name of city under Mughals but the name also referred to a "sarkar" and "subah", the latter also included present day KPK. Babur is talking about entire North-eastern Afghanistan, not just Kabul city.

[Firdousi]

Firdousi Kuni, copy pasting from wikipedia wont help you. In original manuscript of Baburnama, its "Sart".....Babur Nama: Journal of Emperor Babur - Dilip Hiro - Google Books

There is debate about Sarts in academic circles, whether they were distinct people or Tajiks.

Not only your legs are short but your brain is also small. Kabul was not merely the name of city under Mughals but the name also referred to a "sarkar" and "subah", the latter also included present day KPK.

Tribal ghool, mind your language. You are talking to a civilized human being.

Sart and Tajik are two words for the same people. Turks called to the Aryan Tribes from Khorasan "Tajik". Moguls called them Sart. There is no debate.

More pseudo history in order to bring down the noble Persian nation lol

[Samandri]

Tribal ghool, mind your language. You are talking to a civilized human being.

Sart and Tajik are two words for the same people. Turks called to the Aryan Tribes from Khorasan "Tajik". Moguls called them Sart. There is no debate.

More pseudo history in order to bring down the noble Persian nation lol

I am talking to a subjugate, an effeminate boy with short legs and small brain with flat skull.

[Firdousi]

I am talking to a subjugate, an effeminate boy with short legs and small brain with flat skull.

Even effeminate boys with short legs are above Pashtuns. Please, mind your language tribal thug.