New Mahmud of Ghazni and Pashtuns thread. Academically Relevant Comments ONLY

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Ben-Gay, tell us more about your theory about how Rajput Hindu Cow Worshippers Talukdars were somehow magically Pashtuns?

[Samandri]

Actually History of Pashtuns says it's inconclusive what her ethnicity was.

But even if hypothetically she was Pashtun, it wouldn't count by Pashtun standards of Lineage since Pashtun identity is Patrilineal.

Yep . He is saying "football wins", he thinks he is in some kind of tournament.Its best to be content with just the fact that She was a daughter of a chief of Zabulistan. Her ethnicity was never mentioned and calling her a Pashtun or Persian would be nothing more than speculation.

[Afghanfootball]

Yep . He is saying "football wins", he thinks he is in some kind of tournament.Its best to be content with just the fact that She was a daughter of a chief of Zabulistan. Her ethnicity was never mentioned and calling her a Pashtun or Persian would be nothing more than speculation.

Hmmm, let's see Zabul is in the Sulaiman mounts, that area is historically Pashtun, and her father was a chief. Chieftain are the head of clans or tribes, Persians had to no tribes, while Pashtuns do live in a tribal society. But guess who lives in a tribal society and has tribes and clans that's right Pashtuns.

[Samandri]

Smarty I gotta say I was wrong when I said you only use brits who ruled over you as sources. These are some great sources that you have used. Where have you bought them.

You need to pay more attention to the references i use. The primary sources of our medieval history, are not from Britain. You are blindly following your mentor [MENTION=5723]Kushan Prince[/MENTION]'s assertions , that "hey this one is using work of his British masters only". The thing is British authors and administrators have done valuable field work and their statistical and settlement reports are used as references in research, you cant ignore them out of bias. About your point of Sir Olaf careo, i have seen your Abdul Hai Habibi using him as reference in one of his article. These various books and research papers on Pashtuns by authors of various nationalities including Indians and British, are not words of Quran. The mistakes in their works which are corrected or rejected by other authors. Read many books, grow your knowledge un till you are able to recognize the mistakes in these writings.....Dont be stuck in Abdul Hai Habibi's book

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Hmmm, let's see Zabul is in the Sulaiman mounts, that area is historically Pashtun, and her father was a chief. Chieftain are the head of clans or tribes, Persians had to no tribes, while Pashtuns do live in a tribal society. But guess who lives in a tribal society and has tribes and clans that's right Pashtuns.

But Pashtuns also migrated since Pashtuns were originally nomadic; As we see in Kandahar, also in the Suleiman Mountains, Dravidian-speakers are also said to have lived in the region. Brahuis for example also have tribes

This is why [MENTION=18842]History of Pashtuns[/MENTION] doesn't jump to conclusions to say they were Pashtuns.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Yep . He is saying "football wins", he thinks he is in some kind of tournament.Its best to be content with just the fact that She was a daughter of a chief of Zabulistan. Her ethnicity was never mentioned and calling her a Pashtun or Persian would be nothing more than speculation.

ooooh Smarty; just smashed NO-Balls to little pieces of broken self esteem.

[Afghanfootball]

Still quoting me hmmmmm

[Brown Skinned Savage]

No-Balls remarks hint that he may in fact not be from the region/Afghanistan at all; but like Ben-Gay with His Dravidian Hindu ancestry, suffers an inferiority complex; and wants desperately to attach himself to Pashtuns because he maybe from some race/culture that was dominated by foreign invaders very often.

But [MENTION=18842]History of Pashtuns[/MENTION]

check this out.

https://books.google.com/books?id=883OZBe2sMYC&pg=PA379&dq=zabulistan&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAmoVChMIupLj4eaIyAIVCXU-Ch0seAbY#v=onepage&q&f=false

Zabulistan was named after Zibil; Nephew of Tegin Shah; who was Tegin Shah?

http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects/khm/showcases/showcase14?language=en

"Khorasan Tegin Shah" (= Tegin, King of the East), known in Chinese sources as Wusan teqin sa, was the second Turk Shahi on the throne of Kabul (showcases 12, 13), succeeding his father Barha Tegin around or after 680 CE. The title "King of the East" may well be understood as a challenge aimed directly at the Umayyad caliph. The actual dominion stretched from Kabulistan to Gandhara and at times also included Zabulistan. Bactria, the land just north of the Hindu Kush, did not belong to his immediate sphere of rule.

Following "Khorasan Tegin Shah"'s ascension to power, a conflict within the royal family must have broken out that caused the older brother of the Kabul Shah to move to Zabulistan and establish his independence there. From then on, Arab sources refer to the ruler of Zabulistan as Rutbil (Turkic iltäbär). Faced with the threat of the Arabs, the two ruling houses remained in close contact and fought side by side against the Muslim enemy. The first Rutbil of Zabulistan fell already by 683 or 686/87 CE in a battle against the Arabs, after having been previously allied with them. Around 710 CE it appears that the Kabul Shah temporarily gained suzerainty over Zabulistan, and troops were recruited in Zabulistan for the mutual struggle against the Arabs.

I think I solved the Mystery of which Ethnicity the Mother of Mahmud Ghaznawi is.

Checkmate NoBalls

[Brown Skinned Savage]

[Samandri]

No-Balls remarks hint that he may in fact not be from the region/Afghanistan at all; but like Ben-Gay with His Dravidian Hindu ancestry, suffers an inferiority complex; and wants desperately to attach himself to Pashtuns because he maybe from some race/culture that was dominated by foreign invaders very often.

But @History of Pashtuns

check this out.


https://books.google.com/books?id=88...page&q&f=false


Zabulistan was named after Zibil; Nephew of Tegin Shah; who was Tegin Shah?

http://pro.geo.univie.ac.at/projects...14?language=en




I think I solved the Mystery of which Ethnicity the Mother of Mahmud Ghaznawi is.

Checkmate NoBalls

Interesting find. I am not acquainted with this era of history, what does historians say about the origin of Alaptigin? he is described as central Asian Turk, ghulam of Samanids and governor of Khorasan. Tegin or Tigin is a Turkish title conferred on princes of reigning houses. It seems to me tegin was a general title like 'Khan' or 'Malik' is. We both see both Alaptagin and Subuktagin using it even though the two were not related.

https://books.google.com.pk/books?id...20title&f=true

Rule of Buddhist Turk Shahis in kabulistan ended in 845 AD when Hindu Shahis seized power from them, while in Zabulistan it ended in 870 AD when Saffarid ruler Yaqub from Seistan conquered Kabul and Zabul. Saffarids were succeeded by Samanids. In 962 Alptagin established independent rule in Ghazni. So our Zabuli nobleman could be even Persian of Samanid or Saffariud dynasty.

The presence of Afghans in the foots of Ghazni hills in the times of Masud Ghaznavi (1030-40) is at least confirmed. In Muntakhibu Tawarikh page-44 it is written,

"....he (Sultan) sent Amir of that district (Multan) to the foot of the hills of Ghaznin to restrain the Afghans of that district who had broken out into rebellion..."

I dont know the geography of Ghazni, as where are the hills and where is foothills in that province. But it is evident that there was presence of Afghans in these tracts.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Interesting find. I am not acquainted with this era of history, what does historians say about the origin of Alaptigin? he is described as central Asian Turk, ghulam of Samanids and governor of Khorasan. Tegin or Tigin is a Turkish title conferred on princes of reigning houses. It seems to me tegin was a general title like 'Khan' or 'Malik' is. We both see both Alaptagin and Subuktagin using it even though the two were not related.

https://books.google.com.pk/books?id...20title&f=true

Rule of Buddhist Turk Shahis in kabulistan ended in 845 AD when Hindu Shahis seized power from them, while in Zabulistan it ended in 870 AD when Saffarid ruler Yaqub from Seistan conquered Kabul and Zabul. Saffarids were succeeded by Samanids. In 962 Alptagin established independent rule in Ghazni. So our Zabuli nobleman could be even Persian of Samanid or Saffariud dynasty.

The presence of Afghans in the foots of Ghazni hills in the times of Masud Ghaznavi (1030-40) is at least confirmed. In Muntakhibu Tawarikh page-44 it is written,

"....he (Sultan) sent Amir of that district (Multan) to the foot of the hills of Ghaznin to restrain the Afghans of that district who had broken out into rebellion..."

I dont know the geography of Ghazni, as where are the hills and where is foothills in that province. But it is evident that there was presence of Afghans in these tracts.

Well here's another way to look at it too; Clearly Turk Shahi remnants would have been in Ghazni and Zabul even if they had lost power, they may have still seen themselves as the rightful rulers of Zabulistan and still retained their "Nobility"

But I think you have a great point; with the changing power dynamic, Nobility could have also rested with a Samanid or Saffarid Nobility since they had defacto power in the region. The idea that it was a "Chieftan" would not rule out that she was of Persian Samanid/Tajik extraction or Saffarid Persian extraction. Both identify as Persian if I am not mistaken?

the Ghorid Shansabani family are sometimes referred to have "Chieftans" and were Nobility from the Sassanid dynasty. do you have any references where the Afghans were not conferred with the esteem of Nobility in the Ghaznawid times?

[Samandri]

Well here's another way to look at it too; Clearly Turk Shahi remnants would have been in Ghazni and Zabul even if they had lost power, they may have still seen themselves as the rightful rulers of Zabulistan and still retained their "Nobility"

But I think you have a great point; with the changing power dynamic, Nobility could have also rested with a Samanid or Saffarid Nobility since they had defacto power in the region. The idea that it was a "Chieftan" would not rule out that she was of Persian Samanid/Tajik extraction or Saffarid Persian extraction. Both identify as Persian if I am not mistaken?

the Ghorid Shansabani family are sometimes referred to have "Chieftans" and were Nobility from the Sassanid dynasty. do you have any references where the Afghans were not conferred with the esteem of Nobility in the Ghaznawid times?

Yea both were Persians. About Shanshabanis, it is said that they were one of the many petty chieftains of Ghur who ultimately attained supremacy over all of them.

Afghans and nobility. They attained the prestige of nobility for the first time under Khilji Sultans (if Khaljis are to be considered non-Pashtuns) , Malik Ikhtiyar-ud-din Yal Afghan was an important noble of Alaudin Khilji.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

The I think we solved the mystery or in the very least given that the Zabulistanis that Are being referred to were not Pashtuns.

Also another thing we should note is that Afghans were known by Name of their ethnonym, NOT by their Geographic location. If the woman was Pashtun she'd have been called Afghan Nobility not Zabulistani.

[Afghanfootball]

Ah iv been busy but this BSS is obviously knows nothing about this Era in Afghan history. Kabul Shahi and Zunbil/Ratbil/Zabul Shahi are descendents of Hephthalite they are not Turks. However they were Turkized just as they were influenced by Indians (most likely Kashmiris) which led them to have names like Andapala and Jayapala. Even in the 6th or 7th century a Chinese traveler called them Kshatirya which I'm sure BSS knows nothing about.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

In other words they were not Pashtuns.

The Turks of Turkey are also Turkized so your point is irrelevant.