The nuristan thread

[Tjanaparh]

Very intresting link der Midnight sun, thank You

[Midnight_Sun]

Although some traditions of the Afghâns trace their roots to King Saul of ancient Israel, the clearly Eastern Irânian pedigree of their language belies the Islâmic propaganda behind this origin myth. The Afghâns were probably Saka ("Scythian") tribes that migrated south from Bactria over the major mountain ranges, occupying the lands from Fârâh east to the Sulaimân Mountains by at least the 10th century A.D. Some centuries earlier they apparently amalgamated in the east with Turkish descendents of the Hephthalites (5th century A.D.), who later adopted Pashto and were grafted on to the Afghân tribal descent charter as the ǧalǰi ("Ghilzai") branch (Caroe 1965).
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I thought the Ghilzai's being turks theory was scrapped. We discussed this already in another thread.

Read carefully what he wrote: "The Turkish descendants of the Hephthalites." Hephthalites themselves being an Indo-Iranian nomadic group, became Hunified, Turkified, and then amalgamated with the Pashtuns.

[torkham]

No Nuristani page can be legitimate without a mention of Richard F. Strand's page dedicated to the Nuristanis, their language, and their history within Afghanistan:

CLICK HERE AND ENJOY: Richard Strand's Nuristân Site

You are totally right, strand is legendary. i mentioned this guy at various times when nuristanis have been mentioned here, but this guy is elusive. Last i heard he was was helping the americans encroaching kamdesh and koringal on nuristani culture.

Another giant is the late norwegian morgensteirne whose work is equally comprehensive with audio and movie clips going back to mid20 century. I got hold of his son a year ago who is continuing the maontenance of his grandfathers ethnographic research.

Yet another amateur researcher/plunderer is the despicable so so hajji sam sloan, the chess player from new york who claims having spent time in nuristan, marrying a chitrali girl from pakistan, and in the process writing a vocab list that includes one nuristani dialect, kalash, kho, pashto and urdu. The nuristani is almost accurate kamviri dialect.

[TolloAfghanSpinDai]

Any Nuristani mythology?

[torkham]

Any Nuristani mythology?

One myth i know from my family is that dunya is supported on the horns of a giant sandha. When the sanda is tired it bounces the dunya onto other when tired. This concept is probably derivative or proto-indic ideas, but that is the nature of many myths or stories.
Another one is that the original home of the nuristanis is tsyam. No one knows where it is. The modern nuristanis claim that their ancestral home was kandahar and they migrated to valleys of NE afghanistan.
There is another myth of a spirit called balayman that flies into nuristan in winters, cant remember the details.
Most of these myths have been normalised with muslim afghanistan over the last hundren so years, because clearly there are elements in the myths that are patently unislamic. Like wooden and stone shrines that still exist where some people used go to offer prayers/food for wishes. These shrines are there but people are becoming aware of their pagan past. Now, nuristanis are strong muslims, these myths are now part of traditiona and not a belief and anything that comproises islamic values.

I will ask around from family and get back on other myths.

[Tjanaparh]

Dear Torkham, seems similar to the stories of Kalash in Chitral

[torkham]

Dear Torkham, seems similar to the stories of Kalash in Chitral

Kalash culture has preserved tradition and myths better than former nuristanis have, though kalash are suffering through insidious modernity. Also kalash area and current nuristan and parts of kunarr was a continuous habitation of kafirs over 3 centuries ago and i suspect there may have existed a range of traditions with similarities. As for links, it is tenuous but in nuristan, especially in southern kamdesh, there was a dialect called kalashawa which has similarities with kalash linkgo in pk, secondly, the researchers also assert that kalasha from af nuristan spread eastwards as well as other way round as a possibility(strand, morgenstierne).

BTW kamdesh is a district and major town of nurestan, where as Kom/kam are a unified people, like a tribe, and my point is that suffix 'desh' which is hindi for what we call watan or hewad, innit? That is one piece of the kafir jigsaw that may be a pivotal indicator of their indo-aryan linguistic or even proto-sanskrit heritage. I have heard of the kambuja horseman theory too, but the horses are missing, instead plenty of goats!

[Tjanaparh]

Well, according to my Kalash friends in earlier times they had close contact with the Nuristanis and after the intervention of Abdurrahman some 2 or 4 families setteled with the Kalash people, but later converted to Islam.
As I understood traditions were similar, I read also different things on internet(as unfortunately not much is available to me about Nuristan).
I think in the memories of Babur he also has written about Nuristanis, I remember such a thing, I read it some years ago, but have to refresh this knowledge.
I got quiet intrested in Nuristani culture after i met these Kalash friends, because as they preserved parts of ancient believes it would be intresting to confront them with our beliefs, there should be common things if as supposed we all derive from one culture.

[TolloAfghanSpinDai]

The spread of the Pashto language and culture toward the northeast resulted as much from the adoption of Pashto by peoples who formerly spoke other languages as from the invasions of Pashto-speaking Afghâns. Pashto continues to displace Indo-Âryan and Nuristâni speech in the bottom lands of the Laghmân, Kâbul, and Indus Basins. The displacement process derives largely from marriage alliances that indigenous men form with Pashto speakers. A native man's Pashto-speaking wife rarely learns his language, largely because of the general chauvinistic attitude of Pashto speakers, and his children grow up speaking Pashto as their primary ("mother") language.
/I]

Source: Richard Strand's Nuristân Site: Iranian-Speaking Peoples of the Hindu Kush

displacing Indo-Aryan meaning as in Punjabi and Urdu languages or Dardic languages which are sometimes classed as Indo-Aryan but people consider Dardic as distinct from Punjabi-Urdu speakers. I mean, everyone who knows Urdu can partially understand Indo-Aryan languages like Punjabi, but when slam in Dardic, ofcourse no urdu zabuun would understand.

If Indo-Aryan keeps getting displaced, Pakistani Punjabis and Mohajirs can no longer force it's Urdu/Punjabi on Pashunkhwa.

[یاسمینه]

Something about Nuristan and Nuristani languages. Excerpt from the book:
Pstrusinska J., Old Celtic Cultures from the Hindukush Perspective, Universitas, Krakow 1999.

(bibliography will be added soon)

[EvilPakistani]

Some Dardic nationalists, want to create a state for Dardic people, that includes the lands of Nuristan,Chitral,Kalash,Gilgit-Baltistan and Jammu&Kashmir, it has no grass root support tho, so it's a dead movement, because most of us Dards are too different from each other.

[Karachi]

Some Dardic nationalists, want to create a state for Dardic people, that includes the lands of Nuristan,Chitral,Kalash,Gilgit-Baltistan and Jammu&Kashmir, it has no grass root support tho, so it's a dead movement, because most of us Dards are too different from each other.

Dardistan could easily be a separate state to be honest, the culturals up there are completely different from south asian cultures to the south. In fact it would have been better because if Dardistan was independent , there would be no kashmir issue between pakistan and india

[EvilPakistani]

Dardistan could easily be a separate state to be honest, the culturals up there are completely different from south asian cultures to the south. In fact it would have been better because if Dardistan was independent , there would be no kashmir issue between pakistan and india

I know but not all Dards are the same, for example us Kashmiris have nothing in common with Nuristanis, and they have nothing in common with Gilgitis and the Baltis are also too different, and Chitralis are distinct from Baltis and the Kalasha are the most different, and plus it would be a landlocked state like Afghanistan or Nepal, so it's a bad idea, and this coming from somebody with Dardic ancestry.

[pashtanajan]

I have a lot of Nuristani members in my family. Many of the older ones speak their language but the younger generation speaks Pashto. My great-grandmother is Nuristani so I have a lot of uncles/aunts and cousins that are Nuristani and they still speak a dialect of Nuristani, although they're fluent in Pashto as well.

Anyway, I really like Nuristani music! They play the flute really well. I've also been to Nuristan. It's beautiful! I know a lot of Nuristani myths and oral literature, as they've been passed down to me through my mother's side.

[pashtanajan]

One myth i know from my family is that dunya is supported on the horns of a giant sandha. When the sanda is tired it bounces the dunya onto other when tired. This concept is probably derivative or proto-indic ideas, but that is the nature of many myths or stories.
Another one is that the original home of the nuristanis is tsyam. No one knows where it is. The modern nuristanis claim that their ancestral home was kandahar and they migrated to valleys of NE afghanistan.
There is another myth of a spirit called balayman that flies into nuristan in winters, cant remember the details.
Most of these myths have been normalised with muslim afghanistan over the last hundren so years, because clearly there are elements in the myths that are patently unislamic. Like wooden and stone shrines that still exist where some people used go to offer prayers/food for wishes. These shrines are there but people are becoming aware of their pagan past. Now, nuristanis are strong muslims, these myths are now part of traditiona and not a belief and anything that comproises islamic values.

I will ask around from family and get back on other myths.

I know the first myth! I've been told it as well! My great-grandmother said the world was held by the horns of two bulls and when they would fight earthquakes would occur.