An Arab wanting to learn more about Pashtun History

[al-arab]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم
As-Salamu Alaykum

I would first apoligize for my English. I am only 20 years old and I have never lived in a Western country although I have visited several and have family there. So if someone do not understand what I write, I apoligize in advance. My wife is teaching it to me, my time in University also helps.

As an Iraqi Sunni Arab from the Al-Hussaini tribe and Saudi (Al-Hashimi) I am curious to know more about the region than I know now.

I would like to know more about the Pashtun history (and the regions history) before the establishment of Pakistan and India. I know very well about the dificult relations with Pakistan as a state comrpromies by Punjabi, Pashtun, Sindh and Baloch people, that the state Pakistan do not permit af united Pashtun countrie, ISI involvement etc. But I would like to know more about the era before all that.

What were the relationship with Muslism regardless nationality? What were the relations to Muhajir people? Why muslims of different faith can not unity in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. I know British Imperialism has caused a lot of problems but is there more?

I apoligize for being ignorant on this matter although I have read about the theme before but I would just like to hear your opinion on all this. I know there will be diffrent opinions if people will answer this (which I hope) but this only good.

I would also appreciate literature about this subject but if possible as objective as it can get.

And please, don't insult other people's even though it can be hard because of policy etc. But you can write your opinion without racist comments. I only say this because there are a few user's here only (Insha'Allah) who are very racist towards Arabs in every topic. Racism is Haraam so I would only like to warn you.

Thank you very much in advance.

[یاسمینه]

You can't learn/ understand history of Afghanistan without knowledge of culture, traditions, geography, Sufism... Long way ahead of you.

[یاسمینه]

I would start from online site: www.iranica.com type Afghanistan and you will have lots of links. Plus, you will find there bibliography on given subject.
I would also recommend 2 books: L. Dupree "Afghanistan" and O.Caroe "Pathans"

[graveyardofempires]

You can't learn/ understand history of Afghanistan without knowledge of culture, traditions, geography, Sufism... Long way ahead of you.

i dont get the sufism part,
most pasthuns reject sufism and the ones who tak epart in that practice are way different than what you would perceive as sufis.

overwehlming majority of pashtuns are Hanafi with a number of shias and hindus.

[badmash_khel]

walaikum as salam al-arab bro

ok I will give you a short introduction into pashtun history but if you are not satisfied you can ask question and maybe i will give you links to websites where you can read more.

First of all pashtuns are an Iranic people (not same as modern day Iranians but related) who speak pashto (a north eastern iranian language). Pashtuns are identified by the use of pashto language and following pashtunwali (way of the pashtuns). Pashtuns are a patrichal society so in order to be pashtun you have to have a pashtun dad and be able to speak pashto. Although in modern times as more and more pashtuns become urbanized they are foregetting about pashtunwali (way of pashtuns) because of coming into contact with other groups and also because pashtunwali is more suited to tribal society where institutions are lacking.

The original homeland of pashtuns is claimed to be modern day ukraine/south Russia close to Black Sea. Their migration to their modern homeland is associated with spread of indo european language. Currently pashtuns live between hindukush mountains and indus river.

Before becoming muslims pashtuns most likely were buddhist, hindus, zoroastrians and other pagan religions. According to greek geographer Strabo, the lands east of the Indus river were known as "Ariana", land of Aryans. Aryans means "noble ". There are some oral traditions among pashtun which claim that pashtun belong to "bani isreal" but these theories have no basis because there are no outside sources which confirm this connection. Neither is there any records that pashtun practiced judaism before islam. its most likely that after becoming muslims pashtuns adopted the semitic names for example a tribe called "esapzai" beame "yousufzai" (sons of yousuf). even though original pashto doesn't have the word "F" like other iranian languages. Most likely pashtuns chose to associate themsevles with isrealites because of the prestige assocaited with them in the new faith called "islam".

Modern day pashtuns are mostly sunni muslims beloning to Hanafi madhab but there are some shias among them mainly twelvers and some qizilbash shias who have become pashtuns.

ask questions if you want to know more

[badmash_khel]

I would start from online site: www.iranica.com type Afghanistan and you will have lots of links. Plus, you will find there bibliography on given subject.
I would also recommend 2 books: L. Dupree "Afghanistan" and O.Caroe "Pathans"

Encyclopedia Iranica is a good source but sometimes they are a little too pro "persian". I would use it with caution.

[graveyardofempires]

I can learn all this without knowing Pashtun. To say otherwise is very strange.
Without knowing PAshtuns your chances are close to zero as our history is passed on and much of it is not written.
so knowing from non pashtun external sources will only have you faced with biased,politicised and inaccurate versions of his-story.

Sufism originates in the Middle East so yes, I now a lot about it.
Irrelevant
Geography I also know about. Maps before the Mughal Empire and way before.
Pashtun history starts much before much before.
The Mughuls were the enemies of Pashtuns and Pashtuns anihilated their army.

I also have knowledge about culture and traditions but I am not asking for that but what I wrote in my thread.

Pashtun history can be seen through our culture and our code of honour and than you may see why Pashtuns would resist.

i would also recommend you some Islamic sources.

[graveyardofempires]

I would start from online site: www.iranica.com type Afghanistan and you will have lots of links. Plus, you will find there bibliography on given subject.
I would also recommend 2 books: L. Dupree "Afghanistan" and O.Caroe "Pathans"

those are external sources and mostly compiled by the sworn enemies of pashtuns.

[graveyardofempires]

walaikum as salam al-arab bro

ok I will give you a short introduction into pashtun history but if you are not satisfied you can ask question and maybe i will give you links to websites where you can read more.

First of all pashtuns are an Iranic people (not same as modern day Iranians but related) who speak pashto (a north eastern iranian language). Pashtuns are identified by the use of pashto language and following pashtunwali (way of the pashtuns). Pashtuns are a patrichal society so in order to be pashtun you have to have a pashtun dad and be able to speak pashto. Although in modern times as more and more pashtuns become urbanized they are foregetting about pashtunwali (way of pashtuns) because of coming into contact with other groups and also because pashtunwali is more suited to tribal society where institutions are lacking.

The original homeland of pashtuns is claimed to be modern day ukraine/south Russia close to Black Sea. Their migration to their modern homeland is associated with spread of indo european language. Currently pashtuns live between hindukush mountains and indus river.

Before becoming muslims pashtuns most likely were buddhist, hindus, zoroastrians and other pagan religions. According to greek geographer Strabo, the lands east of the Indus river were known as "Ariana", land of Aryans. Aryans means "noble ". There are some oral traditions among pashtun which claim that pashtun belong to "bani isreal" but these theories have no basis because there are no outside sources which confirm this connection. Neither is there any records that pashtun practiced judaism before islam. its most likely that after becoming muslims pashtuns adopted the semitic names for example a tribe called "esapzai" beame "yousufzai" (sons of yousuf). even though original pashto doesn't have the word "F" like other iranian languages. Most likely pashtuns chose to associate themsevles with isrealites because of the prestige assocaited with them in the new faith called "islam".

Modern day pashtuns are mostly sunni muslims beloning to Hanafi madhab but there are some shias among them mainly twelvers and some qizilbash shias who have become pashtuns.

ask questions if you want to know more

Wrong
totally wrong
outrageous
blatant lie

now pleace coome forward for why you make those accusations?

[badmash_khel]

Wrong
totally wrong
outrageous
blatant lie

now pleace coome forward for why you make those accusations?

give you reasons and back them up with academic sources if you cliam what i said is wrong otherwise there is no point.

Do you deny pashtuns are an Iranic poeple like tajiks, pamiris and other groups? if so then what is the alternative theory and why you reject this?

Do you deny pashto is an eastern iranic language? why and what are your sources?

I am not saying this is a perfect description of pashtuns but at least I can back up my points with some sources.

ok you give a history of pashtuns and we will go from there.

keep in mind iranic and iranian don't mean iranian in modern sense.

[graveyardofempires]

give you reasons and back them up with academic sources if you cliam what i said is wrong otherwise there is no point.

Do you deny pashtuns are an Iranic poeple like tajiks, pamiris and other groups? if so then what is the alternative theory and why you reject this?
deny means that it is truth and i dont support it,i call it a historical lie.
because we have not much in common culture language or facial features wise.I firmly believe int he Bani israel theory cuz almost all the things,from facial features,culture and names of tribes which you say our elders lie about to fit in with new found religion.
its more likely they took over the arabic versions of those names.
there is mcuh more.

Do you deny pashto is an eastern iranic language? why and what are your sources?
Pashto is not eastern iranic or iranian language.

Pashto and pashtuns should not be pushed into the iranian stock.
those times of empirial perisa are gone,just liek in todays world in those times much was fabricated.


I am not saying this is a perfect description of pashtuns but at least I can back up my points with some sources.

your sources please,
ok you give a history of pashtuns and we will go from there.
I have guests right now but in about 3 hours i,ll be back with my "alternative" view
keep in mind iranic and iranian don't mean iranian in modern sense.

i know they might not necessarily but they do in a sense.

[badmash_khel]

Thank you very much brother, but unfortunately for your time I knew all this apart from the thing involving Pashtun language (not having the word f).

But the theory of a homeland in Soutwestern Poland/Ukraine/Southern Russia is that not the theory of Slavic Peoples (Indo-European people as well)? I always thought that the area in modern day Pontic Steppe and northern Iran were the homeland of Indo-European people (people with the R1a (main Pashtun DNA) and R1b Y-DNA. This would also makes sense because the highest percentage of R1a Y-DNA can be found among Slavic peoples (Polish, Ukrainians, Russians etc.) and Pahstuns, Tajiks and other Peoples in Northern South West Asia. (most of India and Pakistan peoples).


I apoligize for being ignorant on this matter although I have read about the theme before but I would just like to hear your opinion on all this. I know there will be diffrent opinions if people will answer this (which I hope) but this only good.

I would also appreciate literature about this subject but if possible as objective as it can get."

I also want to make clear that I do not perform any Sufism, but I know is. Let me also say that I know about Afghanistan under the Pashtun rulers and also about most of their history, ancestry (DNA), language (Indo-European), tribes, Pashtunwali etc.

But yet again thank you for your answers they are appreciated by me.

Also another question.

How close is Arabic to Pashtun language? If I understand quite a lot of Urdu/farsi would I then be able to understand Pashtun? Or is it not possible.

Sorry for ignorance.

no need to apologize.

I am mainly using the spread of indo european language as a guide to where pashtuns originally came from. Since all indo european languages have a common ancestor it makes sense to know where they spread from



This make shows the spead of indo european languages.

I am not too sure about genetics, since no extensive study have been done but according to avaiable data, majority pashtuns do belong to R1a group.

But brother, what I was specially interested in was this.

"I would like to know more about the Pashtun history (and the regions history) before the establishment of Pakistan and India. I know very well about the dificult relations with Pakistan as a state comrpromies by Punjabi, Pashtun, Sindh and Baloch people, that the state Pakistan do not permit af united Pashtun countrie, ISI involvement etc. But I would like to know more about the era before all that.

What were the relationship with Muslism regardless nationality? What were the relations to Muhajir people? Why muslims of different faith can not unity in Afghanistan, Pakistan and India. I know British Imperialism has caused a lot of problems but is there more?

Well before the creation of India and pakistan, the pashtun areas which are now part of pakistan used to be part of the Sikh empire which the British subsequently absorbed into their empire. This doesn't mean that pashtuns who live in modern day pakistan were subjugated. That's far from the truth infact nobody could really control the pashtun tribal areas because of the independent nature of the tribes. Only some uraban centres such as peshawar and mardan were brought under british control and some institutions were builit.
The pashtun areas of Afghanistan were controlled by various clans of Durrani pashtun tribes.

Majority of Afghans are muslims so i don't know what you mean why afghans of different faith can't find unity. In Afghanistan its not easy to have central authority because of the terrain and geography. Most areas are autonomous regions controlled by local tribes and elders. Pashtuns had very good relations with other ethnicities, pashtuns try to preserve their identity and are not agressive people. We didn't inforce our ideology on anyone. Tajiks had their own local independent leaders and other ethnicities as well.

The modern day conflicts are exagerated and has mainly to do with 30 years of continous wars. There is no historical annimosity between different ethnic groups in general. There is some rivalry among different ethnic groups but that rivalry also exists among pashtun tribes themselves like Durrani vs Ghiljai but its not as simple as that.

[یاسمینه]

i dont get the sufism part,
most pasthuns reject sufism and the ones who tak epart in that practice are way different than what you would perceive as sufis.

overwehlming majority of pashtuns are Hanafi with a number of shias and hindus.

Why? Because Pashtuns have been main rulers in Afghanistan, where Sufism is important, because of Mojaddedi family... I know that Sufi pirs play important role in informal powe system. In fact I see many links. And I try to see history not as a list of separate "events" but as a chain of events in the wider context.

[badmash_khel]

i know they might not necessarily but they do in a sense.

ok i will wait for yout alternative theory but to say pashtuns are bani isreal is propostrous. There is absolutely no historical evidence for this, neither linguistic nor DNA. Isrealites have never acknowledged this connection.

So you would rather throw away the theory that pashtuns are related to their neighbours and replace it with old wive's tails? good luck with that.

No wonder why we are treated like this when we don't even know our basic history.

[Mandharh]

thanx al-arab, i am happy to hearing that ashtunswerenever ever jews atleast