afghan pashtun dna to be posted soon

[retro]

Good point. The original Dravidians were West Eurasian genetically and were one of the first waves into South Asia. Later when the Indo-Aryans moved in. They pushed some of the original Caucasian Dravidians further South were these Dravidians mixed with aboriginal Weddoid people and became what they are today. Than this new mixed Dravidians also mixed with the new arrived Indo-Aryans and the North Indians we know them today were born.

Well the Kalash are Indo-Aryans and they have outright primal look Indic and West Asian ancestry. Hell 10% of them even have Haplogroup R*.

I think that Indo-Iranics are orginally from the Pontic Steppe. Whilst Ossetian men are Caucasian, Ossetian women are Iranic and they are descendants of the Alans (Scytho-Sarmatians). Whats your take on these Ossetian women?

beautiful Ossetians - YouTube

[Sakapane]

I highly doubt that, as the Irish and Welsh where Celtiberians and the Irish are one of the most homogeneous peoples in Europe. Celtic culture is very Indo-European indeed and Druid in Sanskrit means one 'immersed in knowledge.' Celtic Druidism had close ties to both Middle Eastern and Indic religions.

A Comparison Between Vedic and Celtic Traditions
Vedic and Celtic traditions « Hindu focus

Well sorry but I quite do not understand what you doubt. That Irish people have 9.5% Gedrosia or that this component was to some extend introduced by Indo-Aryans into South Asia. On one side you doubt it on the other side you give evidences yourself which do show a connection between celts and Indo-Aryans.

[Sakapane]

I think that Indo-Iranics are orginally from the Pontic Steppe.

Possible but than they should have been genetically closer to North Caucasians as they are today because the genetic input into South Asia differs significantly from Ukrainian and shows most similarities to North Caucasian one.

Whilst Ossetian men are Caucasian, Ossetian women are Iranic and they are descendants of the Alans (Scytho-Sarmatians). Whats your take on these Ossetian women?

This is a myth yet I havent seen any evidences supporting this thesis. You have to take into account that Sarmatians-Alans did differ from other Scythian tribes. So it is highly possible that the Alans were already like they are today.

[retro]

Possible but than they should have been genetically closer to North Caucasians as they are today because the genetic input into South Asia differs significantly from Ukrainian and shows most similarities to North Caucasian one.

Northern Caucasians are Near Eastern, not South Asia and I'm not sure quite what you mean.

Well sorry but I quite do not understand what you doubt. That Irish people have 9.5% Gedrosia or that this component was to some extend introduced by Indo-Aryans into South Asia. On one side you doubt it on the other side you give evidences yourself which do show a connection between celts and Indo-Aryans.

Gedrosia is far more Western Asian than Indo-Aryan. I'd say that Northern Eurasiatic element in Armenia and Anatolia is PIE since PIE has Black Sea origins. The Celts are from Western Asia as R1b (and they have it in spades) almost certainly arose in Anatolia and Iran. Hence proto-Celtic culture has ties to the Near East (neolithic expansion). However you would have to go back a hell of a long way to place Celts ancestors anywhere near Northern India. As the Celts Indic cultral aspects are likely extremely arcane.

This is a myth yet I havent seen any evidences supporting this thesis. You have to take into account that Sarmatians-Alans did differ from other Scythian tribes. So it is highly possible that the Alans were already like they are today.

Maybe however whilst the Scythians where a large confedration of tribes. The Sarmatian/Alans were a closely related group.

Genetic clues to the Ossetian past

Genetic clues to the Ossetian past « Genetics « Population Geography « GeoCurrents

An earlier study on Ossetian DNA was conducted by Ivan Nasidze and his colleagues from the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Leipzig, the Center of Integrative Genomics at the University of Lausanne and the Vavilov Institute of General Genetics in Moscow, and its results published in a 2004 article in Annals of Human Genetics. This team concluded that a common origin of Ossetians is from an Iranian group, followed by subsequent influx of mostly males from the neighboring Caucasian tribes. According to their findings, mitochondrial DNA data, which traces maternal descent, suggests a common origin for North and South Ossetians, as well as their close affinity with other Iranian groups. In contrast, the Y-DNA data, which traces paternal descent, indicates that North Ossetians are more similar to other North Caucasian groups, and South Ossetians are more similar to other South Caucasian groups, than to each other. In human terms, these findings translate into the following picture: Iranian-speaking Alan women marrying local Caucasian men.

Read more: Genetic clues to the Ossetian past « Genetics « Population Geography « GeoCurrents

...But the plot thickens if we consider the question of where these haplogroup G2a1a Ossetian males might have come from. If we believe that this genetic signature among the Ossetian males comes from the Alans, it is expected that the Alans (or their predessors the Scythians/Sarmatians) must also have been high in haplogroup G2a1a, or its ancestral clade G (see map on the left). Moreover, certain areas of Europe to which large numbers of Alans and other Sarmatians migrated also feature a higher frequency of haplogroup G. However, the subtype of haplogroup G found in these European areas is not the expected Ossetian G2a1a, nor the G2a3b1, common among the Kabardinians of the northwestern Caucasus adjacent to the Ossetians.

Furthermore, examination of ancient DNA from what is thought to be Scythian skeletons from the south Siberian steppes to the northeast of the Caucasus has found only haplogroup R1a1-M17, common in Eastern Europe, parts of Central and Northern Asia (see map). According to Keyser et al. (2009), this haplogroup is the “mark [of] the eastward migration of the early Indo-Europeans”. But if the Scythians/Sarmatians were high in haplogrop R1a1 (and not G), why aren’t more Ossetians in haplogroup R1a1 (which is practically not found in the Ossetian population at all)? Is it the case that (the majority of) Ossetian male ancestors came from an indigenous Caucasian group after all?

And so the mystery of the Ossetians’ past remains…

Read more: Genetic clues to the Ossetian past « Genetics « Population Geography « GeoCurrents

[roadrunner]

Uzbeks are intresting and I'd say the Tajiks influence upon Uzbeks and other Turkic Central Asians is considerable. I'd say that it's likely that the Western Eurasian, looking Pashtuns in Southern Afghanistan and other regions are displaced Northern Persians. As the Caspian sea, Urals and Western Steppes have Eurasiatic, Indo-Iranian associations. Which is why Uralic has Indo-Iranian browings.

That was hilarious. So, after reading the thread with whatever evidence was presented, you came to an interpretation that was diametrically opposite to what the evidence suggested, hilarity ensued!

The Kalash, Chitral and Nuristanis are genetically distinct (geographic isolation) and they aren't closely related to Pashtuns or Kashmiris. However they have ancient Western Eurasian/South Asian, ancestry and are likely fairly indigenous.

The kalash have some significant south Asian ancestry? someone should make you an expert on Pashtun genetics to corroborate some moronic theory so far out of whack that a chimpanzee wouldn't believe it :lol:

[retro]

That was hilarious. So, after reading the thread with whatever evidence was presented, you came to an interpretation that was diametrically opposite to what the evidence suggested, hilarity ensued!

The kalash have some significant south Asian ancestry? someone should make you an expert on Pashtun genetics to corroborate some moronic theory so far out of whack that a chimpanzee wouldn't believe it :lol:

These pointless statements of yours do not make an argument. The Nuristanis and Kalash are Indo-Aryans and they are by some margin the most unusual people in the entire region. As they have clearly been living in the region for a very long time.

The Nuristani people's closest relation is to the Kalash people. Furthermore, they have very little genetic relation to neighbouring ethnic groups like Pashtuns and Kashmiris. This is because they have always remained isolated in the mountains which has led them to become a genetically isolated population. It is also speculated that Nurestani people are of different origin altogether assimilated in the region at at some point of time in history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuristani_people

[Karachi]

kalash are south asian outliners, meaning they have very little native south asian ancestry are mostly west eurasians. They could very well be some remaining tribes of indo-aryans

[retro]

kalash are south asian outliners, meaning they have very little native south asian ancestry are mostly west eurasians. They could very well be some remaining tribes of indo-aryans

The Kalash/Nuristani are not Western Eurasians and it's my understanding that they are regarded as something of a isolate. They are some kind of mixture of Western/Central and South Asian peoples and have weird, spooky looking genetics.

They do have a fair amount of South Asian ancestry. Such as Haplogroup L, which is believed to of emerged in Balochistan.

"A genetic study published led by Firasat (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of :

Haplogroup L3a (22.7%), H1* (20.5%), R1a (18.2%), G (18.2%), J2 (9.1%), R* (6.8%), R1* (2.3%), and L* (2.3%). Haplogroup L originates from prehistoric South Asia."

"mtDNA haplogroup being U4, (pre-HV)1, U2e, and J2"

[roadrunner]

These pointless statements of yours do not make an argument. The Nuristanis and Kalash are Indo-Aryans and they are by some margin the most unusual people in the entire region. As they have clearly been living in the region for a very long time.

A wiki reference does not make an argument.

You might be wondering why the Kalash do not "genetically" resemble the surrounding tribes, as your wiki reference states. The answer is very simple. It is because of genetic drift of small isolated populations. This does not mean the Kalash did not arise from the surrounding populations. They might have. They might not even be genetically distinct.

Indo-Aryans is one of those orientalist terms we get to hear now and again. What is an indo-Aryan? what makes the Kalash genetically indo-Aryan? it's quite a silly term in all reality.

The Kalash have been living there for a long time. But there's no evidence they've been there longer than any of the other major surrounding groups. Your evidence that they have?

[Karachi]

^ indo aryans were a group of people too, I am not saying kalash are them, but since they do speak a really old indo aryan dialect, it is possible they are the closes thing to a indo-aryan that exists today

[Karachi]

I have a question, how much do you think pashtuns would differ genetically from tribe to tribe or place to place?

the problem is, in that spread sheet I posted which showed pashtuns are 22% south asian, I think dna samples are from Peshawar, which is the most eastern pashtun city, now the 22% south asian is actually not far from (jatt) punjabies who show 25-30% south asian in them on average. I think this is the reason, I also think these samples dont represent pashtuns as a whole, I mean they may may represent eastern city pashtuns, but certianlly not the tribal pashtuns/Afghan pashtuns or northern pashtuns from places like Chitral. But that's the thing I am wondering, how much different would it be? I am thinking the average south asian number in pashtuns could range from 10-20% depending on the tribe and location. But that is my estimate, nothing conclusive. Every one does have south asian in them, even a very isloated tribe like Kalash

[roadrunner]

^ indo aryans were a group of people too, I am not saying kalash are them, but since they do speak a really old indo aryan dialect, it is possible they are the closes thing to a indo-aryan that exists today

Indo-Aryans are no more a genetic grouping of people than are the Arabs (syria to sudan) or the Hispanics. They aren't a relevant genetic grouping.

[roadrunner]

I have a question, how much do you think pashtuns would differ genetically from tribe to tribe or place to place?

the problem is, in that spread sheet I posted which showed pashtuns are 22% south asian, I think dna samples are from Peshawar, which is the most eastern pashtun city, now the 22% south asian is actually not far from (jatt) punjabies who show 25-30% south asian in them on average. I think this is the reason, I also think these samples dont represent pashtuns as a whole, I mean they may may represent eastern city pashtuns, but certianlly not the tribal pashtuns/Afghan pashtuns or northern pashtuns from places like Chitral. But that's the thing I am wondering, how much different would it be? I am thinking the average south asian number in pashtuns could range from 10-20% depending on the tribe and location. But that is my estimate, nothing conclusive. Every one does have south asian in them, even a very isloated tribe like Kalash

You're reading too much into the meaning of haplogroup study.

But out of interest, could you put a link to the data? You have to define what is a South Asian marker.

[Wahe Guru]

Indo-Aryans are no more a genetic grouping of people than are the Arabs (syria to sudan) or the Hispanics. They aren't a relevant genetic grouping.

Are the Pashtuns a genetic grouping? Are the Russians a genetic grouping?
Are the French a genetic grouping? Are Arabians (from Arabian peninsular eg Saudis) a genetic grouping?

What exactly is a genetic grouping?
Do you belong to any genetic grouping?

[Wahe Guru]

A wiki reference does not make an argument.

You might be wondering why the Kalash do not "genetically" resemble the surrounding tribes, as your wiki reference states. The answer is very simple. It is because of genetic drift of small isolated populations. This does not mean the Kalash did not arise from the surrounding populations. They might have. They might not even be genetically distinct.

Indo-Aryans is one of those orientalist terms we get to hear now and again. What is an indo-Aryan? what makes the Kalash genetically indo-Aryan? it's quite a silly term in all reality.

The Kalash have been living there for a long time. But there's no evidence they've been there longer than any of the other major surrounding groups. Your evidence that they have?

Why do you not like the term Indo-Aryans? What term would you like to use instead of "Indo-Aryans"?