Ahmad Shah Baba, your thoughts please.

[Admin Khan]

Greetings PF,

So today I was conversing with a few Sikhs, and the topic of Ahmad Shah Baba came up. They pretty much said that he invaded their land against their will, and that they had to suffer. I was wondering what many of you PF'ers think about the claims being made by Punjabis about our national hero? Are they just unsubstantiated claims based on nonsense? Or have we been brainwashed the same way ~170million Pakistanis claim Quad-E-Azam was the one of the best to ever do it?

Lets have a serious discussion please.

I look forward to your thoughts.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Salamoona,

I have had this experience as well. When I was in Washington, one Indian told me directly that the name Abdali has many bad associations. One southern Pakistani once insulted my father with the claim that Abdali and his incursions set up the ideal situation for the British (i.e. he tenderized the meat and British cooked it).

I would say that it depends on through which prism we view Abdali. Here, I had argued regarding Abdali's Islamic motivations:

http://www.pashtunforums.com/politic...yalties-12387/

However, as we all know, Islamic motivations do not translate 100% into being a carbon copy of the Rasul-ul-lah (S).

Whereas the Prophet rode into Makkah and lowered his self to his riding beast and humbly praised God for bringing him back to Makkah in honor... other subsequent leaders would not always emulate this example.

The ultimate question for me has always been: was Abdali good for his people and did he benefit the local Islamic cause. As I showed in the prior essay, I think the the answer to the latter is a reasonable, yes.

His conquests in India certainly benefited the Afghan people, and his leadership and tribal consolidation of the Pashtun territories was a huge accomplishment that neither Khattak nor Suri equaled. Both dreamed of it, but neither had the pull or savvy that Abdali did. For instance, when it came to dealing with the Wazir tribe, Ahmad Shah did not seek to crush their will power when they would not pay a tax. Rather he understood their independence and harnassed their strengths (i.e. invited them on incursions that would be of mutual benefit).

Also, one has to take a consistent stance. Many of these same folks that go after Ahmad Shah Baba regarding his military exploits are the same folks that forgive and forget the Stryker Team acts and dismiss other atrocities with the mantra: "war will result in such things." If that is the case, then they certainly ought not hold Ahmad Shah Abdali responsible for being unable to fully reign in a superarmy comprised of some 60 disparate Pashtun tribes. The fact that the damage was so limited is a testament to Abdali's ability to actually give a measured offensive. To see the full brunt of what the Afghans could accomplish if unleashed see what they did to the British under Wazir Akbar's looser leadership!

[Admin Khan]

Thanks for your sensible post BarakzaiAbdali. Since the winners write the history books, do you perhaps think some events might not be as accurate as we presume? Apparently the Sikhs claim we committed some sort of holocaust against them. I mean, I doubt any Pashtun who lives near Ahmad Shah Baba's zyarat in Kandahar is aware of that. I'm starting to think that perhaps the Sikhs have been brainwashed? My Sikh friend told me when they want to scare their children, they use him as a reference of instilling fear in their mindsets. I believe in Toronto, me and Amir al Ghaznavi also spoke about this topic. We all sort of mutually agreed that innocent Sikhs probably did die, as civilians deaths are bound to happen in war. I just wonder if these exaggerated claims are true against our Baba.

[Manzareh]

Salaam,

To be frank the way history is written and documented in books, it describes how Ahmad after a conquest of India brutaly butchered Sikhs and filled the sarovar of the Golden temple in Amritsa with the blood and corpses of dead animals and humans. This I believe would obviously start a great bitterness against Afghans. However after my personal studys of the great Abdali I find it hard to believe he would do such a thing in such a sinister manner as they proclaim, he was a great Muslim ruler in which one would find it hard for him to do such zullum on a faith and cause sheer embarsment to the Sikhs provoking them to unite againt Muslims even more. Although he went against nearly every prominent schollar/Alim in waging an international Jihad against the Maratha Hindus , I think the safety of his religion,people and lands meant more to him than making beef with his rivals unnessasarily. Ahmad was a mastermind and a genious in every aspect of being a leader. Khudai de ubakhi

[fzpz]

Abdali is a hero. Plain and simple. People exaggerate the claims of both his 'atrocities' and his 'softening' of the Mughals. The mughals were going down the drain fast regardless. Their straying from Islam did them in.

[Admin Khan]

Abdali is a hero. Plain and simple. People exaggerate the claims of both his 'atrocities' and his 'softening' of the Mughals. The mughals were going down the drain fast regardless. Their straying from Islam did them in.

How would you respond to the Sikh claims?

[Toramana]

Depends on which perspective are you looking at it (Pashtun or Sikh nationalist or Islamist or an independent observer). That was a formative phase of Sikh/Punjabi nationalist insurgence and as such any external aggression was bound to be met with equally ferocious resistance. And that added to the lethality of the conflict in which Ahmad Shah Baba had to resort to heavy-handed suppression of the Sikh resistance. Also remember that Ahmad Shah Baba separated Punjab from its natural base or the mainland (Indo-Gangetic plain) and annexed it to his empire. That was bound to have a reaction as well. Having said that, many of the stories that Sikhs narrate (or have invented) of that period are undoubtedly exaggerated aimed at reviving/fanning (Sikh) nationalist zeal (at least at that time).

To me as a Pashtun nationalist, Ahmad Shah Baba is one of the most important symbols of Pashtun identity and pride (and catalyst of nationalistic feelings ) although as a humanist I might not agree with what he did (in Punjab). But then conquests and empire-building was an inevitable character of that period (might is right --- even today when international law and diplomacy are in place). Subsequently, they followed by British invaded us.

[Midnight_Sun]

It's just like the adage goes, One Man's Terrorist is another Man's Freedom Fighter.

The Punjabis and Sikhs do hate Abdali's victories, but they would soon praise Ranjit Singh who desecrated Peshawar and had droves of dancing children as sex slaves.

Alexander the Great was hated and still hated by the Persians, but loved by the Western world.

So who really cares what they think? History happens. He united most of the Pashtuns and we love him for it. Tell your friends to get over it. To each their own.

[emkhan]

Sometimes, the same person is declared a peacemaker from the terrorist at the same time for the same activity. It also depends on the international powers' interests.
Nelson mandela was a terrorists in eyes of the whole world when he was fighting for his people but later on he is given the nobel prize for peace for the same activity.
George Washington was first a terrorist then he becomes the president of the united states. imagine a terrorist no 1 becomes the president of the united states.
May be the today's top terrorists becomes heroes of tomorrow.

[Midnight_Sun]

I can't imagine that because Benjamin Franklin never became President of the United States.

[Admin Khan]

Sometimes, the same person is declared a peacemaker from the terrorist at the same time for the same activity. It also depends on the international powers' interests.
Nelson mandela was a terrorists in eyes of the whole world when he was fighting for his people but later on he is given the nobel prize for peace for the same activity.
Benjimin Franklin was first a terrorist then he becomes the president of the united states. imagine a terrorist no 1 becomes the president of the united states.
May be the today's top terrorists becomes heroes of tomorrow.

Your using Dr.Zakir Naik's argument where he argued how the British initially said George Washington is a terrorist, and later on the same British recognized him as the president and today he is respected by the British since the US and the UK have a 'special' friendship. Listening to a lot of Zakir I see!

Midnight_Sun,
I certainly agree but my question is did this "holocaust" really occur? Apparently they even have talks about in their Gurdwara. From a historical point of view, I am just curious. I honestly can't picture Ahmad Shah Baba doing such a thing, so I find a bit intriguing. We should always read books we hate, and we should always learn about views of those that hate our historical figures. It prepares us as well-rounded individuals. So I personally don't fall for the "to each their own" argument. I guess that's me. I am personally interested in providing my refutation to his claims, and I will leave the rest to him to analyze after I offer the Pashtun perspective. I already did my part, but I am interesting in seeing what our people think about this. I mean, the Indians have gone us far a making 'dramas' about Ahmad Shah Baba, where they depict him as an evil man. :-)

I would like to invite our Sikh members from India to participate and offer their dos-pesos.

[gadoonwal]

The Sikhs and indains are famous for their blame game.
You should just remind that Sikh why ahmad shah baba left india after the victory?.
He occupied the ,,dehli sultanat,,to help the muslims.The sikhs and hindoes baned muslims from the mosques,baned their azan etc..
The mugal kingdom was already on fall.
Ahmad shah did,nt commit any crime there.He left for his beloved pakhtunkhwa after completing the mission.He was savier and invited to india by shah wali ullah.
It was a Sikh Ranjeet Singh committed crime and divided pashtun land.
He was a great a man and pashtun hero.

[Admin Khan]

By the way, those that want to brush up on Ranjit's failed conquest of Afghanistan can feel free to read the link below.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/pashtun-history-8/ranjit-singhs-strategic-depth-failed-conquest-afghanistan-13903/

[emkhan]

dear Admin khan,
i just wanted to say that media and propaganda can turn the black into white and the day into night. so i would say one thing that indians and punjabis are very clever and fast in making propaganda and establishing falsehood.
I have been with them so i know them very well. They will never admit their mistake but will point out your small mistakes. Our pashtuns are innocent you know. They cant talk the way punjabis and indians do.
so just because of this weakness, with all their blunders and harsh history they are still clean and innocent and we are the greatest terrorists, killers, stupids, and so and so

[Midnight_Sun]

Midnight_Sun,
I certainly agree but my question is did this "holocaust" really occur? Apparently they even have talks about in their Gurdwara. From a historical point of view, I am just curious. I honestly can't picture Ahmad Shah Baba doing such a thing, so I find a bit intriguing. We should always read books we hate, and we should always learn about views of those that hate our historical figures. It prepares us as well-rounded individuals. So I personally don't fall for the "to each their own" argument. I guess that's me. I am personally interested in providing my refutation to his claims, and I will leave the rest to him to analyze after I offer the Pashtun perspective. I already did my part, but I am interesting in seeing what our people think about this. I mean, the Indians have gone us far a making 'dramas' about Ahmad Shah Baba, where they depict him as an evil man. :-)

NO Holocaust occurred. A bunch of Maharathas armies were wiped out, lands conquered, booty was taken, some crimes occurred, but nothing on the level or scale of Hitler, Stalin, Genghis Khan, or Timur Lang. They are sore losers, plain and simple.