Do Pashtuns have Identy Crisis?

[Dervaish]

It looks very funny that some pakhtuns on this forum, try to associate their past identity with Jews. Don't we have our own past and history? Don't we have our Pakhtun Father? We are more ancient in history than Jews. Pakhtuns were not slaves in Egypt. Pakhtuns were free people living on the same land as today before Moses appeared in Egypt to deliver Jews. It is Jews who are looking for their unknown father. Tell them " go and find your man somewhere else. We Paktuns are Pakhtuns. It is that simple"

[darwezkhail]

^Yes we Pakhtuns have our father, Qais, 37th descendant of King Saul from whom all the current tribes descend.

If you had time to sift through Saheeh Muslim. Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Bukhari, Kunzul ul Amal, Mishkat al Masabih hadiths you would be aware of this as well.

The most prominent Jewish scholars as early back as the 10th and 12th centuries proposed this as well as many current Jewish rabbis.

[darwezkhail]

And if you throw out a wild claim that Qais never existed, why do thousands of Pashtuns pay homage to his tomb located in the Suleiman mountains of Zhob in Zabul, Afghanistan?

[Alchemist]

^Yes we Pakhtuns have our father, Qais, 37th descendant of King Saul from whom all the current tribes descend.

If you had time to sift through Saheeh Muslim. Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Bukhari, Kunzul ul Amal, Mishkat al Masabih hadiths you would be aware of this as well.

The most prominent Jewish scholars as early back as the 10th and 12th centuries proposed this as well as many current Jewish rabbis.

I ve read through bukhari, and I am familiar with Tirmidhi..and I didn't come across any mention of pashtuns being jews. Also Kanzul ul Amal is some what sketchy and some of its information contraversial. Really there is no genetic basis for this claim...except for hearsay. This is just wishful thinking..in that you are some how holy and blessed. Before Pashtuns were Muslims they were bhuddists and before that only Allah knows best. If Pashtuns were jews before they were muslims, they would still be practicing Judaism in a large number or up until the arrival of Islam. Now some would say that there are pashtuns that are jews in Afghanistan, but you are talking about a few hundred people...there are probably more hindu pashtuns and bhuddist pashtuns or even zorastrian pashtuns.
Not too long ago in a small village near South Africa a village of practicing jews were found...genetic analysis confirmed that the black skinned people of the village were originally from Bani Israel. Still some pashtuns want to claim descent from King Saul ...but I don't think they know who King Saul really is and what the jews themselves say of him...such as how he was a rival to King David, peace be upon him and that he fell upon his own sword and died in disgrace!

[Wrayun]

It looks very funny that some pakhtuns on this forum, try to associate their past identity with Jews. Don't we have our own past and history? Don't we have our Pakhtun Father? We are more ancient in history than Jews. Pakhtuns were not slaves in Egypt. Pakhtuns were free people living on the same land as today before Moses appeared in Egypt to deliver Jews. It is Jews who are looking for their unknown father. Tell them " go and find your man somewhere else. We Paktuns are Pakhtuns. It is that simple"

Grana, Jews know their father, his name is Abraham. From Abraham, comes 3 major religions that controls most of the world and it's politics including the Pukhtoons.

Actually, Pukhtoons don't know who their so-called "Father" is, that is why every Pukhtoon has a theory of his origin. As for Jews being kicked out, looking for land, being slaves...there are plenty of Pukhtoons here that will tell you that Pukhtoons of Pakistan are occupied by Punjaabis, and Pukhtoons of Afghanistan are occupied by Parsiwan/NATO. There are over 6 million Afghan refugees, most of them Pukhtoons, who have fled their home land.

Don't get offended, I totally agree with you notion, but you went about it the wrong way. You tried to degrade Jews in order to show how great Pukhtoons are compared to them. That is wrong. Jews today, are far much stronger, than Pukhtoons could be. Jews are united, have a homeland, are secured, have a strong military, are not occupied, have wealth, most of it the world wealth, own the largest corporations, internet companies and what not.

You should thank Jews actually, the software, PHP and Vbulletin, that allows you as a Pukhtoon to communicate on this platform with other Pukhtoons is made by none other than JEWS, in fact, Israeli Jews to be exact.

What's the point? There is not need to insult Jews, Punjaabis, Parsiwaan, or anyone else to feel good about yourself.

And it's not the Jews fault, it's the Pukhtoons fault who are not happy with just being Pukhtoons. They are the one trying so hard to link themselves to Germans, Arabs, Jews, Greeks, Persians etc. This all stems from illiteracy and lack of knowledge.

[Wrayun]

^Yes we Pakhtuns have our father, Qais, 37th descendant of King Saul from whom all the current tribes descend.

If you had time to sift through Saheeh Muslim. Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Bukhari, Kunzul ul Amal, Mishkat al Masabih hadiths you would be aware of this as well.

The most prominent Jewish scholars as early back as the 10th and 12th centuries proposed this as well as many current Jewish rabbis.

That story is not true for all Pukhtoons, and defiantly not true for actual and ancient Pukhtoons. Pukhto is not a semitic language, where did it come from then? It is an Aryan language, like all other languages of the region. Jews were learned people, what happened to their Aramaic or Hebrew? How many Aramaic and Hebrew word are there in Pukhto besides the one introduced by Islam/Arabic? They also had a writing system, though Sajra of Qais goes only back 1500 years, when the Prophet was alive. That is not enough time to credit over 45 million descendants and various tribes. Where is the Sajra that goes beyond Qais, in what language it is written? Sajra-Afghan is in Arabic script, what script did the original Sajra use?

Qais might be the father of some Pukhtoons, if he existed. In fact according to this very Qais tree, Ghilzai and Karlani are not his blood or descendants. Only the Sadozai/Abdalis are. This is only due to the political differences between these Parso/Afghans vs. the Turko/Afghans. Karlanis are the original Pukhtoons, the descendants of Pakhta and Paktues. It is their language, PAKHTO, that was adopted by the sons of Qais and Ghilzai/Ghiljai Khalaj Turks. Since these two were militarily and politically strong, while original Pukhtoons like the Karlani being primitive tribes men, indigenous people, these two tribes became their Kings and Amirs, only by spreading ISLAM.

And that is your story.

[darwezkhail]

I ve read through bukhari, and I am familiar with Tirmidhi..and I didn't come across any mention of pashtuns being jews. Also Kanzul ul Amal is some what sketchy and some of its information contraversial. Really there is no genetic basis for this claim...except for hearsay. This is just wishful thinking..in that you are some how holy and blessed. Before Pashtuns were Muslims they were bhuddists and before that only Allah knows best. If Pashtuns were jews before they were muslims, they would still be practicing Judaism in a large number or up until the arrival of Islam. Now some would say that there are pashtuns that are jews in Afghanistan, but you are talking about a few hundred people...there are probably more hindu pashtuns and bhuddist pashtuns or even zorastrian pashtuns.
Not too long ago in a small village near South Africa a village of practicing jews were found...genetic analysis confirmed that the black skinned people of the village were originally from Bani Israel. Still some pashtuns want to claim descent from King Saul ...but I don't think they know who King Saul really is and what the jews themselves say of him...such as how he was a rival to King David, peace be upon him and that he fell upon his own sword and died in disgrace!

The hadiths pertaining to this topic have existed for centuries. This is a site whose author has compiled all of such hadiths pertaining to the topic. Although you shouldn't pay much heed to his personal implications IMO just look at the hadiths. I wouldn't have reccomended you the site becasue I disagree with him on certain things but the hadiths are unchanged and there which is what you want to view.

israelis - armyofmahdi

Some can be found here in this database below but I have yet to find a collection of Ibn Majah, etc. viewable online.

CRCC: Center For Muslim-Jewish Engagement: Resources: Religious Texts

[darwezkhail]

That story is not true for all Pukhtoons, and defiantly not true for actual and ancient Pukhtoons. Pukhto is not a semitic language, where did it come from then? It is an Aryan language, like all other languages of the region. Jews were learned people, what happened to their Aramaic or Hebrew? How many Aramaic and Hebrew word are there in Pukhto besides the one introduced by Islam/Arabic? They also had a writing system, though Sajra of Qais goes only back 1500 years, when the Prophet was alive. That is not enough time to credit over 45 million descendants and various tribes. Where is the Sajra that goes beyond Qais, in what language it is written? Sajra-Afghan is in Arabic script, what script did the original Sajra use?

Qais might be the father of some Pukhtoons, if he existed. In fact according to this very Qais tree, Ghilzai and Karlani are not his blood or descendants. Only the Sadozai/Abdalis are. This is only due to the political differences between these Parso/Afghans vs. the Turko/Afghans. Karlanis are the original Pukhtoons, the descendants of Pakhta and Paktues. It is their language, PAKHTO, that was adopted by the sons of Qais and Ghilzai/Ghiljai Khalaj Turks. Since these two were militarily and politically strong, while original Pukhtoons like the Karlani being primitive tribes men, indigenous people, these two tribes became their Kings and Amirs, only by spreading ISLAM.

And that is your story.

Yeah, what you say makes some sense. But according to this tree, Karlanis are shown to be descended from Qais..

[کیش]

I love it when people claim Pashtuns to be Aryans, but never have any kind of evidence to back it up. I've never heard an Afghan back home ever say Aryan and Afghans are one and the same. Only in the west you hear this.

[graveyardofempires]

It looks very funny that some pakhtuns on this forum, try to associate their past identity with Jews. Don't we have our own past and history? Don't we have our Pakhtun Father? We are more ancient in history than Jews. Pakhtuns were not slaves in Egypt. Pakhtuns were free people living on the same land as today before Moses appeared in Egypt to deliver Jews. It is Jews who are looking for their unknown father. Tell them " go and find your man somewhere else. We Paktuns are Pakhtuns. It is that simple"

i dont know if you use the term JEW knowingly or unknowingly but we arent here claiming we are or were jews,the claim is that we could be from bani israel which is totally different thing.it is a people instead of a regligion.

yes we are pukhtane and will stay that way Inshallah but we cant burry our heads in the sand and dont investigate the most important things such as our history and who we are where we come from.
we can hang onto the Arian story but there are many things that dotn add up and let not forget the Islamic sources about this.

[graveyardofempires]

That story is not true for all Pukhtoons, and defiantly not true for actual and ancient Pukhtoons. Pukhto is not a semitic language, where did it come from then? It is an Aryan language, like all other languages of the region. Jews were learned people, what happened to their Aramaic or Hebrew? How many Aramaic and Hebrew word are there in Pukhto besides the one introduced by Islam/Arabic? They also had a writing system, though Sajra of Qais goes only back 1500 years, when the Prophet was alive. That is not enough time to credit over 45 million descendants and various tribes. Where is the Sajra that goes beyond Qais, in what language it is written? Sajra-Afghan is in Arabic script, what script did the original Sajra use?

Qais might be the father of some Pukhtoons, if he existed. In fact according to this very Qais tree, Ghilzai and Karlani are not his blood or descendants. Only the Sadozai/Abdalis are. This is only due to the political differences between these Parso/Afghans vs. the Turko/Afghans. Karlanis are the original Pukhtoons, the descendants of Pakhta and Paktues. It is their language, PAKHTO, that was adopted by the sons of Qais and Ghilzai/Ghiljai Khalaj Turks. Since these two were militarily and politically strong, while original Pukhtoons like the Karlani being primitive tribes men, indigenous people, these two tribes became their Kings and Amirs, only by spreading ISLAM.

And that is your story.

where did you get your info from?

so we are all somehow persians and our pukhto language is one of the persian languages ,is this what you are saying?

just because someone saw us coming from persia doesnt make us persian and persians have this bad habit of making everyone a persian,they say sayed jamaludin al Afghani was a persian,rumi was a persian,some even claim Prophet Mohammad pbuh persian.

[graveyardofempires]

I love it when people claim Pashtuns to be Aryans, but never have any kind of evidence to back it up. I've never heard an Afghan back home ever say Aryan and Afghans are one and the same. Only in the west you hear this.

the only evidence they have is that Afghanistan was called "Ariana" in ancient times so that makes us Persian.

[torkham]

I ve read through bukhari, and I am familiar with Tirmidhi..and I didn't come across any mention of pashtuns being jews. Also Kanzul ul Amal is some what sketchy and some of its information contraversial. Really there is no genetic basis for this claim...except for hearsay. This is just wishful thinking..in that you are some how holy and blessed. Before Pashtuns were Muslims they were bhuddists and before that only Allah knows best. If Pashtuns were jews before they were muslims, they would still be practicing Judaism in a large number or up until the arrival of Islam. Now some would say that there are pashtuns that are jews in Afghanistan, but you are talking about a few hundred people...there are probably more hindu pashtuns and bhuddist pashtuns or even zorastrian pashtuns.
Not too long ago in a small village near South Africa a village of practicing jews were found...genetic analysis confirmed that the black skinned people of the village were originally from Bani Israel. Still some pashtuns want to claim descent from King Saul ...but I don't think they know who King Saul really is and what the jews themselves say of him...such as how he was a rival to King David, peace be upon him and that he fell upon his own sword and died in disgrace!

thanks alchemist. i too have not seen any evidence for baba qais being of jewish tribe or descendent of Saul or Sulaiman RA (is Saul in the Quran?). the best conjecture that exists is the baba qais was from the ancient pashtuns who then travelled to arabia. also correct ancient pashtuns were budhists or like the nuristanis (formerly kafiristanis), ancient people of this land.

i too read the study about the community of black jews of south africa being the most suitable candidates for the lost jewish tribes - of course jews don't want to be associated with africa, since israelis were offered african land to create a home, which they refused and insisted on palestine.

[کیش]

the only evidence they have is that Afghanistan was called "Ariana" in ancient times so that makes us Persian.

I have a hard time believing in anything. In one of the greatest non-religious book ever the "Autobiography of Malcolm X" Malcolm X wrote about about how the European/Whites have rewritten history to suite their needs.


King Saul mentioned in the Quran. He s called King Talut.

[Wrayun]

where did you get your info from?

so we are all somehow persians and our pukhto language is one of the persian languages ,is this what you are saying?

just because someone saw us coming from persia doesnt make us persian and persians have this bad habit of making everyone a persian,they say sayed jamaludin al Afghani was a persian,rumi was a persian,some even claim Prophet Mohammad pbuh persian.

This is your history according to our own and many other historians.

And where does it say that we are Persians? Let me guess, your only issue with the whole Aryan thing is that Persians also claim to be Aryans? So your dislike of Persians is enough for you to close your mind to facts?

Let me break it down for you. Aryan/Iranian doesn't mean Persian. These are linguistic terms that categorize languages with similar roots. Not only Parsi, but Punjaabi, Kashmiri, Hindko, and Hindi are also considered Aryan. Aryan is the title given to a group of people, that spread out into many branches, to whom belong all these and many other languages. It doesn't mean a specific group of people, it just means that all these people and languages share a common heritage.

Just because Persians or Germans dance around the fire with the term Aryan hanging from their neck, doesn't mean they own the term. The Persians only got this attitude towards this title after Europeans and German propaganda about the whole Master Race. Though being the bigots and facsist these people are, when they realized that they are also related by ARYANISM to "porch monkeys" like the Indians, they flipped the story on it's head and claimed the ARYAN INVASION theory of India. Because they had a hard time, and still do today, that they might be actually descendants of Northern Indians, who mutated further down the road with more of the paler and light features due to extreme colder weather of Europe.

Watch this video:

YouTube - Origin of White People Race (North European)