Wardag Controversy of Linkage to the rest of Pakhtuns

[qunduz92]

Assalamu Alaikum,

It's not my intention to cause any dispute amongst members but I wanted to clarify a matter which has, in my opinion, seemed quite a subject of controversy. That is, whether or not Wardags have tribal or ethnic linkages to the rest of Pakhtuns. In other words, do the Wardags have a history of being embedded within the Pakhtun culture and adopting Pakhto as a language over a period of time or are they in fact originally Pakhtuns?

[Admin Khan]

I have several problems with this, where should I begin?

for starters, let's begin by saying no to tribes. We have 500+ tribes, Tribal nationalism = Poison. Why? Because it serves as a mechanism to further divide us. We should refrain from Tribal glorification at all costs. I apologize for going off in a tangent, and to sort of answer your question, Wardaks are Pashtuns. They speak Pashto and adhere to Pashtunwali. That is all that matters. They are proud and honorable Pashtuns, with strong linkage with our history and culture. They are known for their great leadership. Being a Pashtun isn't just a blood connection, there is a lot more to it. Sociologically speaking, there is a great deal of culture involved, and as far as my prerequisite list goes, Wardaks are nothing but Pashtuns. So please, now that you know, let's refrain from slicing our ethnic group by tribal names. We are Pashtuns, and that is all that matters.

Oh, welcome aboard.

[qunduz92]

Don't take it offensively Admin Khan,

My pursuit in gaining this knowledge is solely to bring to light historical facts not to spread division. The tone of your reply hinted a defensive one which was uncalled for. Seeking knowledge is the right of every person and we shouldn't avoid it due to the insecurities people may possess. My question was merely asked for the purpose of gaining knowledge not to belittle any tribe.

[Admin Khan]

Don't take it offensively Admin Khan,

My dear brother, I don't get offended that easily. It takes a lot to get under my skin, so do me a favor, kickback and smile while we begin our discussion here.

My pursuit in gaining this knowledge is solely to bring to light historical facts not to spread division.

I totally understand, but as I clearly said in my initial post, such historical facts are uncalled for, in my opinion at least. Presently speaking, Wardags address themselves as Pashtuns, they follow Pashtunwali, they are big attan fans, and they take pride in their heritage. Why even bother revitalizing an uncalled theory? It's not like they have a problem being a Pashtun or there is such a historical debate going on. Don't be defensive my dear brother, I am trying to make you realize the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that we are all Pashtun, we should refrain from addressing Pashtuns with tribal affiliations. December 2010, Wardags are Pashtuns.

The tone of your reply hinted a defensive one which was uncalled for.

This isn't a war buddy, we are here to discuss something in a professional manner. I don't have my defensive shield up, and I suppose you don't either.

Seeking knowledge is the right of every person and we shouldn't avoid it due to the insecurities people may possess. My question was merely asked for the purpose of gaining knowledge not to belittle any tribe.

I agree, but at the same time we should spend our time more effectively as opposed to finding out who is a Pashtun and who isn't. Lets focus more on ground realities, as I stated earlier, Wardags today proudly acknowledge that they are Pashtuns. If we begin this theory game, guess who is next on line? Are Afridis Pashtuns? Are Khattaks Pashtuns? Each of the aforementioned tribes, have been disputed as either being mixed with Greek, or what ever. So please, you have a right to have an opinion, and PF serving as an open platform, you have a right to state what's on your mind. What I stated in this thread is my $0.2 i.e Wardags are Pashtuns due to culture. Most of our history is not written, and the little itsy bit that is written, is written by Englishmen who perhaps couldn't even utter a single word of Pashto.

[Wrayun]

There are many people and tribes that will no longer be considered Pukhtoons if we are to adopt the primitive, unscientific, and outdated understanding of nationhood that is prevalent amongst our people. The patriarchal system, based on blood linage, is limited in its interpretation and only had one legitimate purpose i.e. inheritance. This is why Pukhtoon tribes are hell bent on proving one another "pure" breed or not. The claim over power, structure, and rule. It is politically motivated.

Let's take Sajra-e-Afghan for example. According to that Sajra, the only tribes that are pure descendants of Qais are the Sadozai/Abdalis, while Ghilzais are descendants of a Syed Shah Hussien Shah who eloped with Bibi Mato. The other largest group of Pukhtoons, the Kalranis, are descendants of a foundling/adopted son. So the legitimacy of Afghanyat is given to a certain group, while the others are rendered illegitimate, not worthy of rule. Politics? Absolutely. The funny thing is that everyone traces their linage from this particular tree. Each and everyone declares this and that a non-Pukhtoon while not realizing the inconsistencies within the foundation.

A tribe, is a nation on it's own. It is impossible to say that everyone in a tribe come from a single forefather. Many times tribes assimilate hosts and neighboring tribes. Over time they all start associating with a single denomination. In larger tribes midst Pukhtoons, like the Ghilzais, Abdali/Sadozai's and Karlanri, many tribes are assimilates. These 3 branches than fall under the single denomination of the Pukhtoon ethnic group. With the Pukhtoon others like the Taajiks, Uzbeks, Hazarjats, Aimaks, Turkmen, Balochs and other North Western Indians etc. fall under the "Afghan" sphere because of close association, geography, and culture.

This disease of proving one a pure Pukhtoon or not is based only midst our people due to ignorance, and illiteracy. Punjaabis, Taajiks, rarely if ever, argue over who is a pure Punjaabi or a pure Taajik.

Wardags, Bannuci, Kunari, Burki/Urmari, Tirahi, Swati, Benuri, Kohistani, Chitrali, Kalashi etc. etc. and other people that designate themselves as Pukhtoons, are ethnic Pukhtoons. The combination of their language, culture, society, and even religious or politically association renders them as such.

For knowledge, and educational purposes I support such debates, but when it turns discriminatory, that shouldn't be tolerated. Who are/were the purest of the purest Pukhtoons? These people:

Pakthas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now where they are today, will require research. But I assume that the Kalnaris fall very close.

[Michin Khel]

Welcome babo
My extensive research says that wardaks are actually yajoj majoj (gog magog).

[Fahd]

lol i didn't know how to start my post :p

i think u should learn why durand line become :p it's all because english ppl learn from the war that evry Empire come to our land was always get f :p so they did this dirty line and want to keep the line .
and those days they want to make Crack inside pashtun !

war is not just by fight !! it's hav alot of Machinations
it's start with race

Welcome babo
My extensive research says that wardaks are actually yajoj majoj (gog magog).

lol dame i didn't know im magog :p

no no seriously thats not sence wrora .
how gog magog looks like :p

hadith

"Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "The Last Hour would not come until you fight with a people wearing shoes of hair and the Last Hour would not come until you fight with a people having small eyes and broad snub noses. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah), Book 041, Number 6958)"








ahhahahha wiki consider all pashtuns as magog :p

Magog: Scythians, Slavs, Mongols, Hungarians, Irish, Finns, Pamiris, Pashtuns

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japheth


!!!

[Toramana]

There are many people and tribes that will no longer be considered Pukhtoons if we are to adopt the primitive, unscientific, and outdated understanding of nationhood that is prevalent amongst our people. The patriarchal system, based on blood linage, is limited in its interpretation and only had one legitimate purpose i.e. inheritance. This is why Pukhtoon tribes are hell bent on proving one another "pure" breed or not. The claim over power, structure, and rule. It is politically motivated.

Let's take Sajra-e-Afghan for example. According to that Sajra, the only tribes that are pure descendants of Qais are the Sadozai/Abdalis, while Ghilzais are descendants of a Syed Shah Hussien Shah who eloped with Bibi Mato. The other largest group of Pukhtoons, the Kalranis, are descendants of a foundling/adopted son. So the legitimacy of Afghanyat is given to a certain group, while the others are rendered illegitimate, not worthy of rule. Politics? Absolutely. The funny thing is that everyone traces their linage from this particular tree. Each and everyone declares this and that a non-Pukhtoon while not realizing the inconsistencies within the foundation.

A tribe, is a nation on it's own. It is impossible to say that everyone in a tribe come from a single forefather. Many times tribes assimilate hosts and neighboring tribes. Over time they all start associating with a single denomination. In larger tribes midst Pukhtoons, like the Ghilzais, Abdali/Sadozai's and Karlanri, many tribes are assimilates. These 3 branches than fall under the single denomination of the Pukhtoon ethnic group. With the Pukhtoon others like the Taajiks, Uzbeks, Hazarjats, Aimaks, Turkmen, Balochs and other North Western Indians etc. fall under the "Afghan" sphere because of close association, geography, and culture.

This disease of proving one a pure Pukhtoon or not is based only midst our people due to ignorance, and illiteracy. Punjaabis, Taajiks, rarely if ever, argue over who is a pure Punjaabi or a pure Taajik.

Wardags, Bannuci, Kunari, Burki/Urmari, Tirahi, Swati, Benuri, Kohistani, Chitrali, Kalashi etc. etc. and other people that designate themselves as Pukhtoons, are ethnic Pukhtoons. The combination of their language, culture, society, and even religious or politically association renders them as such.

For knowledge, and educational purposes I support such debates, but when it turns discriminatory, that shouldn't be tolerated. Who are/were the purest of the purest Pukhtoons? These people:

Pakthas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now where they are today, will require research. But I assume that the Kalnaris fall very close.

Bacaha dair ala...This is one of the few subjects on which I find myself in agreement with you....I absolutely agree that this pure versus non-pure Pashtun issue is politically motivated...Moreover, using this as a base for membership to Pashtun ethnic group is ridiculous...

To me all that speak Pashto and understand and practice Pashtun traditions or those that live with us on our historical land are Pashtuns....

[Toramana]

Fortunately, in Peshawar Valley, this thing is fast disappearing....People are becoming more and more unconcerned of their tribal affiliations...I think the greater Pashawar Valley i.e., Malakand (Swat, Buner, Shangla, Dir, Chitral, Malakand Agency, etc.), Sawabi, Mardan, Peshawar, Kohat, Khyber, Kunar, Nanagarhar, Lamghan, Karak, Bannu, etc. would be the first to get out of these obscure notions.

[Laila]

Fortunately, in Peshawar Valley, this thing is fast disappearing....People are becoming more and more unconcerned of their tribal affiliations...I think the greater Pashawar Valley i.e., Malakand (Swat, Buner, Shangla, Dir, Chitral, Malakand Agency, etc.), Sawabi, Mardan, Peshawar, Kohat, Khyber, Kunar, Nanagarhar, Lamghan, Karak, Bannu, etc. would be the first to get out of these obscure notions.

I like how you call it that :D

people in Laghman are not so into tribes. Reason being, we are just too diverse. There are a lot of Yousefzais, Safis,Alocozais,Momands,and other tribes from Ghilzai. Their clans have learned to get along, especially with land. But yeah we just use Tribes as our family identity, but really for nothing else. But i know in other places, sadly there are problems with tribes.

There is a family that i know....both are from Paktia. But they have problems because one family is Zadran the other family is Mangal.

[qunduz92]

I think the majority of the people that have replied to this thread are suffering from a superiority complex thinking that Pakhtuns must somehow be the best ethnicity and hence the belief present that asking such a question about origins of Wardags as insulting in the first place. Why is it insulting to ask about the origins of any people?

Most likely, if this question had been directed at say any other Pakhtun tribe, I would have been replied with a detailed description of their tribal structure and origins.

Knowledge and historical should never be deemed insulting or covered up.

And why would you all assume my intentions behind asking such a question without even knowing who I am? I could be a Wardag myself for all you know. Let's try to be a little less impulsive in our replies and think in logical terms.

My question, however, was still not answered. If anyone has an answer I would highly appreciate it and am still waiting. If you don't think you know the answer, then please try not to diverge from the subject of the topic and play blame games.

Let me restate my question:

Which tribal structures are the Wardags affiliated with and where do their origins exactly lie? Again, I am waiting for an answer.

[torkham]

Kickback and relax, like admin khan said, then just have a look at Amin Wardak, tell me if he is not pashtu:

http://www.aminwardak.com/

here he is again at 1:50
YouTube - Amin Wardak - Resistance Afghanistan

he is a pashtun no doubt.

[Haris]

I think that people have been slightly harsh with qunduz92 and reading through, her question has not been answered.

So for the benefit of anyone who may be reading this and is still unsure, as qunduz92 is, here is my take on the story.



Firstly, there is no controversy. Wardags are indeed Pukhtuns and are universally considered so by Pukhtun and non-Pukhtun alike.

Now, I don't know what the specific criteria for being considered a Pukhtun is but let me tell you,
Throughout history, the Wardags have more than proven their Pukhtun credentials, playing an important role against the British, especially in the Battle of Maiwand during which a large number of Wardags took part (in that famous image a number of those generals were Wardags) and the uprising by Ghazi Mohammad Jan Khan Wardak (known by all Afghans in Afghanistan) with his brave assault against the Sherpur Cantonment and the sacrafices made (drey zara Afghanan shaheed shwul), with an avenue in Kabul being named in his honour, to name a few.

The resistance against the Soviets, Wardag was an important strategic location in Afghanistan due to it's neighbouring Kabul and location on the important Kabul-Kandahar highway. There was popular support for the resistance and as stated, Amin Wardak was one of the famous leaders.

Wardags are also very strict & conservative Sunni Muslims just like most other Pukhtuns. They also have a reputation for being generally tall and well-built (can personally attest to a few examples) as well as their famous melmastia.

Wardags also have a reputation (among Pukhtuns and non-Pukhtuns) for being amongst the most well educated in Afghanistan with historically large numbers of Wardags making up the entry for Kabul, Khost and other universities. Just look up the respected Abdul Kayum Wardag, Hafizullah Wardag, Dr Muhammad Omar Wardag (leader of the shura), Hafez Nasratullah Albi (creator of 'Afghan Messenger'), Dr Mohammed Ismail Wardak (inventor of the patented 'Afghan Device') and of course Ghulam Sediq Wardak known as the father or invention.

Wardags are also known to be holders of high positions in government including the current defence minsiter (who I am not a fan of) and the education minister both being Wardags. Not to forget the consistently high number of Wardag generals in the army which has historically been the case for many many years (many of my family members had the top military positions such as head of the artillery, air force, infantry etc during Daud's time for example) such as Ghazi Kamal Khan who was a general under Ahmad Shah Baba and frontline commander in the battle in Panipat. Even recently, the last time I was in Afghanistan I had the pleasure of meeting Raees Pulon, a very brave, traditional Pukhtun who had fought the Soviets and now lives in Macroyan, Kabul.

Linguistically all Wardags speak Pakhto. It is a very clear form of Pakhto in the northern dialect and all of the words are pronounced correctly. Most of the more educated Wardags can also speak farsi but that is certainly not to the detriment of Pakhto. Wardags speak perfect pakhto at home and with others and are proud of their own dialect. In fact in the villages farsi-speaking Kabulyan are made fun of. Where Wardags are living far from their native province, they make up communities with the locals respect and have areas named after them like Wardag in Herat or Wardag in Chhachh. Also it is said that along with the mountains of Wazi & Musaid, the pakhto spoken in the mountains of Wardag is probably the closest to the original pakhto (according to issue 3, pg 1-12 of Wazhma magazine, 1962) - don't know if there is any solid proof in that but there ya go.

Wardags marry Wardags. On the whole, they do not marry other Pukhtuns let alone other Afghans. Marriage is also largely limited to nearby villages and is a very traditional process (in the past if a man saw a woman that he liked then he got his AK and went outside the woman's home and shot at the air in the middle of the night, then the woman's father would be majbur to give his daughter to the man otherwise he would be offending his honour.....lol, thankfully that does not happen anymore) and in weddings we also have our own distinct way of celebrating in the villages. It is a simple affair with a few tons of meat being cooked in the huge degs and about a hundred or more men eating their simple shorwa with bread. The men and women are segragated and I don't really know what the women get up to.

Wardags also have their own distinct style of attan which is well-known throughout Afghanistan, how could you get more Pashtun than that? lol

The vast majority of the province (well over 70%) are Pashtuns and the vast majority of Wardags own agricultural land and livestock.



So that's the historical/cultural side of things.
What about genetically?

Wardags are Karlanri Pukhtuns. This is ubiquitously accepted by the vast majority of historians and Pukhtuns. The Wardag tribe is subdivided into three main clans; the Noori, Mayar & Mirkhel. Marriage inbetween the subclans is not always so uncommon but with others it certainly is.

Yes, there has been talk before of Karlan being an adopted orphan or something of that sort and hence questions over whether Karlanris are Pashtuns or not so perhaps that comes into your assumption that Wardags are not Pashtun? Well in that case what do you call Afridis, Khattaks, Mehsuds, Mangals, Waziris...etc, etc? Don't tell me you claim that they aren't Pashtuns either!


I am genuinely interested about how this myth of us not being Pashtuns came about. I did some reading and found this:

The Varoji, or people of the Vardoj district, seem to have planted a colony, at some former period, in the vicinity of Ghazni, where their posterity are now represented by the Wardak tribe, not only from the similarity of names, but also from other corroborative circumstances, such as the similarity of appearance, character, and habits. The Wardak are not Afghan not Pathan by descent, nor Ghilzi, nor Hazara, nor Turk, nor Mughal; by some they are reckoned Tajik, by others they are called Shekh, whilst themselves pretend descent from the Arab Curesh. They speak the Pukhto, but in a corrupt dialect mixed with many foreign words, which may perhaps come from the Vardoj language.

From An inquiry into the ethnography of Afghanistan by H.W. Bellew.

Hah, last time I looked in the mirror, I don't recall seeing a Tajik staring back at me!

Would it surprise you to know that the author is an Indian-born British medical officer? Perhaps not, would it surpise you to know that much of his work has been dismissed as mere hearsay and without any reliable evidence & lacking references by his peers??

Please don't tell me that this is the source of our knowledge of our origins!!

These British orientalists are known for concocting silly stories about those devious 'Pathans' like the stupid story of the antics of Afridi women after battle.

We are NOT considered Tajiks by other Pashtuns despite what Mr Bellew says.

Our tribe started life in Barmal Ghar in the Suleiman mountain range.
Wardags consider themselves Pukhtuns and nothing else despite whatever is written. It is likely that have strong relations with the Zadrann & Mangal (other Karlanri Pukhtuns) which can be seen through the study of the respective dialects.

Some claim that we are Saeds. I doubt this theory. There is no proof for it. It looks like this is only pushed by some obnoxious people to try and elevate their status but I doubt it is true. We are also not Ghilzai Pashtuns either.



Now, I doubt that all Wardags are '100% Pure Pashtuns'. You would be hard-pressed to find many such 'Pure Pashtuns' in that sense considering our long history of foreigners and the mixing of genes that occured as a result.

You may see Wardags with different features to other Pukhtuns but it is important to remember that Wardags themselves are not all 100% alike. I have said before, I have brown eyes while the rest of my family has green eyes. My cousin has blue eyes, pink skin & blonde hair while her brother has dark skin, brown eyes & brown hair. My own brother had this distinct red hair which naturally turned brown and then black as he grew and my two younger brothers had blue eyes which gradually turned green as they grew.

I am sure that there has been some mixing in the genes further down the line but personally I can trace my family tree back over 8 generations, all consisting of Wardag Pukhtuns (barring my great grand dad's brother who married a Kashmirai lol).

We are what we are and we cannot change that. We should not shun people away when they ask questions about our origins but rather open the discussion so that we can all educate ourselves when we are unsure.





By the way, I would defintely not recommend you go upto a Wardag and question his Pashtuness...atleast if you know what's good for you

[muslim]

^very great post.

[Soldat_Amir]

DNA testing has shown the Pashtun people as a whole have mixed origins. Wardaks should not be singled out as being non-Pakhtun, as Pakhtun are all equal.