Non-Muslim Afghans

[Wrayun]

I saw a few posts on PF about Sikh, Hindu, and Jewish Afghans, about their struggle and their place in the Afghan state. I have a question.

When Afghanistan needed all it's children to to defend it, these communities ran towards Israel and India (their real motherlands), doesn't that show where their loyalty actually lies and what they really make of Afghanistan?

I'm not judging anyone, but it begs to question....when these communities are flaunted as "Afghans", are people being politically correct, or there is some merit to it?

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

You're right, Wrayun.

When in 1976, the Pakistani government decided to destabilize the then potentially prosperous Afghan state by using state-sponsored Jihadi terrorism (blowing up schools, beheading teachers, killing technicians and aid workers, etc), every red-blooded Afghan should have stayed back to defend his homeland along with the rest of his well-wishers, foreign and local.

[Admin Khan]

I saw a few posts on PF about Sikh, Hindu, and Jewish Afghans, about their struggle and their place in the Afghan state. I have a question.

When Afghanistan needed all it's children to to defend it, these communities ran towards Israel and India (their real motherlands), doesn't that show where their loyalty actually lies and what they really make of Afghanistan?

I'm not judging anyone, but it begs to question....when these communities are flaunted as "Afghans", are people being politically correct, or there is some merit to it?

Wrayun,
what makes you think they are not defending it? I know many Afghans who are Hindu by faith, and let me tell you, they will feel insulted if you call them Indian or Israeli They speak Pashto and live Pashto. They are sad about the current situation, most of their land has been illegally confiscated and here they are in the west reminiscing about the good old days.It's hard to live in a society ruled by war-lords. Many of these war lords that are running the show in Afghanistan have hardly completed high school education.

[Wrayun]

You're right, Wrayun.

When in 1976, the Pakistani government decided to destabilize the then potentially prosperous Afghan state by using state-sponsored Jihadi terrorism (blowing up schools, beheading teachers, killing technicians and aid workers, etc), every red-blooded Afghan should have stayed back to defend his homeland along with the rest of his well-wishers, foreign and local.

Nonsense, Pakistan is a puppet and just one part of the equation, why single them out alone? It's good enough for you and millions of other to live in and prosper. We all have our double-standards don't we?

Nazia,

You and I have left, but you and I both have family, relatives, and friends we know and can point to who have defended Afghanistan...can these communities?

As for those who stood behind, like that one Jew, he only came back during the Taliban time, after they secured it enough for him to return. Besides, they are protecting their interests i.e. holy shrines, lands, property, they are not fighting for it. Maybe there are some who did fight, and I am ignorant about it.

[Wrayun]

Wrayun,
what makes you think they are not defending it? I know many Afghans who are Hindu by faith, and let me tell you, they will feel insulted if you call them Indian or Israeli They speak Pashto and live Pashto. They are sad about the current situation, most of their land has been illegally confiscated and here they are in the west reminiscing about the good old days.It's hard to live in a society ruled by war-lords. Many of these war lords that are running the show in Afghanistan have hardly completed high school education.

Being proud of cultural identities for aesthetics is one thing, defending them with your life is another. Their sadness over the situation in Afghanistan resulted into self-preservation (migration), and did not materialize in defense of their country.

[Toramana]

Nonsense, Pakistan is a puppet and just one part of the equation, why single them out alone? It's good enough for you and millions of other to live in and prosper. We all have our double-standards don't we?

Instead of those wild kicks in the air as you usually do to assert yourself "intellectually", you should answer Lewanay's main point i.e., a lot of well-to-do Afghans also ran for safety of the West so how could you complain about innocent communities like Hindus, Jews, etc. who were the most vulnerable of all those caught in the midst of Jehad/fasad if you "the loyal sons of the soil" made an escape earlier than them.

[Laila]

Wrayun wrora, i can see where you are coming from.

In London, there is an area called Soutthall. Many of the store keepers are Sikh Afghans. I conversed with a few. They speak, breed, think like Afghans do. They speak both langugages, they know and live by Afghanyat, though they are not Muslim, but they are free to live by their own religious belief. But what i loved the most, was their patriotism. There was one man i sat down and literally talked with for about an hour at a restaurant. What got me the most, he cried. He said how much he loves his motherland, Afghanistan. His mother was 'sent' to Poland for studies the first year of the Soviet Invasion. The people sent her was through the Communist. Till today, she has never came back....no one knows if she is still alive. The mans father was killed by the Communist government. But from his eyes, i saw love, respect, patriotism, and loyalty. Sure many of us had left when our country needed us the most. Many lives were in danger; many lost families; fathers, bothers, the high male figures were captured and killed; army men, doctors, professors, were in danger. So it was understandable why many left.

But never once, did i think the Sikhs, Hindus, Jews of Afghanistan didnt stand up for their own country. They love it, just as much as a Muslim does. Sure, back then, there may not have been a reasonable amount of Non-Muslim Afghans in the army, but that doesnt say they werent possibly defending it in their own way

In Kabul, there is a district called Khair-Khana and Shaare Naw....many of the storekeepers are Sikh Afghans. And they are proud to say they are Afghan

So i dont think you are ignorant, not at all. I just found out today that there is a big number of traditional Afghan Jews.

[Wrayun]

Instead of those wild kicks in the air as you usually do to assert yourself "intellectually", you should answer Lewanay's main point i.e., why did a lot of well-to-do Afghans also run for safety of the West so how could you complain about those innocent communities i.e., Hindus, Jews, etc. who were the most vulnerable of all those caught in the midst of Jehad/fasad if you "the loyal sons of the soil" made an escape earlier than them.

Predictable.... typical knee-jerk reaction of a pseudo keyboard revolutionary.

The subject is not about Afghan social classes, rather cultural/religious communities. If you meant many well-to-do Muslim Afghans, I can't speak for them all, but many supported the resistance of their motherland financially, morally, and rhetorically to the least.

Hindu, Sikhs, and Jewish Afghans, those that I have come across are always well off and better than your typical Muslim Afghans. They are all from trading/business professions, and I wonder if they spent any thing in defense of their motherland.

Any clues?

[drona]

Yes. These communities should have "embraced" Islam rather than follow their own backward rituals. This would have magically turned Afghanistan into their motherland and they would have "defended" it.

[Toramana]

Predictable.... typical knee-jerk reaction of a pseudo keyboard revolutionary.

The subject is not about Afghan social classes, rather cultural/religious communities. If you meant many well-to-do Muslim Afghans, I can't speak for them all, but many supported the resistance of their motherland financially, morally, and rhetorically to the least.

Any clues?

One of the respected forum members i.e., Muhsina has called you "Wrund"(the blind one) and as is obvious from your stray posts, not for wrong reasons. You simply can't see that Hindus, Jews, Christians, etc. couldn't be insular to the realities and the consequent rules of the game of the country in which they were living their lives and where the majority based on its religious/Islamic affiliation asserted the FIRST RIGHT to citizenship as well as to constitutional -institutional guarantees for social and political participation.


Patriotism is not just an empty sentiment that should pop up in you for nothing. It arouses in you in response to your sense of being considered important by the society where you live and the state (of which you are a citizen alas second-class) rules. Now when the majority Muslims consider themselves to be the real owners of the state but run away, you cannot lay blame on a minuscule minority who live on the fringes for betrayal.

Furthermore, when the war was being fought in the name of Jehad/Islam, how could the religious minorities participate in it and for what reward? Who could guarantee that Hindus, Jews, etc. support for Gulbuddin would not arouse the wrath of Ahmad Shah Masood, haan and embroil them in the subsequent civil war at great risk to their collective well-being?

Herein lies another lesson for you provided you put the Islamist zealotlsm within you aside and ponder over the matter thoroughly i.e., secularism is the ultimate answer to as how to secure the rights and patriotic feelings of all citizens irrespective of religious affiliation.

[Admin Khan]

Being proud of cultural identities for aesthetics is one thing, defending them with your life is another. Their sadness over the situation in Afghanistan resulted into self-preservation (migration), and did not materialize in defense of their country.

Didn't millions migrate en masse? They in particular, were already victims of exoneration and demonization. Many have still remained in Afghanistan, however, an overwhelming majority moved out. Pashtuns to an extent, followed suit. But as I type this, Afghan Hindus/Sikhs are extremely patriotic and will serve Afghanistan for Afghan interests.

Pa har insaan bandey khpal zaan der graan dey. Pashtano ta nakey da 'big brother' lakab nadey warkawal sawey, all ethnic groups have defended Afghanistan but we Pashtuns have defended Afghanistan to a higher extent vis-a-vis our counterparts. We don't like being subdued.As interesting as this might sound, when you sit in a Tazek[Tajik] round table, they will blame everything on Pashtuns because they feel like since we Pashtuns defended this nation against NATO and many other superpowers, our collateral damage and internal instablity was a direct result of our opposition of foreign presence. Wos no ta dey sar war khlassa wa.

[Wrayun]

Toramana,

One of the respected forum members i.e., Muhsina has called you "Wrund"(the blind one) and as is obvious from your stray posts, not for wrong reasons.

I wonder how much "respect" will remain for said member if the truth was to come out. Sadly he called me wrund for having similar views in respect to that whole Loy Afghanistan vs. Pukhtoonistan argument. But calling people names, spreading conspiracies, character assassination etc. is the same old game played by dishonest individuals who hide under multiple identities with the sole purpose to handicap discussions in their favors. Something you should know very well.

You simply can't see that Hindus, Jews, Christians, etc. couldn't be insular to the realities and the consequent rules of the game of the country in which they were living their lives and where the majority based on its religious/Islamic affiliation asserted the FIRST RIGHT to citizenship as well as to constitutional -institutional guarantees for social and political participation.

Patriotism is not just an empty sentiment that should pop up in you for nothing. It arouses in you in response to your sense of being considered important by the society where you live and the state (of which you are a citizen alas second-class) rules. Now when the majority Muslims consider themselves to be the real owners of the state but run away, you cannot lay blame on a minuscule minority who live on the fringes for betrayal.

Here you contradict yourself, on one hand you try to justify their lack of patriotism because of the secondary treatment they MIGHT have received, yet you go on to explain that even that shouldn't be enough to stop you from being patriotic. What is it? Are they true patriots even though they might have been second class citizens, or are they not because of it? Make up your mind.

And majority of the Muslims didn't leave. Fail!

Majority of the migrants were Muslims, but that is due to their sheer numbers. Even then, majority of these migrants supported their motherland to the point that after migrating their families to safety, they went back to liberate it. Without them there would be no resistance.

Furthermore, when the war was being fought in the name of Jehad/Islam, how could the religious minorities participate in it and for what reward? Who could guarantee that Hindus, Jews, etc. support for Gulbuddin would not arouse the wrath of Ahmad Shah Masood, haan and embroil them in the subsequent civil war at great risk to their collective well-being?

Now you are just making excuses for them. The war was being fought as Jihad, yet this Jihad was secular enough for the Westerners to participate in. If it was good enough for these non-Muslim secular Westerners (crusaders) to get involved in and help the resistance, it should have been good enough for these non-Muslim Afghans. If you are going to bring up the argument of their "interest", the interest of these non-Muslim Afghans was even greater, IT WAS THEIR FCKING COUNTRY!

Herein lies another lesson for you provided you put the Islamist zealotlsm within you aside and ponder over the matter thoroughly i.e., secularism is the ultimate answer to as how to secure the rights and patriotic feelings of all citizens irrespective of religious affiliation.

What ever "zealotism" I suffer from is in the clear, unlike you who even though try very hard to suppress it, your fascist ideals slips from your prejudicial mind on these forums. One only has to go and search your posts to validate my claim. These Hindus, Sikhs, are no different than the "sons of Ranjit Singh", and "cow worshipers" you despise so much in Pakistan. I can only wonder what you will say to Drona if he came along to ask the hand of your beautiful Pukhtoon daughter in marriage in such wonderful secular state. For me, the only objection might be religious beliefs, but for people like you, the "dark Hindu indic cow worshiper, son of Ranjit Singh" will have to go through a genetic transformation.

Don't hide behind secular humanism, you don't even know what that means. You only flaunt that to be a celebrity. Look at me I am a secular humanist YAAY! Really? You often come off as a racist bigot. It's cute, you sticking up for these Hindus and Sikhs, but in reality you consider them less than yourself. A person that constantly reminds Pakis and Pathans of their "Indian" origins in hope of shaming them, can't be serious when defending these Afghan Hindu and Sikh inferior "Desis".

Truly pathetic though, when you don't know what you want.

Have a jolly day.

[Wrayun]

Yes. These communities should have "embraced" Islam rather than follow their own backward rituals. This would have magically turned Afghanistan into their motherland and they would have "defended" it.

So you agree, that Afghanistan can only be your motherland and sacred enough to defend, if you were of the Islamic faith?

Thanks man.

If there is a war between India and Pakistan, and the Indian Muslims didn't do anything to defend it, all the while claiming to be Indians, you'll know where I am coming from. Your Indian brotherhood will be tested. In fact Indian Hindus are always moaning about how Indian Muslims support Pakistani cricket team over their own Indian team. They have legitimate concerns i.e. not enough Muslims in the team, though that doesn't stop your average Hindu from criticizing his fellow Muslim Indian.

Ram Ram!

[Wrayun]

My experience with an Afghan Jew.

When I was young I used to visit a sports gym managed by some guy name Fazli. One day he asked me where I was from so I told him I am a Pukhtoon, an Afghan. He told me that he too was an Afghan, and Jewish. Young, a fob, excited to know another Afghan even though a Jew, I thought the guy would be a good sport i.e. give me extra time to play, access to equipment etc. However it turns out that I was nothing but a joke for him. Every time I will see that guy, in front of others he will constantly make fun of Pukhtoons (me). For example, we don't have windows in our homes in Afghanistan (he didn't know I wasn't from Afghanistan), Pukhtoons enslave their women, they find rocks to wipe their ass, they ride donkeys for transportation, they chase goats for sex. He would say, you are a cute boy, don't go to Kandahar alone. No matter what he will say, my only response that would shut him up, and what little I knew, was:

No matter what Pukhtoons (MUSLIMS) do or are, we defended Afghanistan, while you ran away with your tail between your legs like a coward (with all your money and wealth).

That would shut him up. Because he knew it was true. He will laugh about it....what else can he do?

After all he was only insulting the Pukhtoons of Afghanistan. Little did he know that I come from Pukhtoonkhwa, with a huge house, with many windows, with both Western and Muslim style bathrooms and never used rocks to wipe my ass. But I was offended nonetheless. Some would argue that my personal experience doesn't matter....probably it doesn't....Reason for sharing this story? Well since many of you shared great patriotic experiences, why not this one?

[drona]

Wrayun,

So you agree, that Afghanistan can only be your motherland and sacred enough to defend, if you were of the Islamic faith?

I am not arrogant enough to judge the patriotism of a person for his motherland. My comment was in a sarcastic vein and attacked the presumption that the patriotism is defined by an individual's religion. One can change the religion, but one can not change his/her motherland.

If there is a war between India and Pakistan, and the Indian Muslims didn't do anything to defend it, all the while claiming to be Indians, you'll know where I am coming from. Your Indian brotherhood will be tested.

Your arrogance and ignorance is laughable. Many Indian Muslims have distinguished themselves in multiple wars against Pakistan and have received highest military honors. I suppose even the most pious Muslims will willingly sacrifice himself in a war against Pakistan as the Pakistani State stands for every unislamic evil there is. Islam stands for love, tolerance, and accommodation. The Pakistani State stands for hatred and bigotry which is reflected in the manner in which the inter ethnic/sectarian disputes are settled there.

In fact Indian Hindus are always moaning about how Indian Muslims support Pakistani cricket team over their own Indian team. They have legitimate concerns i.e. not enough Muslims in the team, though that doesn't stop your average Hindu from criticizing his fellow Muslim Indian.

I have commented that your posts are simplistic and ridiculous. But this one really takes the cake. I never knew that there were these creatures called "Indian Muslims" and "Indian Hindus". So where do they live ? Can you point them out to me ?

Since you seem to be missing the necessary equipment to detect sarcasm, I shall explain in detail. The Hindu and Muslims communities in India are not monolithic. The vast majority of Muslims cheer for Indian team not because of "x" number of Muslims playing in the team, but rather because the team represents India which is their homeland. The question of religion is irrelevant.

In a vast and diverse countries like India, you will find individuals who espouse political beliefs of every hue. So there are few Muslim zealots who do cheer for Pakistani team. There are Hindu zealots (just like you) who stereotype the *whole* community and comment that they support Pakistanis. This narrative has its root in the monstrous two nation theory which encourages compartmentalization and stereotypization of heterogeneous communities into convenient homogeneous groups having mutually conflicting economic and political interests.

This narrative doesn't hold for the majority of Indians (of all communities), otherwise there would be a raging civil war in every Indian city and village. I would advice Afghan friends to follow India's example rather than Pakistan's to settle their inter-ethnic/linguistic/religious differences .

Ram Ram!

Are you a mushrik, kuffar or murtad ?


Salaam
Drona