Is Purdah part of Pashtoon Culture?

[Khailzai]

Is Purdah part of Pashtoon Culture? I would say it is. What do others say?

I have also come to realize that when you ask a Pashtoon who has never travelled to the "West" about why she or women cover themselves up - apart from saying that it is part of our religion/the reason why we are muslims, or worst that it is our tradition, they don't know the real reason.

That is not surprising because when you live in a muslim country it is considered "wrong" to question your religion. It is only when you live in the US/Canada or Europe where non-muslims constantly ask you questions about your religion, that you really start understanding your religion.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well the word Purdah isn't in Pashto. The answer to your question is YES and NO.

It wasn't originally apart of Pashtun culture because Pashtuin began as nomadic people and Nomads didn't have a reason to administer purdah. However as Pashtuns settled in Villages and towns they started to adopt Purdah because it was the custom of other sedentary peoples.

[Badlun]

well the word Purdah isn't in Pashto. The answer to your question is YES and NO.

It wasn't originally apart of Pashtun culture because Pashtuin began as nomadic people and Nomads didn't have a reason to administer purdah. However as Pashtuns settled in Villages and towns they started to adopt Purdah because it was the custom of other sedentary peoples.

Great that you admitted that purdah has nothing to do with being a Pashtun or with Pashtunwali. This is the right thinking.

When Pashtun became sedentary people? After Islam/Islamism and Islam introduced the concept of purdah. Otherwise Pashtun women would enjoy the liberties what are enjoyed by non Muslim women.

[DaZahroJaam.]

i was invited to this wedding at a very isolated village or community in sarobi and what i saw of that community was very strange and interesting to me. the women were wearing the traditional cloths and their long scarves but when the men who were not necessarily their immediate family members would appear, they did not hide their faces or go in to hiding.
then i went to this other wedding in tagaw/taggab and surely, when the men appeared, they all hid their faces and cleared off from the scene. so i asked my uncle who is very well accustomed to both of the communities and according to him, it all depended on the fact that men from the first village were people who had grown amongst each other and could be trusted. the second community was a larger one and everyone was not necessarily related even remotely. so if you don't know the people or their intentions, as a woman of that society, it is advised that you do pardah. not necessarily for religious reasons but on the grounds of common sense.. and it makes perfect sense to me.


badlun, imagine you are a woman and you have no other choice but to appear in public in a society where men are not accustomed to seeing women's faces or women dressed in cloths that we know is islamic but not appropriate by their means... you walk in to this scene and you have 500 pairs of eyes staring at you.
do you seriously believe that you as a woman who is aware who is well aware of the sort of society she has stepped in to at that moment, you can not be held responsible a tiny bit for the sort of sinful thoughts that are running through the minds of those men?? does it not become religious at that point??

yeah, it's wrong and it should be changed but at that moment, as an individual who is aware of what is happening right there, are you not under any sort of obligation to make the right choice and would you not be held accountable on religious grounds if you ignore that??

[Badlun]

DZJ
How weak we are as a society and individual that in your second example, when men appear, women hide themselves. Is it not absurd that in presence of so many people like in a wedding ceremony women feel themselves so much vulnerable that they have to hide where they face strangers.

Do you think if the women do not cover their faces or do not hide they will be molested or sexually harassed in presence of such a large number of people? Or it is the phobia of women or an animal instinct that the lion appears and they prey runs away?

[DaZahroJaam.]

i never said we don't have a problem. we do.
we talk about problems to convince each other of the fact that there is a problem at hand. the next sensible and productive thing to do is to work a formula to come up with a short term solution for a problem and a long term one.
if we keep talking and talking and talking about the existence of a problem and do not move on to a solution for it, we are wasting not only everyone elses time, but our own time as well. there is no point to it.
the short term solution for this problem is that in order for these women to be protected momentarily, they must observe parda and whatever other preventive means of protection are available out there for them. that would be appearing in public with male members and not leaving the house at odd times of the day or night.
the long term solution would be educating the society on the importance of not being stuck in a rut by sticking to the short term solution as well as doing the right thing which is allowing women the freedom to live peacefully in a proper society.
more importantly than giving a woman her basic rights in a society is making that society a civil and safe environment for her to practice those rights in. i genuinely believe that the majority of women in afghanistan would not be forced to stay home rather than pursuing further education and having a active and meaningful part in creating a brighter future for afghanistan if the men in their families were convinced and assured of their safety outside their homes. i strongly believe that.

[Badlun]

Yes I believe in devolution or evolution but some times we need revolution. Your short term and long term solutions make a vicious circle. Stuck in the short term, you will never reach the long term. Here we need a revolution to break the vicious cycle. For this revolution we need awareness and identifying the causes.

The main cause is Islamism in our society. The less Islamism the more will be modernism and more openness. Here we are creating awareness in the virtual world and in the real world let us start from our home and then spread the revolution of liberating the women from the clutches of purdah and making them equal human beings.

[DaZahroJaam.]

you love going in circles, don't you?? I am going to be sick now. I knew arguing with you with a headache this bad was not going to end well..

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Great that you admitted that purdah has nothing to do with being a Pashtun or with Pashtunwali. This is the right thinking.

When Pashtun became sedentary people? After Islam/Islamism and Islam introduced the concept of purdah. Otherwise Pashtun women would enjoy the liberties what are enjoyed by non Muslim women.

I never said that, In fact I said YES and NO to the question. I said that it wasn't a NOMADIC Pashtun custom I believe that Pashtunwali began long after Pashtuns became an established ethnicity. And that Pashtunwali probably became consecrated around the 15th century. I actually found that Kuchi Nomads do not practice Pashtunwali. How can they? Concepts like nanawatai and melmastia can only be applied in sedentary context. Which hints that Pashtunwali happened after the settlement of Pashtuns.

Pashtunwali is actually a borrowing of different customs and practices drawn from surrounding cultures and hence that's why Purdah could be argued as an extension of Pashtunwali. When Pashtuns settled THEN they started using Purdah and such things.

[Khostai]

Great that you admitted that purdah has nothing to do with being a Pashtun or with Pashtunwali. This is the right thinking.

When Pashtun became sedentary people? After Islam/Islamism and Islam introduced the concept of purdah. Otherwise Pashtun women would enjoy the liberties what are enjoyed by non Muslim women.

Islam or Islamism is not the only responcible for this, if I am correct what is now Afghanistan had also a lot of influece from helenic culture, you can find a lot of budhas statues in greek cloths, and in greek society there was also the thing that women were not allowed to go outside, or go to school, they had actualy no rights at all. So you can say that they took that custome from them... Islam doesn't restrict women that much like our culture does with the Purdah, in Islam a women can go and seek education and be part of the society. In Pashtunwali this is almost not heard of.

But thank God this slowly changing, in a lot of Pashtun regions were girls going to school was unheard of, like Khost for example, grils are now going and are educating themself and becoming active participants of the society.

[DaZahroJaam.]

and badlun, do you really believe that women hiding away from men is a mere phobia of being assaulted?? how do acid attacks happen?? how does that stupid ghag thing where men show up on your doorstep, shot in the air and claim you for them self or kidnappings happen??
obviously they saw you somewhere and decided they wanted you for themself. and in a society where men don't know much about right or wrong let alone human rights, of course that sort of things are going to happen more than every once in a while.

[Badlun]

Islam or Islamism is not the only responcible for this, if I am correct what is now Afghanistan had also a lot of influece from helenic culture, you can find a lot of budhas statues in greek cloths, and in greek society there was also the thing that women were not allowed to go outside, or go to school, they had actualy no rights at all. So you can say that they took that custome from them... Islam doesn't restrict women that much like our culture does with the Purdah, in Islam a women can go and seek education and be part of the society. In Pashtunwali this is almost not heard of.

But thank God this slowly changing, in a lot of Pashtun regions were girls going to school was unheard of, like Khost for example, grils are now going and are educating themself and becoming active participants of the society.

Greeks might had a tradition of observing purdah but no more now at least in 21st century. Muslims because of Islamism still does so. Quran asks women to stay at home and hadith urge the same. Women cant move around without Muarram. Let us admit the fact that purdah is more religious than cultural.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Greeks might had a tradition of observing purdah but no more now at least in 21st century. Muslims because of Islamism still does so. Quran asks women to stay at home and hadith urge the same. Women cant move around without Muarram. Let us admit the fact that purdah is more religious than cultural.

But if we examine the meaning and application of Purdah, they don't in anyway resemble the Islamic injunctions.For example Purdah restricts the movement and agency of women in more ABSOLUTE terms. This is irregardless of whether or not a woman has a mahram or not. The idea is her place is not in society

In Islam, the requirement of a mahram is not intended to restrict her movement but rather to escort her from potential dangers that may arrive whether by humans or natural circumstances. Also the requirement for Mahram is not for LOCAL travel. It is for long distance travel where such dangers would be more pronounced. In other words normal travel within a local environment where she participates in society is perfectly acceptable. It's only when the travel is long distance does her mahram become needed...and only as a protection against dangers, not as a restriction.

This is different than purdah; which does not factor in any of this. The Line in the Qur'an that you suggest tells women to stay at home is actually in reference to the Household of Prophet Muhammad(saw) not a general directive for women. And more over it is not an ABSOLUTE directive

“And abide quietly in your homes, and do not flaunt your charms as they used to flaunt them in the old days of pagan ignorance; and be constant in prayer, and render the purifying dues, and pay heed unto Allāh and His Messenger: for Allāh only wants to remove from you all that might be loathsome, O you members of the [Prophet's] household, and to purify you to utmost purity.” [33:33]

What is saying there is telling them not to come out to flaunt and display themselves like in the Jahiliyah. It does not restrict women's movement at all actually. So in conclusion the Purdah as Practiced by Pashtuns has to be based on Pashtun cultural approaches, and not Islam at all.

[Badlun]

I do not know how Quranic Injunctions are relative and not absolute! If Quranic injunctions and traditions of the Prophet are contextual, relative, qualified,figurative and not absolute then Quran and Hadith become time bound and no more applicable and I will 100 % agree with it.

Also I do not know where in Islam it is mentioned that Mahram is for long distances and not for short distances?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Badlun, it;'s simple, read the context. The verse is talking about displaying oneself for vanity without any real meaningful purpose or motives And we see it is advocating this in that respects.

Not sure why you're so confused.

There are different KINDS of contexts in the Qur'an, Just like SOME contexts have higher degree of urgency. For example defending of one's life. Some contexts are based more on environmental circumstances, like how to penalize a thief. Just because I said there's a context doesn't mean ALL contexts are the same and that everything is relative. You have to read the actual verses, look up the actual Historical Application of those verses and also do some logical analysis based on different evidences to see to see what degree of context it is. It maybe ALMOST absolute, like you can't eat pork BUT if you have no other food then you can ....or very loose and relative, Like Inheritance where if a Man's daughter is more trustworthy than the sons, then she can get greater inheritance.


About your second question:

Sayyiduna Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (Allah be pleased with him) narrates that the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him & give him peace) said: “Let no woman travel for more than three days unless her husband or a Mahram is with her.” (Sahih Muslim)

I Thought you studied Fiqh and Understood Arabic; how come you studied all of this but could not find this well known hadith but I found it in five minutes? I think you have been falsifying yourself Badlun.