Pashtun system of marriage has benefits...

[Toramana]

Well first of all this claim is nonsensical, Pashtuns are "tradition" bound; they attach themselves blindly following merely because their ancestors did it; nothing is MORE Anti-Progressive of a mentality, and there is nothing "Natural" about it, on the contrary it is very awkward and counter-intuitive. Islam is open to interpretation because it's dynamics are intended to be applied in analogy to approach new situations using the fundamental tools. How can one re-interpret a degrading and filthy practice like forcing a woman to marry her akhshai when her husband dies; or selling a woman in walwar or other TOTALLY immoral things which Pashtuns have done for centuries and centuries and carried with them from their Hindu and Zoroastrian ancestors? On the contrary it is more enshrined because it is seen as a tradition and things which are traditions are followed unquestioningly without any reinterpretation.

Polygamous marriages isn't really an issue in the 21st century; most males cannot even conceive of it and the male-female ratio is about equal now that it is simply not very feasible. Only a few pockets have this as major societal issue. However it is better to be in a Polygamous Islamic marriage than a Monogamous Pashtunwali marriage which is more or less like a form of prostitution since the father profits from forcing his daughter to marry a man. At least in Islam a woman has the choice to say yes or no to a marriage; not in Pashtunwali.

The 2 women equal 1 man argument has been debunked and refuted. If Pashtuns practice such things then the blame is the misogynistic character within Pashtun culture; not Islam.

Islam is holistic and comprehensive; there are some fudamentals of course which define its structure those are the skeleton of Islam; but everything else is breathable and as long as it doesn't contradict the skeletal stucture is open to growth and newer applications.

What a buffoon ---Now your desert ego is hurt and you are coming and telling me the worldly Pashtunwali, which has been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries which has no fixed written law in the stone that must not be changed and must be implemented in liter and spirit is the same in rigidity as the backward and retrogressive ways of your Yemanide ancestry---

Bravo---you and this Barakzai Abdali the disciple of Abdullah Aazm, Osama Bin Laden, and Aimen Alzawahiri are reviling in self-delusion for sure---At the same time Barakzai is writhing in jealousy being a loser in Afghan game where Karzai and other Afghan notables are calling the shot and building a nation while he is yearning for the return of the golden age of Mullah Omar where he can be of some worth (can provide medical services to the harem of Mullah Omar and those of his Arab buddies).

As for polygamous marriages what if Mullah Barakzai decides tomorrow he is gonna replenish his harem with some worldly hurris, how are you gonna prevent him based on religious injunctions? And you know there are no limits to Mullah lust (By this I don't mean Muslim scholars who are respected people).

Thanks for the nice exchanges though.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

What a buffoon ---Now your desert ego is hurt and you are coming and telling me the worldly Pashtunwali, which has been interpreted and reinterpreted over the centuries which has no fixed written law in the stone that must not be changed and must be implemented in liter and spirit is the same in rigidity as the backward and retrogressive ways of your Yemanide ancestry---

Bravo---you and this Barakzai Abdali the disciple of Abdullah Aazm, Osama Bin Laden, and Aimen Alzawahiri are reviling in self-delusion for sure---At the same time Barakzai is writhing in jealousy being a loser in Afghan game where Karzai and other Afghan notables are calling the shot and building a nation while he is yearning for the return of the golden age of Mullah Omar where he turns out to be some worth (can provide medical services to the harem of Mullah Omar and harems of his other Arab buddies).

As for polygamous marriages what if Mullah Barakzai decides tomorrow he is gonna replenish his harem with some worldly hurris, how are you gonna prevent him based on religious injunctions? And you know there are no limits to Mullah lust (By this I don't mean Muslim scholars who are respected people).

Thanks for the nice exchanges though.

There is no desert ego here; this is just a fantasy you created an imaginary boogie man to cope with your feelings of failure and incompetence and how desperately you're trying to salvage a failed culture and failed tradition by giving it some glossy revamping in the name of pseudo-progressive banter.

What could possibly have been the "interpretation" to sell your daughter for some Walwar or give her in "Swara" to settle a dispute?!?!? There's no introspective narrative that would ever think such a thing is a good idea, this is clearly a product of long standing tradition which has been in Pashtunwali for hundreds of years with very little variation and change. Islam doesn't need to reinvent itself; because it's dynamics and ability to incorporate new information to apply is already enshrined within it.

There's not a shred of evidence in any Pashtun references that there was ever any change. Even the Yusufzais forced Bibi Mubaraka to marry Babur to settle a dispute, that was nearly 7 centuries ago. Shows that Pashtunwali has changed very little.

I don't know what Abdullah Azzam or Zawahiri have to do with me; I'm a Mu'tazilah and have no interest in Wahhabist/Salafist ideas; You don't need to be a Wahhabi to know that Pashtun culture is riddled with ridiculous practices; Even Secular Westerners call Pashtunwali garbage becase they mock its tribalistic mentality. All tribalistic rules are archaic and useless.

Pashtunwali is saturated with garbage and always has been and there's no reinterpretation for that. The fact you have to try to reinvent it to make it seem more pleasing to the modern eye shows it was garbage to begin with.

[Toramana]

There is no desert ego here; this is just a fantasy you created an imaginary boogie man to cope with your feelings of failure and incompetence and how desperately you're trying to salvage a failed culture and failed tradition by giving it some glossy revamping in the name of pseudo-progressive banter.

What could possibly have been the "interpretation" to sell your daughter for some Walwar or give her in "Swara" to settle a dispute?!?!? There's no introspective narrative that would ever think such a thing is a good idea, this is clearly a product of long standing tradition which has been in Pashtunwali for hundreds of years with very little variation and change. Islam doesn't need to reinvent itself; because it's dynamics and ability to incorporate new information to apply is already enshrined within it.

There's not a shred of evidence in any Pashtun references that there was ever any change. Even the Yusufzais forced Bibi Mubaraka to marry Babur to settle a dispute, that was nearly 7 centuries ago. Shows that Pashtunwali has changed very little.

I don't know what Abdullah Azzam or Zawahiri have to do with me; I'm a Mu'tazilah and have no interest in Wahhabist/Salafist ideas; You don't need to be a Wahhabi to know that Pashtun culture is riddled with ridiculous practices; Even Secular Westerners call Pashtunwali garbage becase they mock its tribalistic mentality. All tribalistic rules are archaic and useless.

Pashtunwali is saturated with garbage and always has been and there's no reinterpretation for that. The fact you have to try to reinvent it to make it seem more pleasing to the modern eye shows it was garbage to begin with.

Sure, I will not give my daughter or sister or whoever in walwar or polygamous marriage---My interpretation of Pashtunwali and Islam is modernist and based on human dignity and equality --- So, she would be a free woman making her own decision in every conceivable matter of life --- Nor she would ever allow it to be reduced to being one half of a man---

Don''t believe in archaic, redundant despicable practices whatever its source---

Now what are you goona say to Maulana Barakzai Saib who says it is ok a woman having half of a man's worth?

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Nice try crypto atheist ikhwani. I never commented on the 2 to 1 ratio except to show PF colleagues your attempt to attack Surah baqarah. Now please address that. Now go find mullah Omar and fight him so that a Canadian doesn't have to be your proxie.

Sure, I will not give my daughter or sister or whoever in walwar or polygamous marriage---My interpretation of Pashtunwali and Islam is modernist and based on human dignity and equality --- So, she would be a free woman making her own decision in every conceivable matter of life --- Nor she would ever allow it to be reduced to being one half of a man---

Don''t believe in archaic, redundant despicable practices whatever its source---

Now what are you goona say to Maulana Barakzai Saib who says it is ok a woman having half of a man's worth?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Sure, I will not give my daughter or sister or whoever in walwar or polygamous marriage---My interpretation of Pashtunwali and Islam is modernist and based on human dignity and equality --- So, she would be a free woman making her own decision in every conceivable matter of life --- Nor she would ever allow it to be reduced to being one half of a man---

Don''t believe in archaic, redundant despicable practices whatever its source---

Now what are you goona say to Maulana Barakzai Saib who says it is ok a woman having half of a man's worth?

Your interpretation of Pashtunwali? well then that's great; but then just give up Pashtunwali entirely; why hold on to such an archaic set of practices that have no possibility of salvaging.

Why do you keep repeating this 1/2 of a man stuff? ....Firstly it is false; secondly even if we agree it is true 1/2 of a man is better than ZERO percentage of a man in Pashtunwali.

[Badlun]

I am convinced now that as no body with whatever knowledge or argument cannot make 2+2=5 similarly after reading and reading the posts of RTR I can see that he cannot prove that how two women can be equaled to one man, how one man can have multiple wives, how to justify beating of wives, how by saying few words a woman is divorced but a woman for divorce has to go through a long legal process and many other questions I raised above

Not only this how can one justify that a woman to prove adultery has to bring 4 witnesses who have seen her with clear penetration while there is no punishment for sodomy or rape! A man does not have this requirement in case of adultery.

On paintings of photographs then it means that the hadith was changed which stops photography of living objects. If this can be reformed then why we cannot reform other acts. If we have to follow the prophet in all his acts(Sunna) then we also have to send out all pictures from our home and have to shun all interest in all material things! What an ascetic approach it is!


I would like to know few names of globally known Muslim women please. Because of my ignorance I could not get any name. Only in 1400 years you can refer to one Treasurer that also without any reference.

Women were generally not involved in those fields at that time but now they are involved so you agree that the injunctions should be changed according to the modern time?

I will admit openly that I am COMPLETELY WRONG if you say that these verses are NOT Injunctions at all but merely recommendations based on circumstances dealing with available people who were competent in certain types of work. I totally agree with you that all such verses are just recommendations not obligatory and this way we both reach to the same conclusion. This will be great as we cannot change Quran but by declaring all such verses about polygamy, veil, evidence, inheritance etc have a context, were only for that special time, not for all the times and are advisory not part of obligatory religion then the issue is totally resolved and I am with you.

If Yasmeen thanked your post and not mine does not matter. If I write what is liked by Yasmeen then she will also thank me . Many members also thank me as I have received hundreds of thanks but by God I am not searching for thanks in this forum. My dream is for the millions of Pashtuns and Muslims to see them developed and happy . My approach is against majority of forum members and many Pashtuns/Muslims but one day they will realize that my approach has some merit.

Very strange that a man who does not help his wive's sexual needs will be accountable for it on judgment day but angels curse on woman in this world!

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You're grasping for straws; Angels cursing someone is something is a metaphysical event, just like man being held accountable for his actions will also be a metaphysical event.Your argument is devoid of logic and rationality and is merely a blind emotional reaction. The issue of 4 witnesses to prove she was raped is a Pakistani/South and Pashtun outlook; not the outlook of SHari'ah

I never said "All Verses" of the Qur'an are contextual and subject to change; I said that CERTAIN verses DEPENDING on SEVERAL factors; of all those factors are not there then we cannot just arbitrarily dictate which ones consider hukm and which ones are nasiha. There is a special Guideline we must follow. You're just saying EVERY verse that deals with a certain topic we just re-evaluate. No this is not what I a advocating; we look at each verse and we have to determine which ones are and which ones are not.. This requires knowledge of Islamic History and Hadiths too. The reason is because one reason we know that the verse about 2 women and 1 man testimony has direct examples in Hadith and Islamic History.


If you want to find women of Islam google "Historical MUslim Women"

here is one I found; you can find others for yourself.

History's famous Muslim women scholars, philanthropists, and rulers - Dallas Islam | Examiner.com

[khushal]

So Imran Khan who lives in a mansion is mocked and ignored in society? The guy speaks Urdu, divorced his wife, had a child out of wedlock and still hundreds and thousands of Pashtuns cozy up to him.

See how little you know about Afghanistan because you have never been there. It only really is applied in pashtunland that have no authority in their respective area ie court system or other enforcement agencies. Imran Khan is what he is because of his wealth and connection to power brokers, he could not last in rural pashtunland, besides that he is not really considered pashtun by those pashtuns that live in those areas.

[khushal]

Again I think that if we take Pashtun (well not only Pashtun) society, you are wrong. Men tend to protect themselves because of "what family/relatives/ society will say if they do not. They know that if they won't follow rules they will be excluded out of their social group. For the same reasons in extrememe cases both parents, man and woman kill their daughters etc/. I would say that there is not reallly the personal sense of honour which leads to such acts. Its more because of collective expectations and social control.

Well of course its societies expectation. Society's expectation is what defines the culture. If society expects the man to defend "namos" then he will act accordingly other wise society will shun/punish an individual if he does not do what society expects of him. That goes for all societies. Filicide is also common all over the world in all societies but for different reason.
Crime of parents killing their kids is not so uncommon | StarTribune.com

Judging from that study, I doubt pashunwali actually endorses Filicide. There are many people that do things that are against cultural norms, but 99.99% are not murdered for it. Filicide happens less in Afghanistan than it does in the west. You cant judge blame that on .01% of it on pashtunwali.

In Pashto, a divorcee is not the real meaning of a talaqi. A talaqi is rather someone whose wife has a right to sleep sleep with another man. And this is the most important aspect.
Islam sanctiones divorces and I think there could be logic behind.

Yes I know, divorce is not recognized in Pashtunwali. Catholicism didn't recognize divorce until recently. You have to give it time for it to evolve.

What I am going to say now, it is more a general remark, not only about Pashtuns. In fact such situations happens everywhere. But the attitude towards such situations can vary in different cultures.
For the sake of kids... Do you really think that this is always the best thing for kids? I do not. Of course it is the best when kids can grow in a happy family but sometimes it does not happen. Do you think that kids who grow in a family where they can see how father tortures their mother? Many studies shows that kids reproduce patterns they witnessed at their homes. So what such kids will learn? That a beaten woman has to suffer silently because it is her sarnawesht. A boy will learn that with time he can beat her mother and wife without any consequences.
What with kids who are regularly beaten by parents?
Is this really for the sake of kids? Sometimes divorce is the best solution, for the sake of kids and their future life.

I am not endorsing this, I am only trying to explain it. Change happens in the urban settings first and then its transferred to the rurals and it happens slowly. It will take many generations.

[khushal]

aren't those concepts you classify as compassion, behaviours that are said to gain a reward from allah in the afterlife?

I thought it was a reward for it in this life. Isnt compassion its own reward.

the liberalisation for women in the west has not ENDED and has hardly started in the east. so i don't know what you are on about there.

What are you talking about, it has not started in the east? The east have had more female head of states than the west

[khushal]

You're essentially analogizing Pashtun marriages with rape which is more or less what I have been arguing. It's all about control and the ego of domination involved, these ideas like namos and ghairat that Pashtunwali promotes (not what Islam promotes) are not about social welfare or "caring for others as one's self", but domination and control at all costs


Speaking only for myself, I'm not advocating this cycle of self destructive impulses that spurs out of erratic and misguided notions of freedom which is mainstay in the West. I didn't concur with Faye that patriarchy and male domination were at the core here because those things are evolutionary outcomes. However what Pashtuns do can no longer be said to be a product of evolution but very self defeating process. I'm talking about women's welfare where their best interests are allowed to surface. Where they can make decisions on their destiny and not be hoarded or bartered off like a donkey. WHere they can get educated, acquire their own resources and have recourse to maintain security against hostile forces. This doesn't mean lacking rules or standards of what is right and wrong. The system Pashtuns currently have clearly doesn't work for Pashtuns as we can see the disastrous consequences it has. Bacha Bazi in Pashtun culture is linked to the marriage practices of Pashtuns; men who don't end up having the chance to marry end up seeking interest in other males as a "surrogate". To say this is "merely a minority" is false as it has been confirmed by studies on the matter that it is extremely frequent.

There's a Taoist saying, a tree that sways so easily in the wind will fall over, but a tree that refuses to bend, will break. That describes the current state of Pashtuns.

you've nailed your own coffin here.

I keep asking you for evidence of your claims but you cant provide none and go on a rant. Why are you ignoring my questions. Stop talking from your arse and back up your claims.

[khushal]

one of the key tenants of our people is "zaar, zameen, zaan" and this has defined Pashtuns for centuries. .

These are persian words and from what I have read, it has been taken from persian poetry to describe afghans for what they fight over. The Brits inherited the persian description of afghans.
The real tenants are:
badal (revenge),
ghayrat/nang (self-respect, chivalry or bravery),
melmastia/nanawati (hospitality/asylum),
purdah (gender separation),
namus (pride or defence of honour)
jirga (decision making assembly)

[RevolutionThroughReason]

See how little you know about Afghanistan because you have never been there. It only really is applied in pashtunland that have no authority in their respective area ie court system or other enforcement agencies. Imran Khan is what he is because of his wealth and connection to power brokers, he could not last in rural pashtunland, besides that he is not really considered pashtun by those pashtuns that live in those areas.

Isn't Northern Pakistan supposedly "Pashtunland" ......don't bull that "how little you know"there are Pashtun tribes in Pakistan and you yourself consider tham Afghans. Yet Imran Khan is embraced by his Khattak clan with open arms and celebrated in the tribal belt. where they "live by their own court system"

If anything this demonstrates how little you know about Afghanistan and Pashtuns; Imran Khan is proof your claim is bogus


explains why you just make stuff up as you go along

[RevolutionThroughReason]

These are persian words and from what I have read, it has been taken from persian poetry to describe afghans for what they fight over. The Brits inherited the persian description of afghans.
The real tenants are:
badal (revenge),
ghayrat/nang (self-respect, chivalry or bravery),
melmastia/nanawati (hospitality/asylum),
purdah (gender separation),
namus (pride or defence of honour)
jirga (decision making assembly)

Purdah is an Urdu word ...ghairat and namus are both arabic words .....so your argument doesn't hold

please show us these poems of the Persians that describe afghans this way.

[khushal]

Purdah is an Urdu word ...ghairat and namus are both arabic words .....so your argument doesn't hold

please show us these poems of the Persians that describe afghans this way.

Sure it does, There are no pashtun that talks about zar, zameen, zan. They talk about the tenants I described. Go to any rural pashtun and ask them if the tenants they follow is zar, zameen, zan or what I said.

By the way purdah is persian, not urdu. There is no such thing as an urdu word. urdu is derived from farsi, arbabic and the local languages of south and central asia, but thats beside the point.