Pashtun system of marriage has benefits...

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Your lacking understanding of how this is done. Its given to the family that the girl is a member of and pashtuns do things as a family, its not america where everyone is independent and indvidual choice, pashtuns decide everything as a family because most decisions effect the whole family. The money is intended to be spent on the girl and her wedding. Whats so unislamic about that. Mahr is seperate, while this is decided before the engagement, mahr is decided during the vows. Your post is mostly ramblings and venting out and cant really explain how its unislamic and in reality its more in line with islamic values as far as putting values on women as long as its practiced the way it was intended. Its basically a system thats puts the financial burden on the grooms family vs the brides family which is the way it should be otherwie you will have the problem you have in India.

I am sorry to say you have lost this onebecause you did not think ahead as usual. Study hard and think ahead for the next argument.

Walwar is needed to spend on the girl and her wedding? Islam forbids extravagance, so there's no need for walwar, simple weddings are sufficient for Muslims. In Fact in the times of the Prophet (saw) they just had simple ceremonies; Not infllated flashy wedding's; these are all backwards customs inherited from Ancient Hindus and Zoroastrians. not Islam.

If it's to spend on the girl then it's the PARENTS who must pay for it, not her husband; the husband to spend on the bride is what the MAHR is for, the mahr is a GIFT TO THE GIRL for HER BENEFIT, it goes directlu to HER, not by way of the family; there's no need to give it to her family. Giving Any money to her family for any reason is a corrupt unislamic custom so the "Spending on the wedding excuse and the girl" is bogus. That's why it is unislamic; because in reality it's to take money as a price for marriage to the father/next of male kin since all those reasons are irrelevant.

You can't be MORE in line with Islamic values when you're GOING outside the boundaries of islam. That's a fraudulent justification And putting monetary value on women; which after discrediting all your excuses; is what walwar would be is degrading women into prostitution; so that isn't respecting or protecting women at all; it's abuse of women.

What other studying do I need to accept your fraudulent argument? You just make everything up as you go along and nothing you say has any evidence or references which we can find that presents objective confirmation of your claims. It would be like trying to chase after somehing that doesn't exists.

Sorry you can't study something that isn't real to begin with.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Rivalry over resources ie land is a human trait. All over the world you see feuds and disputes over inheritence.

Its the same in pashtuns where the wife chooses to give it to her husband, but almost always the wife gives it to her husband after all she belongs to that family and she wants her property to be passed down to her kids. Its only natural. My grandmother was an only child that had inherited alot of land in our village and she gave all her property to her husband which in turn was passed down to her sons. Who else is she going to give it to? her cousins? come on, think man, think. You know very little of human trait.

Yes and Pashtun culture's inheritance customs only exacerbate that since brothers will keep either fighting each other for either an inadequate share or to gain the share of the brother. Pashtunwali has taken the fight over resources to a new level and erupted into Intra and Inter family feuds on that account.

Almost always she gives it to her husband? If she CHOOSES to do so that is HER RIGHT under Islam and there's not a damn thing any of her family members can do about it; BUT under Islamic Law a Pashtun Patriarch is OBLIGATED to give her inheritance REGARDLESS of what she intends. If she's coerced by her husband, then her HUSBAND is at fault and she can petition against him; The reason ANY of this is an issue in the first place is because Pashtuns LACK an Islamic Society; more evidence that Pashtunwali and Pashtun culture runs contrary to Islam in MOST major aspects.

Islam grants rights and liberties to women which Pashtuns deny women

[khushal]

Your arguments are all strawman fallacies. Your not fooling anyone. Your obsession with trying to be right all the time is your weakness.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Nice try Khushal but that doesn't even make sense what so ever ....you have nothing meritable to rebut my statement. As per usual.

[khushal]

your defending against your own manufactured arguments. I never equated pashtunwali with Islam nor does pashtunwali promote extravagant weddings nor does it promote the prevention of daughters to get their rightful inheritance. Your claims have been refuted, the only thing you have left is to manufacture fraudulent arguments that you yourself is arguing against.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Which argument did I manufacture? did you not claim that walwar was some special deposit for family expenses for the girl in the wedding process and the like? I debunked that

contrary to your straw man excuse, what you're doing now is back peddling ....hardcore.

[khushal]

I listed them in my previous post. You did not debunk anything, you just manufactured an argument by saying that extravagant weddings are unislamic which pashtunwali does not promote but if one does want an extravagant wedding, then pashtunwali protects the bride family from financial burden or any other harm by putting the financial burden on the groom. How is that unislamic. Welwar basically protects the girls from what your maternal ancestors did and what is happening in India.
Your saying things that have nothing to do with the argument, so stop the strawman fallacies and man up.

Also bring forth evidence about your pedestry claims. pashtunwali does not condone this in any way and it is not widespread in afghanistan as you claim.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well then why else would they need a walwar for a wedding? Islamic weddings literally COST NOTHING. For the walimah the husband's father buys the lambs. Basically any possible excuse for a walwar has no place so that means your only possible justification is an extravagant wedding. That's not a straw man that is deductive reasonig; which has in fact debunks your FABRICATED UNSUPPORTED excuses in some failed attempt to make Pashtunwali seem compatible with Islam when they aren't I didn't even need to debunk it on that account. but I did. you're just in denial.

[faye]

Marriage in Islam: Nikah

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Thank you Faye; this essentially shatters ALL of Khushal's claims from an Islamic perspective.


by Mohammad Mazhar Hussaini
Mutual Agreement of Bride and Groom

Marriage (nikah) is a solemn and sacred social contract between bride and groom. This contract is a strong covenant (mithaqun Ghalithun) as expressed in Quran 4:21). The marriage contract in Islam is not a sacrament. It is revocable.

Both parties mutually agree and enter into this contract. Both bride and groom have the liberty to define various terms and conditions of their liking and make them a part of this contract.

Mahr

The marriage-gift (Mahr) is a divine injunction. The giving of mahr to the bride by the groom is an essential part of the contract. (See it says right here TO THE BRIDE, not the BRIDE'S FATHER)

'And give the women (on marriage) their mahr as a (nikah) free gift" (Quran 4:4) (Once again GIVE THE WOMAN their Mahr, not GIVE THEIR FATHERS)

Mahr is a token commitment of the husband's responsibility and may be paid in cash, property or movable objects to the bride herself. The amount of mahr is not legally specified, however, moderation according to the existing social norm is recommended. The mahr may be paid immediately to the bride at the time of marriage, or deferred to a later date, or a combination of both. The deferred mahr however, falls due in case of death or divorce.

One matrimonial party expresses 'ijab" willing consent to enter into marriage and the other party expresses 'qubul" acceptance of the responsibility in the assembly of marriage ceremony. The contract is written and signed by the bride and the groom and their two respective witnesses. This written marriage contract ("Aqd-Nikah) is then announced publicly.

Sermon

The assembly of nikah is addressed with a marriage sermon (khutba-tun-nikah) by the Muslim officiating the marriage. In marriage societies, customarily, a state appointed Muslim judge (Qadi) officiates the nikah ceremony and keeps the record of the marriage contract. However any trust worthy practicing Muslim can conduct the nikah ceremony, as Islam does not advocate priesthood. The documents of marriage contract/certificate are filed with the mosque (masjid) and local government for record.

Prophet Muhammad (S) made it his tradition (sunnah) to have marriage sermon delivered in the assembly to solemnize the marriage. The sermon invites the bride and the groom, as well as the participating guests in the assembly to a life of piety, mutual love, kindness, and social responsibility.

The Khutbah-tun-Nikah begins with the praise of Allah. His help and guidance is sought. The Muslim confession of faith that 'There is none worthy of worship except Allah and Muhammad is His servant and messenger" is declared. The three Quranic verses (Quran 4:1, 3:102, 33:70-71) and one Prophetic saying (hadith) form the main text of the marriage. This hadith is:

'By Allah! Among all of you I am the most God-fearing, and among you all, I am the supermost to save myself from the wrath of Allah, yet my state is that I observe prayer and sleep too. I observe fast and suspend observing them; I marry woman also. And he who turns away from my Sunnah has no relation with me". (Bukhari)

The Muslim officiating the marriage ceremony concludes the ceremony with prayer (Dua) for bride, groom, their respective families, the local Muslim community, and the Muslim community at large (Ummah)

Marriage (nikah) is considered as an act of worship (ibadah). It is virtuous to conduct it in a Mosque keeping the ceremony simple. The marriage ceremony is a social as well as a religious activity. Islam advocates simplicity in ceremonies and celebrations.

Prophet Muhammad (S) considered simple weddings the best weddings:

'The best wedding is that upon which the least trouble and expense is bestowed". (Mishkat)
(all this demonstrates that there is little cost in an Islamic Wedding...again NO Need for a Walwar)

Primary Requirements
1) Mutual agreement (Ijab-O-Qubul) by the bride and the groom
2) Two adult and sane witnesses
3) Mahr (marriage-gift) to be paid by the groom to the bride either immediately (muajjal) or deferred (muakhkhar), or a combination of both
Secondary Requirements
1) Legal guardian (wakeel) representing the bride
2) Written marriage contract ("Aqd-Nikah) signed by the bride and the groom and witnesses by two adult and sane witnesses
3) Qadi (State appointed Muslim judge) or Ma'zoon (a responsible person officiating the marriage ceremony)
4) Khutba-tun-Nikah to solemnize the marriage

The Marriage Banquet (Walima)

After the consummation of the marriage, the groom holds a banquet called a walima. The relatives, neighbors, and friends are invited in order to make them aware of the marriage. Both rich and poor of the family and community are invited to the marriage feasts.

(the groom gives the walima so why would her parents need a walwar?!?!?!? DEBUNKED!)


Prophet Muhammad (S) said:

'The worst of the feasts are those marriage feasts to which the rich are invited and the poor are left out". (Mishkat)

It is recommended that Muslims attend marriage ceremonies and marriage feasts upon invitation.

Prophet Muhammad (S) said:

"...and he who refuses to accept an invitation to a marriage feast, verily disobeys Allah and His Prophet". (Ahmad & Abu Dawood)

[khushal]

You have debunked nothing. Your guilty of strawman fallacies.
I keep asking you what so unislamic or immoral about welwar.
You keep posting away about Islam without answering the question, where in Islam does it say that welwar is haram. We know its not required in Islam but is it forbidden to buy clothes or jewelry for the bride, is it forbidden for the bride to have her own celebration with the grooms finances. Be intellectually honest about it.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

You're using the "fallacy" fallacy; claiming everything and anything is a fallacy when your reasons as to why were themselves debunked ; you kept changing goal posts and adding new justfications for walwar and each justification was shown to be nonsense. That's what debunk implies; You're just what they call having trouble coping. Pashtun culture is a contradiction to Islam and there's no better example than how marriages operate.

On a side note: people who are Pashtuns will now have to choose whether they want to follow Islam and be Muslims or Pashtun culture and oppose Islam; This lie that Pashtunwali blends with Islam is no longer tenable.

[یاسمینه]

I am reading your posts and I am more and more confused.

In my other posts in this tread I quoted excerpt on the financial aspects of marriage among Pashtuns.

"The brideprice is divided into three parts:
(a) An endowment in jewellery given by the husband's family to the bride (mahr). Though this becomes her property, it is not lost to the husband, since the wife makes him a gift of it after the consummation of the marriage. If as sometimes happens, the jewellery has been borrowed for the occasion, he promptly returns it to the rightful owners. Otherwise, the mahr becomes the property of the joint household.

(b) Expenses for the wedding and equipment if the new home (waade depara); mainly foodstuf, with bedding and kitchen equipment.

(c) Outright payment for the girl (de njeley de sar rupey - money for the girl's head)."

No one denied that so I assume that this description is close to the reality.

Now my question: when you discuss the dowry, you use the word walwar (which literally means dowry). Does this word (walwar) refers to one of these three components (if so, to which one) or is it rather general category for dowry construed as financial expenses related to marriage?

[RevolutionThroughReason]

We know its not required in Islam but is it forbidden to buy clothes or jewelry for the bride, is it forbidden for the bride to have her own celebration with the grooms finances. Be intellectually honest about it.

YES it's illegal; ... you're mixing backwards Ancient Hinduism with Islam. ANything else that happens whether it's giving her jewelry, having a special party for the bride is between the GROOM and BRIDE, not the groom her Beghairat Father and the bride. The Groom and Bride ALONE decide if any extra money is to be given. It's the groom and bride ALONE that decides if she needs an extra party. NO excuse for Walwar at all! That's why Walwar is harram her father or male relatives aren't supposed to be involved in any of that AT ALL.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I am reading your posts and I am more and more confused.

In my other posts in this tread I quoted excerpt on the financial aspects of marriage among Pashtuns.

"The brideprice is divided into three parts:
(a) An endowment in jewellery given by the husband's family to the bride (mahr). Though this becomes her property, it is not lost to the husband, since the wife makes him a gift of it after the consummation of the marriage. If as sometimes happens, the jewellery has been borrowed for the occasion, he promptly returns it to the rightful owners. Otherwise, the mahr becomes the property of the joint household.

(b) Expenses for the wedding and equipment if the new home (waade depara); mainly foodstuf, with bedding and kitchen equipment.

(c) Outright payment for the girl (de njeley de sar rupey - money for the girl's head)."

No one denied that so I assume that this description is close to the reality.

Now my question: when you discuss the dowry, you use the word walwar (which literally means dowry). Does this word (walwar) refers to one of these three components (if so, to which one) or is it rather general category for dowry construed as financial expenses related to marriage?

Khushal keeps fabricating excuses that could be why.

He says that Walwar is for the family to buy jewelry this quotation clearly proves him wrong.