Pashtun system of marriage has benefits...

[khushal]

I would disagree; Our culture AT ONE TIME promoted that; but that idea has become so twisted and corrupted that they've become self destructive now and are acting in ways which in fact contravene their survival. You can't survive without breeding right?" Killing or adversely affecting the well being of your women will affect breeding.

Maybe it's time Pashtuns take a good hard look at themselves?

I hear stories in the western media but I dont see it back home. Sure there is abuse here and there but that exists everywhere. From the area I am from, if a woman is being abused, the woman's family intervenes and sometimes taken back to her fathers home. If a woman is killed, the womans family would go after the perpatrator. Not to say that the stories in the media arent true but the abuse of woman happens everywhere. 90% of police calls are domistic issues where a husband is beating the wife or a boyfriend is beating the girlfriend. Rape in America happens once every two minutes.

But the status of women rights in afghanistan has gone downhill since the invasion. What can people do to change the status when the leaders are too corrupt to change anything. What has pakistan done which is a much stabler country, their leaders are as corrupt as Afghanistans.

[faye]

i agree with you on the issue that war, homelessness and poverty due to drought etc, has stressed the people of afghanistan and relationships are suffering.
40 years of war must have had a devastating effect on the people there and created much insecurity.

[khushal]

khushal, re"animals vs human behaviour....sure they do. being the most financially secure, in a world where money equals power, is the equivalent of being the strongest and the best provider.

That is true but RTR was talking about physical power as a young man should be able to attract more females than an older man who is physically weak.Womenin general are seaking a provider for themselves and their children.
Back in my village, there is this girl who was 20 when she got married. Two men proposed to her, a 25 year old man and a man who was 42 years old. She choose the 42 year old and was asked why, she said what does the 25 year old have, I will live like a slave and bear children who will die of sickness because he could not provide. The older man was well off financially. Who are we to decide what is best for her. That is her choice.

Also Faye most of these girls back home are scared that most of these young men are drug addicts, the older ones are wiser and know what drugs can do to a person. RTR does not know what he is talking about, he thinks Afghanistan is like America.

[khushal]

i agree with you on the issue that war, homelessness and poverty due to drought etc, has stressed the people of afghanistan and relationships are suffering.
40 years of war must have had a devastating effect on the people there and created much insecurity.

Most husbands work in one area of the country and leave their wife on the opposite side. Some work outside the country ie pakistan, UAE and other gulf countries and even India. The wife is left behind with the in laws and how many people do you know that gets along with their in laws. Another custom that exists is that extended families live together for economic reasons and there is much drama in those households that put much strain on relationships.

[faye]

lol, most women are attracted to younger men? not when they are young, they aren't.

if women are unable to choose a partner for their mutual attraction and love, then more than likely they will choose the best provider, especially in a place where the women are not educated and have little control over their lives.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Your statement is a red herring. Your comparing animals with humans. In human society, the most viable one is not the one who is physically strong, it is the one who controls the most resources. Wheather we are talking about western or eastern societies, the one with the most resources can attract the most viable mates, wheather he is physically handicapped or infertile, females will flock to him in droves. Not only females but other males will attach themeslves to him like leeches or parasites feeding off of him. Their survivability increases if they do so.

We live in a society where people will almost do anything for money. Animals dont behave in such way.

humans ARE animals LOL and no I'm comparing primates with humans because humans are PRIMATES. And furthermore I'm relating Human Adaptations with Human behavior. Sorry you just can't justify Pashtun culture on any scientific standard what so ever.

Resources is a "broad" term; having more "monetary" resources doesn't mean automatically you have more qualitative resources. There are women in the west who CHOOSE, keyword CHOOSE not forced against their will and raped as in Pashtun culture; but they make this choice because all their other necessities have already been met or they're not much in need for it or they have some surrogate source to facilitate it. The Analogy of Pashtuns doesn't jive her because women amongst Pashtuns don't generally have that type of compensation; although it is well known for Pashtun women in villages to often have affairs with younger men because their husbands can no longer can perform (due to old age) , the women who do this are at great risk. Where as in the West, that risk factor doesn't play as strong a role. So a rich wealthy husband with a younger male liason would suffice for many of these "Gold Digger " types who seem to match your hypothesis.

But the bottom line is ; your argument is just a weak and unfactual justification for the Pashtun Rape-Culture that is enshrined within it. Unfactual in that it tries to draw analogy/comparison with situations where women can choose partners which suit their best interest vs. women being forced to take partners against their best interest.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I hear stories in the western media but I dont see it back home. Sure there is abuse here and there but that exists everywhere. From the area I am from, if a woman is being abused, the woman's family intervenes and sometimes taken back to her fathers home. If a woman is killed, the womans family would go after the perpatrator. Not to say that the stories in the media arent true but the abuse of woman happens everywhere. 90% of police calls are domistic issues where a husband is beating the wife or a boyfriend is beating the girlfriend. Rape in America happens once every two minutes.

But the status of women rights in afghanistan has gone downhill since the invasion. What can people do to change the status when the leaders are too corrupt to change anything. What has pakistan done which is a much stabler country, their leaders are as corrupt as Afghanistans.

Well you've never actually been back home; The status of women are always downhill before and after the invasion; Taliban kidnapped and raped women, and were involved in Human Trafficking in abundance. I don't see what Pakistan has done? Your argument was that war and poverty are the cause; War and Poverty might enable but it is the culture itself that is the cause. It's the attitudes of men that see women as property as things to control not loved one's whose well being they must guard.


Rape happens in America but not culturally or socially sanctioned at least not openly. Rape in Afghanistan is apart of the culture itself. Look at the Taliban to punish its enemies they raped women. Likewise with the Tajiks and Hazara Militias, to retaliate against the Taliban, raped women. Informed consent is not seen as mandatory customary Afghan marriages; any attempt to require it has been argued by individuals like yourself as imposing foreign influence on Afghans"; thus the Afghan culture caters to rape; it is a rape culture. If in America a woman is raped every two minutes (which is actually impossible); then in Afghanistan a woman is raped every moment; how? Because any marital relation which is derived from a marriage without informed consent of the woman, will be rape. Since lacking informed consent is predominant in Afghan marriages, then most Afghan women are victims of rape. Just because it's dressed up in false-moral posturing of a (coerced) marriage doesn't make it any less of a rape.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

your right, this does exist. I have talked most of my family members that live back home out of it. The funny thing is that the girls in those families curse me because they say they are being given up for free. They say that it means that their families love them less if they are given up for free.

well then you agree, this is how Pashtunwali contradicts Islam on a very important issue, and that this contradicts morality; it is also very "benamous". Anyone who takes even a penny for a man to marry his daughter is n effect prostituting her.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

lol, most women are attracted to younger men? not when they are young, they aren't.

if women are unable to choose a partner for their mutual attraction and love, then more than likely they will choose the best provider, especially in a place where the women are not educated and have little control over their lives.

Most women aren't attracted to "younger" men per say, but not drastically older men. 14 year olds aren't attracted to 60 year olds. I think women are attracted to slightly to moderately older men; men who are more matured but still young enough to be viable over all. Not a Viagra popping Mashar lol

[khushal]

humans ARE animals LOL and no I'm comparing primates with humans because humans are PRIMATES. And furthermore I'm relating Human Adaptations with Human behavior. Sorry you just can't justify Pashtun culture on any scientific standard what so ever.

Resources is a "broad" term; having more "monetary" resources doesn't mean automatically you have more qualitative resources. There are women in the west who CHOOSE, keyword CHOOSE not forced against their will and raped as in Pashtun culture; but they make this choice because all their other necessities have already been met or they're not much in need for it or they have some surrogate source to facilitate it. The Analogy of Pashtuns doesn't jive her because women amongst Pashtuns don't generally have that type of compensation; although it is well known for Pashtun women in villages to often have affairs with younger men because their husbands can no longer can perform (due to old age) , the women who do this are at great risk. Where as in the West, that risk factor doesn't play as strong a role. So a rich wealthy husband with a younger male liason would suffice for many of these "Gold Digger " types who seem to match your hypothesis.

But the bottom line is ; your argument is just a weak and unfactual justification for the Pashtun Rape-Culture that is enshrined within it. Unfactual in that it tries to draw analogy/comparison with situations where women can choose partners which suit their best interest vs. women being forced to take partners against their best interest.

Humans maybe animals in the scientific sense but as far as creating civilization where a handicapped member can aquire more resources than 80% of the group, they differ by a large margin which is what the topic is about.

But as far as women in the West are concerned where they have more choices, it is because the west has aquired more resouces, again it plays into my argument. If you look at China and India, those countries are getting richer and its people are aquiring more resources = more choices.
I am talking about globally, a woman in Afghanistan who is a millionaire would have more control and choices than a woman in america who is a street hooker. Just because the woman is living in america does not automatically make her a person with more choices. If you go to the local level, a woman in kabul will generally have more choices that a woman in the rural area because there are more resources and services in the city. Resouces is the big variable and I have told you many times that economics play the biggest role in society and you still fail to see that. Culture evolves when econmics evolve in that society.

The rest of your statement is your own opinion with nothing to back it up.

[khushal]

well then you agree, this is how Pashtunwali contradicts Islam on a very important issue, and that this contradicts morality; it is also very "benamous". Anyone who takes even a penny for a man to marry his daughter is n effect prostituting her.

I doubt this is pashtunwali because people have a choice to do this. Pashtunwali makes things mandatory, this is not mandatory. Besides the tajiks and hazaras and baloch practice this as well, I have friends from Iran and the Arab world who also have this practice. You are being intentionally intellectually dishonest which is a sign of desperation.
Calling it prostitution is going to the extreme, reread my original post as to why this came to be.

[khushal]

Well you've never actually been back home; The status of women are always downhill before and after the invasion; Taliban kidnapped and raped women, and were involved in Human Trafficking in abundance. I don't see what Pakistan has done? Your argument was that war and poverty are the cause; War and Poverty might enable but it is the culture itself that is the cause. It's the attitudes of men that see women as property as things to control not loved one's whose well being they must guard.

your the one who has never been there, you have only read about it, its the reason you dont know what your talking about. According to Malalai Joya who also was raised there, the status of womens rights actually have gone down hill after the invasion which confirms that war and poverty is a huge factor.
http://www.malalaijoya.com/dcmj/joya...-the-fire.html

Rape happens in America but not culturally or socially sanctioned at least not openly. Rape in Afghanistan is apart of the culture itself. Look at the Taliban to punish its enemies they raped women. Likewise with the Tajiks and Hazara Militias, to retaliate against the Taliban, raped women. Informed consent is not seen as mandatory customary Afghan marriages; any attempt to require it has been argued by individuals like yourself as imposing foreign influence on Afghans"; thus the Afghan culture caters to rape; it is a rape culture. If in America a woman is raped every two minutes (which is actually impossible); then in Afghanistan a woman is raped every moment; how? Because any marital relation which is derived from a marriage without informed consent of the woman, will be rape. Since lacking informed consent is predominant in Afghan marriages, then most Afghan women are victims of rape. Just because it's dressed up in false-moral posturing of a (coerced) marriage doesn't make it any less of a rape.

read this because you have falsely stated that it is impossible.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

I have not seen convincing evidence of the taliban raping but the militias did do it. The rest we have already argued and you lost sorry to say:
http://www.pashtunforums.com/develop...-forced-29571/

And by the way the poroof is in that thread that you have never been there. You beleive that afghan men holding hands is gay when in reality that is a cultural norm there. In America it is a cultural norm for one guy to slap another guy in the ass and that would be gay in afghanistan. It also shows how uneducated you are when it comes to social and cultural studies. Go read up on different cultural norms when it comes to societies. Go get some education.

[faye]

lol... at scimitar enlightening me about women.
i think he's been away at a feminist workshop and got in touch with his feminine side.
god bless his cotton sox.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

I doubt this is pashtunwali because people have a choice to do this. Pashtunwali makes things mandatory, this is not mandatory. Besides the tajiks and hazaras and baloch practice this as well, I have friends from Iran and the Arab world who also have this practice. You are being intentionally intellectually dishonest which is a sign of desperation.
Calling it prostitution is going to the extreme, reread my original post as to why this came to be.

Pashtunwali makes things mandatory? Not all of Pashtunwali are mandatories. many are just customs; the individuals can choose to do them if they want In Pashtunwali person doesn't "have to" do something like Teega, they choose to. So your statement doesn't dissuade the connection to Walwar to Pashtunwali.The fact is Walwar is enshrined in Pashtunwali; it's sanctioned , supported and accepted. It is not the Islamic Mahr but IS CONTRARY to Islamic Law.

I know why it came to be You were just parroting an explanation I gave for it over a year ago under ScimitarXEdge ; but the explanation doesn't apply now. Trying to scapegoat with an "ph hey my friends from Iran do it too" i.e a Tu Qoque type fallacy doesn't take the heat off of Pashtuns.

Now look at what prostitution is? It's the exchange of money/goods/services for the sake of sexual gratification; what is Walwar? Taking money to be able to marry a woman to legally have sex with her. I see the only difference here is the method.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

your the one who has never been there, you have only read about it, its the reason you dont know what your talking about. According to Malalai Joya who also was raised there, the status of womens rights actually have gone down hill after the invasion which confirms that war and poverty is a huge factor.
[URL="http://www.malalaijoya.com/dcmj/joya-in-media/108-the-us-pushed-us-from-the-frying-pan-to-the-fire.html"]

Malalai Joya is a very meritable activist; but and her arguments regarding the issue of women in afghanistan are valid. But Malalai Joya opposes talks with the Taliban calling them "misogynist terrorists" Which indicates she sees the Taliban's rule worse than the current situation; which of course isn't much better. Leading us to conclude that the problem is Pashtun culture. BUt Malalai says that situation has not CHANGED since the Taliban, not that they're worse "than" the Taliban , indicating that during the Taliban time they're as terrible as they are now.

http://rupeenews.com/2009/07/afghanistans-bravest-woman-malalai-joya-taliban-are-logistically-militarily-growing-stronger-as-each-day-dawns-afghan-women-and-men-are-not-liberated-at-all/

Malalai Joya, 28, told a conference at Sydney’s Darling Harbour today there has been “no fundamental change in the plight of Afghan people” since the US removed the Taliban five years ago.
“Afghan women and men are not ‘liberated’ at all,” Joya said. “When the entire nation is living under the shadow of gun and warlordism, how can its women enjoy very basic freedoms?”
Joya said the women’s rights situation was as “catastrophic” as it was under the Taliban.

read this because you have falsely stated that it is impossible.
http://www.rainn.org/get-information...sexual-assault

Well if you're basing your assessment on this then BOTH YOU AND RAINN have poor Math Skills. there's 3,600 minutes in a day X 365 days in a year = 1,314,000 minutes in a year. RAINN says and I quote "There are 525,600 minutes in a non-leap year". If there are 207,754 instances of SEXUAL ASSAULT, NOT RAPE, that's an instance of sexual assault every 6 minutes 20 seconds. now here's the FUN part.

If there's 207,754 sexual assaults every 6:20 minutes then that's 1315082:53 minutes; THAT's more minutes than in a year. So yes the numbers presented by RAINN are impossible. Because every two minutes means 1,314,000/2 = 657,000 NOT 207,754 which is reported by the U.S. department of Justice.

Now compare that to 70% of Afghan marriages are coerced. 14 million females in Afghanistan (approx) X 0.70 = 9,800,000 rapes . That means in Afghanistan, there are 7.45 rapes every minute. That means that in the same time 47 rapes in Afghanistan happen for every 1 sexual assault in America.

I have not seen convincing evidence of the taliban raping but the militias did do it. The rest we have already argued and you lost sorry to say:
http://www.pashtunforums.com/develop...-forced-29571/

Oh well JUST BECAUSE YOU haven't deemed the evidence convincing doesn't mean it's not so. You are NO authority on what makes evidence invalid. What matters is that these are accepted by qualified authorities and that it has been corroborated by numerous reports and testimonies. The weight of evidence is strong on this one.

If you were convinced by the RAINN statistics even though you didn't bother to double check their math then it's not hard to infer that your Idea of legitimate evidence and what legitimate is are probably different.

And by the way the poroof is in that thread that you have never been there. You beleive that afghan men holding hands is gay when in reality that is a cultural norm there. In America it is a cultural norm for one guy to slap another guy in the ass and that would be gay in afghanistan. It also shows how uneducated you are when it comes to social and cultural studies. Go read up on different cultural norms when it comes to societies. Go get some education.

You're running on a tangent now; you have no credibility in any of these topics. Pederasty is a cultural norm in Afghanistan too and that's very blatantly gay. So you aren't really refuting anything here; just getting high strung and diverting the subject to defend your failed culture.