Pashtun system of marriage has benefits...

[khushal]

what benefits?? can someone point out a few mentioned from the last few pages??

Our culture promotes the survival of the family as the most important aspect in society. The seperation of the family unit is regarded as the most dangerous threat to life.

[DaZahroJaam.]

Our culture promotes the survival of the family as the most important aspect in society. The seperation of the family unit is regarded as the most dangerous threat to life.

At the cost of that one member of the family taking abuse from everyone else to the point where she sets herself on fire or dedicates her life to becoming a personal maid to a family of 16?? Why must the woman have to pay that?? Why can't this integration not be based on respect and fair contribution from every member of the family instead?? An obedient and lawful wife is one who plays a good servant. The benefit in it for her is shelter, three times meal and a sense of being possessed by someone else. If she is lucky, she won't be burned alive or beaten like a dog in front of or with the help of the very people she plays a slave to.
I would like to see a Pashtun man sacrifice a pinch of his ego, let alone much else for the sake of the survival of family or our "culture".

What is more "dangerous" than a human being tormented to the point of setting herself on fire?? What can compel a Pashtun man in to doing that to himself?? Anything??

[khushal]

At the cost of that one member of the family taking abuse from everyone else to the point where she sets herself on fire or dedicates her life to becoming a personal maid to a family of 16?? Why must the woman have to pay that?? Why can't this integration not be based on respect and fair contribution from every member of the family instead?? An obedient and lawful wife is one who plays a good servant. The benefit in it for her is shelter, three times meal and a sense of being possessed by someone else. If she is lucky, she won't be burned alive or beaten like a dog in front of or with the help of the very people she plays a slave to.
I would like to see a Pashtun man sacrifice a pinch of his ego, let alone much else for the sake of the survival of family or our "culture".

What is more "dangerous" than a human being tormented to the point of setting herself on fire?? What can compel a Pashtun man in to doing that to himself?? Anything??

Abuse is not our culture. Those are individuals taking advantage of opportunities presented to them. Those kinds of flawed characters exist in all cultures.
One of my distant male cousin attempted suicide in different ways many times until he succeeded by burning himself. He was depressed and wanted to escape the difficult economic hardship he was in. The self immolation spiked a thousand times after the US invasion. The root cause of this has nothing to do with our culture which has existed for thousands of years, this is a new phenomena and it has more to do with economic hardship and lack of faith than anything else. The US invasion has widened the gap between rich and poor. The invasion has created an extremely wealthy elite. These elites are stealing what is intended for those poor people that are trying to escape their hardship by way of self immolation.

The self immolation of the Tunisia man which sparked the Arab Spring and the Budhists in Tibet which also use self immolation as protest against injustice done to them arnt blamed on culture but unjust leaders. Dont be blind open up your eyes.

[DaZahroJaam.]

culture is not what you drool for but what is in actual practice. Our leaders weren't dropped from the sky, they were born to the same culture and off of the same gutter that the rest of you came from.
Lousy men like you can't spot a problem let alone fix them.

A marriage ought to be based on understanding, love and respect. In every culture. There is nothing extraordinary about the pashtun culture in that sense. If anything, when it comes to that subject, there is quite a lot that we have to ashamed for and even more so that needs to be worked on.

[khushal]

culture is not what you drool for but what is in actual practice. Our leaders weren't dropped from the sky, they were born to the same culture and off of the same gutter that the rest of you came from.
Lousy men like you can't spot a problem let alone fix them.

A marriage ought to be based on understanding, love and respect. In every culture. There is nothing extraordinary about the pashtun culture in that sense. If anything, when it comes to that subject, there is quite a lot that we have to ashamed for and even more so that needs to be worked on.

The protection for the family unit is with love, respect and understanding.

And Actually these leaders were dropped from the sky.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

The protection for the family unit is with love, respect and understanding.

And Actually these leaders were dropped from the sky.

Obviously she isn't being literal; Karzai was born and raised in Karez in Kandahar, the HEARTland of Pashtun society (supposedly) He's a product of the society.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

A marriage ought to be based on understanding, love and respect. In every culture. There is nothing extraordinary about the pashtun culture in that sense. If anything, when it comes to that subject, there is quite a lot that we have to ashamed for and even more so that needs to be worked on.

Any society where direct and informed consent is not provided by all parties involved in the marriage; this is nothing else but coercion and cannot constitute a legitimate process by any means. This is in Islam and basic logic and ethics.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Abuse is not our culture. Those are individuals taking advantage of opportunities presented to them. Those kinds of flawed characters exist in all cultures.
One of my distant male cousin attempted suicide in different ways many times until he succeeded by burning himself. He was depressed and wanted to escape the difficult economic hardship he was in. The self immolation spiked a thousand times after the US invasion. The root cause of this has nothing to do with our culture which has existed for thousands of years, this is a new phenomena and it has more to do with economic hardship and lack of faith than anything else. The US invasion has widened the gap between rich and poor. The invasion has created an extremely wealthy elite. These elites are stealing what is intended for those poor people that are trying to escape their hardship by way of self immolation.

The self immolation of the Tunisia man which sparked the Arab Spring and the Budhists in Tibet which also use self immolation as protest against injustice done to them arnt blamed on culture but unjust leaders. Dont be blind open up your eyes.

While some of your point has some merits, that self-immolation isn't the product of simply bad marriages; one cannot undermine that there are intrinsically enshrined disparities of gender relations which are disproportionately against the welfare of women and regardless of these economic issues and this very nebulous attempt at scapegoating social problems and blaming outsiders. The problem is the culture itself. The culture does not abscond abusers, the culture in fact extols abuse as a form of pious justice. Such abuses are not just committed by the poor and disadvanteged but by well off people. If anything the correlation of the act of self immolation in Afghanistan SPECIFICALLY isn't so much a economic reaction against the disparities of invasion (those disparities always existed) but in Afghanistan's case at least ...it's a product of desperate women ...who discovered a new way of expressing their distress through the influx of media into Afghanistan giving them ideas of new options of self destruction they didn't consider.

The lack of faith argument is a scapegoat too; I'm pretty sure most women in distressed abusive situations who come from a zealous country where religion is used as a central gravitating point pray abundantly in hopes of finding salvation ...the only problem is, the Merciful God doesn't seem to respond. .... and thus other avenues become viable.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Our culture promotes the survival of the family as the most important aspect in society. The seperation of the family unit is regarded as the most dangerous threat to life.

I would disagree; Our culture AT ONE TIME promoted that; but that idea has become so twisted and corrupted that they've become self destructive now and are acting in ways which in fact contravene their survival. You can't survive without breeding right?" Killing or adversely affecting the well being of your women will affect breeding.

Maybe it's time Pashtuns take a good hard look at themselves?

[DaZahroJaam.]

in that case, there is more Islam in non Islamic countries than there is in Afghanistan.
I still don't understand how afghan women could possibly benefit from these "marriages".

[RevolutionThroughReason]

A younger woman/girl marrying a wealthy man for the purpose that she will be taken care of is universal, it happens everywhere and anywhere. That has nothing to do with culture but is motivated by self interest.

except the key factors here are WEALTH because wealth provides resources and security, and the implicit gradient here is CHOICE, in most cultures which has developed a conscientious understanding of human behavio, these women had every opportunity of informed consent before agreeing to marry.

What happens in Pashtun culture doesn't happen "everywhere" Because women generally are not allowed to give informed consent, the men they marry are old but seldom wealthy; in fact most of these men just save up enough money to buy a wife and once married live in squalor. However even if we take wealthy older men, the young teen girl is usually coerced into the marriage; often at an age where she is not even developmentally ready for sex. Even during puberty a woman's body is physiologically unprepared since she is JUSt starting to acquire these faculties and mature, not having become matured yet. They are thus thrust into these situations AGAINST their will, their well being and welfare where they are compelled to engage in acts and behaviors they are unprepared for in the first place both mentally and physically. This is nothing short but culturally sanctioned and institutionalized rape. Furthermore it is somewhat bordering an abberation from the Natural Mating habits of Primates of which Humans are a subclass. In Nature mates are chosen based on relative developmental compatibility; humans generally define it by age. Of course let's stress here that developmental compatibility is a continuum and not merely a sharply rigidly defined Digit of when is or when it isn't appropriate to marry; but it's clear a 60 year old and 14 year old female does not match up. A 60 year old is starting to decay; his testosterone production has declined considerably. A 14 year old is "budding" ; her body is becoming increasingly more fertile (though not necessarily capable of healthy pregnancy) and producing more estrogen and progesterone. Sure we can argue that. They can still "mate" in theory but according to the patterns of Nature and how they interact in humans, Their union is probably one of the least advantageous and least preferred settings for coupling to be imagined. He is fast becoming an increasingly inviable asset as a partner for a woman and more a liability to his welfare and survival of both themselves and their spouses. The distance in age here becomes proportional to survival viability, this is not favored in nature, despite being allotted some marginal degree of continuity; it's nature's last step not it's first march. Yet this last step is made enshrined as an ideal dictum for Pashtuns; Pashtuns as a result fail to be a culture that is compatible with nature.

why else do you think U.S. Military were able to bribe elderly tribesmen with Viagra who just happened to have young brides? They're no longer capable of fulfilling the necessary marital output and they needed an artificial alternative to compensate for what nature no longer afforded them. These are just examples but they hint to greater dilemmas in the anthropology of Pashthns and their social constructs and behaviors.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

in that case, there is more Islam in non Islamic countries than there is in Afghanistan.
I still don't understand how afghan women could possibly benefit from these "marriages".

Hamza Yusuf once said the same thing.

no women could ever benefit from such a marriage because the purpose of these marriages is not for their benefit but for the benefit of others AT their expense.

[Badlun]

If Pashtunwali was derived from Buddhism, Scythian Nomadic cultures and Zoroastrian influence. Then it was NEVER gender balanced. Because these cultures were never gender balanced. What is true however is that they did not "lock up and seclude" women. That's much different than gender balance. However in ALL Patriarchal Cultures, which Pashtunwali emphasizes patriarchy. Genders had specific roles and obligations. Men and women "were not working in the fields". When Pashtunwali is believed to have become consecrated Pashtuns were probably predominantly pastoral nomads, women gathered sticks, made clothes and made cheese. While men either hunted or grazed the animals in their flock. Men were more focused on hard labor on the terrains while women would be designated more "domestic" work .

Kuchis are nomads they do not do "field" work and the primary difference between Kuchis and settled Pashtuns is burqa, everything else s still well established; Kuchi families operate under a patriarch i.e. a Mashar, All of the decisions of the family , especially in respects to women is governed by them. Kuchi women wear special types of hair styles to indicate their virginal purity and this is guarded by their male members. This is the same as settled Pashtuns more or less. Occasionally a PRE-PUBESCENT Kuchi girl, very strongly emphasize PRE-PUBESCENT attends to sheep/cattle but after puberty she takes on a different role, making cheese or textiles. etc etc.

The portrayal you're giving seems Unscientific and does not match anthropological studies and research. It would be TOTALLY ABSURD to suppose that of all the cultures of the region, Pashtuns were magically the ONLY defacto egalitarian culture while all their surrounding cultures were not. While at the same time Pashtuns became one of the most zealously gender divided cultures more so than their surrounding cultures

But I guess your portrayal is not really actual Pashtun history but rather Modern Influenced idealization trying to impose itself on history?

regardless what you're saying is predominantly false to people who have had more exposure to the Anthropology of Indo-Aryan/Indo-European peoples.

From whatever Pashtunwali is derived , it minus the Islam of Arabs do not restrict the Pashtun women as the so called Islam or Sharia does. Where this Salafi Islam has not reached yet there you can still see pristine Pashtun society and women have all the liberties being a human being. Burqa is not Pashtunwali it is the bye product of the pseudo Sharia. For this you do not need very profound studies of Anthropology but just visiting a Pashtun village in Waziristan or Kunarh. we may not look at things always from books but also should have our direct experience. Your observation is also not backed by any scientific or anthropological data. Just mentioning science does not make something scientific.

It does not mean that Pashtunwali was a superior system to others of that time. There would have been better codes of life and social set ups but as compared to today's Pashtun society , that Pashtun society before the emergence of Salafi Islam was better and more gender balanced. It was not ideal but comparatively more egalitarian and gender sensitized.

Kuchis if work in fields as farmers or just have the occupation of grazing or animal husbandry does not make difference. What makes difference is the participation of women in economic activity. Yes they have a male elder as head of the family but women are not secluded and imprisoned in the four walls of houses. I have seen families where even male members totally depend on the income of the Kuchi women and are thus subservient to women as money makes the mare go. The real power is in the money not in the gender.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

From whatever Pashtunwali is derived , it minus the Islam of Arabs do not restrict the Pashtun women as the so called Islam or Sharia does. Where this Salafi Islam has not reached yet there you can still see pristine Pashtun society and women have all the liberties being a human being. Burqa is not Pashtunwali it is the bye product of the pseudo Sharia. For this you do not need very profound studies of Anthropology but just visiting a Pashtun village in Waziristan or Kunarh. we may not look at things always from books but also should have our direct experience. Your observation is also not backed by any scientific or anthropological data. Just mentioning science does not make something scientific.

It does not mean that Pashtunwali was a superior system to others of that time. There would have been better codes of life and social set ups but as compared to today's Pashtun society , that Pashtun society before the emergence of Salafi Islam was better and more gender balanced. It was not ideal but comparatively more egalitarian and gender sensitized.

Kuchis if work in fields as farmers or just have the occupation of grazing or animal husbandry does not make difference. What makes difference is the participation of women in economic activity. Yes they have a male elder as head of the family but women are not secluded and imprisoned in the four walls of houses. I have seen families where even male members totally depend on the income of the Kuchi women and are thus subservient to women as money makes the mare go. The real power is in the money not in the gender.

This is patently false and I'll demonstrate it by an example

In Shari'ah women are allowed to inherit their own property; in Pashtunwali women cannot inherit property all of a woman's inheritance is dilineated through her male kin; this coincides with Indo-Aryan Customs where women of Hinduism and Zoroastrianis; since the ancestors of Pashtuns were supposedly in part came were Hindus and Zoroastrians prior to Islam; this makes sense that Pashtunwali may have retained the more misogynistic character traits of their ancestors.

in Shari'ah women have a certain degree of self determination, maybe not complete but more so than the Indo-Aryan cultures which Pashtunwali would only logically be derived from.

I think Pashtuns may have had more egalitarianism when it came to dressing, I know burqa is not the traditional Pashtun garb. But when it came to women's personal rights and self determination, Pashtunwali is even worse than Salafi style Islam. I say this even though I'm a staunch critic of Salafism; but one credit Salafi have over Pashtunwali is they advocate women's self determination to some degree, i.e. opposing forced marriages and stressing Islamic inheritance. Pashtunwali lacks this in every end.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

Kuchis if work in fields as farmers or just have the occupation of grazing or animal husbandry does not make difference. What makes difference is the participation of women in economic activity. Yes they have a male elder as head of the family but women are not secluded and imprisoned in the four walls of houses. I have seen families where even male members totally depend on the income of the Kuchi women and are thus subservient to women as money makes the mare go. The real power is in the money not in the gender.

ah I think you speak as an outsider; Yes in some cases Kuchis do make their women do all the work; but the part about subserviance is false; The women are made to work while men take all the money. They're abused and exploited like cattle; Honestly the woman who maybe secluded but at least gets resources from her husband is better than a Kuchi woman in terms of personal welfare goes. Don't think because a woman is uncovered and can be seen that they see her as even a human being; many do not. That's much different than the idealization you think. They just use the girls really. However Kuchi is someone who is a pastoral nomad, so if you say work the field as you speak of like a farmer, they're not Kuchi. Only real liberty that Kuchi women have is not wearing burqa.