Do you guys celebrate Noruz?

[HalloIsBack]

hadith
hadith
hadith
hadith
what does quran say about it?

[Kushan Prince]

So basically, even the great BA does not celebrate it and accepts SK's hadith's on its denunciation and celebration.

So lets accept that nowruz is in no way beneficial to Pashtuns in anyway and move on with our lives.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

My grandfather who was born and lived all his life in Jaji would tell us stories of how they celebrated but they called it nawa'ye kal parsarlai and not nowraz. People in the village basically got together and ate in the village mosque, prayed and started planning for the planting season and since water is scarce, it would be a time to talk about how the water would be divided by the people. When my parents moved to Kabul, they did not celebrate it since they did not plant anything and water rights did not exist and not needed to be discussed. But other people that had moved to Kabul were celebrating it as the Kabulis did with the seven fruit thing. I dont believe that in our tribe it is a persian influence but a time to get together to basically discuss water rights and ofcourse when people in this region get together, food and prayer is always involved.

The HOW part of the celebration should be debated and not the celebration of Spring itself.

Salaam Bro,

Your memory and sentiments are important. I think its very good to have a spirited discussion in the way that we are now with it being redirected and talked about in light of people's memories, local specifics, tribal variations etc.

I am still working on a discussion with Shamlawar per his prior post - its just that I want to give such subjects their due and not reply hastily. These subjects require a lot of careful language and terminology.

I am glad thought that we are reaching the root/heart of the matter which really boils down to two questions:

1) The Islamic literature
2) The history of the celebration based on fact/local tradition/oral tradition amongst our tribes.

Dont think I am passing judgement. I'm not in a position to do so and prefer a large umbrella approach and a didactic discussion of these subjects.

Regards

[BarakzaiAbdali]

So basically, even the great BA does not celebrate it and accepts SK's hadith's on its denunciation and celebration.

So lets accept that nowruz is in no way beneficial to Pashtuns in anyway and move on with our lives.

Brother,

There is a lot of interesting history and facts and learning that come out of discussing this. For instance the tribe in the NWFP referring to the local variant as Shin Bozanao and the other things Khushal mentioned.

We should also continue the learning around the hadith Shamlawar provided and the concept of hadith literature where the isnad terminates at a companion.

This stuff need not be vitriolic. As I stated, its best that each person have all the information at hand.

For instance, if we commonly hear and see on the net phrases like "we've always celebrated X, Y, and Z" its fair to ask for evidence from

1) Prior literature and poetry
2) History books
3) War logs - e.g. the Anglos if nothing else kept detailed war logs documenting local and tribal traditions
4) Persian tarikhoona especially around the time Safavids tried to invade

To see what the real extent of this was and how widespread the geography was. Did the Kandahari tribes all do it, did the Eastern tribes all do it, did the remote FATA tribes do it etc? If so, what was their celebration called and how was it celebrated?

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Why do we have to do all of that? We have the ruling, its evidence, fatwa's of classic and modern scholars.

Case is closed.

Brother,

There is a lot of interesting history and facts and learning that come out of discussing this. For instance the tribe in the NWFP referring to the local variant as Shin Bozanao and the other things Khushal mentioned.

We should also continue the learning around the hadith Shamlawar provided and the concept of hadith literature where the isnad terminates at a companion.

This stuff need not be vitriolic. As I stated, its best that each person have all the information at hand.

For instance, if we commonly hear and see on the net phrases like "we've always celebrated X, Y, and Z" its fair to ask for evidence from

1) Prior literature and poetry
2) History books
3) War logs - e.g. the Anglos if nothing else kept detailed war logs documenting local and tribal traditions
4) Persian tarikhoona especially around the time Safavids tried to invade

To see what the real extent of this was and how widespread the geography was. Did the Kandahari tribes all do it, did the Eastern tribes all do it, did the remote FATA tribes do it etc? If so, what was their celebration called and how was it celebrated?

[Brown Skinned Savage]

Why do we have to do all of that? We have the ruling, its evidence, fatwa's of classic and modern scholars.

Case is closed.

Because there is always a chance that many of these narrations are filtered through the colorings of people's prejudices, even if unwilingly. We need rigor especially in cases which convey a bigoted point of view, which is inconsistent with the Prophetic Mission.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

Because there is always a chance that many of these narrations are filtered through the colorings of people's prejudices, even if unwilingly. We need rigor especially in cases which convey a bigoted point of view, which is inconsistent with the Prophetic Mission.

In other words, bayhaqi and Abu Dawud are bigots but brown savage is here to set things straight.

Tell me, did you find the chain for the seek knowledge in China Hadith you posted? Let's apply the rigor to a claim you made to see how truthful you are.

[Brown Skinned Savage]

In other words, bayhaqi and Abu Dawud are bigots but brown savage is here to set things straight.

Tell me, did you find the chain for the seek knowledge in China Hadith you posted? Let's apply the rigor to a claim you made to see how truthful you are.

You have to realize that whether they were openly bigoted or not, that people often color things by their prejudices, even look at Bengali_Tiger, he cherry picks things that will promote his slant. So we have threads that make Putin look like a hero of Muslims.

I'll still investigate about seeking knowledge even if we have to go to China.

However I will say that whether I find it, the Narration is consistent with the Prophetic Mission thereby, most likely true, even if just in intention.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Why do we have to do all of that? We have the ruling, its evidence, fatwa's of classic and modern scholars.

Case is closed.

Problem based learning is a great way to promote knowledge retention. One of my favorite things to do, is to go to the literature, both in my profession and religious life when I am confronted with a problem because that is the way to apply practically, the knowledge you are reading.

In this same fashion, we dont have to get malignant on this subject, but we can understand that

1) We are not scholars
2) We are discussing an important wedge issue that affects our region and much of the Muslim world. Here is an example of what I mean, with respect to the wedge issue used to to drive people away from Islam:
http://www.thedailybeast.com/article...strianism.html

I personally think this is an exaggerated report and there are no firm census citations, but the strategy in Kurdistan is in line with RAND philosophy we spoke of above. We should not do what Ahle Kitaab did and modify what is decreed, true, and just to "make everyone happy." Because then what is the point really? And I state this all the time, I personally don't feel like I have to bend over backwards to make sure every person that wants to do stupid things and partake in sin should somehow have Islam modified and bent to his will - I am very content with the notion that God does not need us, but we surely need his guidance. If someone is stupid enough to edge themselves into disbelief, despite our fair share of warnings, then the onus is on them. If I was as merciful as the Prophet, I might pray for such people, but quiet frankly I look at it as trials and tribulations separate the men from the boys and the wheat from the chaff.

That being said, those of us participating in this thread have learned a number of things about our religion's texts such as

1) The interactions between early Muslims and the Persians regarding Nawruz and Mahrajaan ceremonies
2) The religious opinions of the sahabaa regarding it
3) The Prophetic hadith regarding our two Eid celebrations

Everyone walked away with a little more knowledge, culturalists and religionists alike.

Now, to the question of why discuss it? I think its important to distill this down to two questions relevant to the scale of impact.

Question 1) Is it permissable to revisit a prior ruling?
We have a beautiful history Jurists debating, discussing, and corresponding on important legal matters in Islam. So long as its done respectfully, I dont think that there is an issue with a common citizen looking up evidences and bringing them to a jurist and asking for a comprehensive opinion regarding subjects of the past. The key factor is that the citizen must have honest intentions and understand the jurist will act impartially.

So once again, I think its fair to present a new question to a jurist and to say: If you come upon a tribe that converted to Islam long ago and they had Spring celebrations that could not be directly linked to naw ruz, are they considered violating the spirit of prior rulings if they continue this act if said act could not be linked to any diety at all whatosever.

For instance, in America, They have the SuperBowl Football game. If Americans were to all convert in mass, even though someone draw a link to possible pagan influences (e.g. Aztecs/Incas) and large scale sporting events... is it necessary for this nation to stop doing the game even though there are no religious associations...

Question 2) The issue of being outside of Islam

I know you cited the renegade wars in Abu Bakr's Caliphate, but purposefully rejecting one of the Quran prescribed five pillars and being recently subdued by the Prophet of God all hint toward a insurrection that was going to potentially start at the Periphery of Muslim lands and spread inward.

And raising arms against the Caliph is obviously another sign of a rejection of the faith.. but there is a chasm of difference between such individuals and a cultural Afghan who loves Islam, his people, his family, etc and the tribes that behaved in that manner.

Just as there are degrees of belief from Muslim to Moo'min, there are probably degrees of being disobedient too.

In fact, isnt there a tradition (not sure) where the Prophet said a time will come and all the people will know is Bismillah but that may be sufficient for them? as a sign of impending judgement.

My point there is that I think these latter two questions are fair to discuss and that these scenarios are not vain talk but good talk because it forces modern Muslims to return to the classic literature and at least learn something about their faith, right?

We do this in medicine where we see a pneumonia patient, even though there are guidelines and the experts of spoken, we still go back to the primary evidence and trials and disuss them so that we understand the details as best we can, even if we are not the experts in a particular field

We also have patients that look up information in books, are well read, educated, etc and they come to our offices with informed questions that are sometimes challening ones. Now, if they do try to treat themselves as Steve Jobs of Apple did, they have the right to, but they will also suffer the consequences... I look at this the same way - we are all obliged to learn with these discussions, and with no ruling body current, each man and woman here will have to come to an evidence based conclusion and then answer to God regarding how honest they were with themselves (i.e. where they trying to mold what is right and what is just to fit modernity or do they think the evidence stacks in favor of not making the halaal into haraam).

[Kushan Prince]

Brother,

There is a lot of interesting history and facts and learning that come out of discussing this. For instance the tribe in the NWFP referring to the local variant as Shin Bozanao and the other things Khushal mentioned.

We should also continue the learning around the hadith Shamlawar provided and the concept of hadith literature where the isnad terminates at a companion.

This stuff need not be vitriolic. As I stated, its best that each person have all the information at hand.

For instance, if we commonly hear and see on the net phrases like "we've always celebrated X, Y, and Z" its fair to ask for evidence from

1) Prior literature and poetry
2) History books
3) War logs - e.g. the Anglos if nothing else kept detailed war logs documenting local and tribal traditions
4) Persian tarikhoona especially around the time Safavids tried to invade

To see what the real extent of this was and how widespread the geography was. Did the Kandahari tribes all do it, did the Eastern tribes all do it, did the remote FATA tribes do it etc? If so, what was their celebration called and how was it celebrated?

Every Iranic group has their own way of celebrating Nowruz. The Kurds have a tradition of jumping over the fire which is uncommon among Persians and the Lur people and they celebrate it on April 1st rather in March and is very close to the Assyrian celebration of Kha-b-Nisan which is also a spring festival. I highly doubt "Naway Kal" is in any just Nowruz in disguise, it just happens to take place in the same month since that is the month spring starts.

We should also continue the learning around the hadith Shamlawar provided and the concept of hadith literature where the isnad terminates at a companion.

I agree its good to discuss to get a clear answer but honestly, SK provided more then one Hadith that clearly explains the denouncation of Nowruz or any celebration that goes against Islamic law, so why continue? We don't hear many people now a days on here disuccusing if Pashtuns are Jews or not because it has been proven wrong multiple times by genetics and thats Pashtuns are an Indo-European people.

So basically put, there is no point to ignore the facts laid out in front of us for the sake of our own opinion like what some people are doing here and trying to pin-point it as some Pakhtun festival.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION],

Disobeying a Khalifah is not kufr. Denying the obligation to pay zakat to other than Prophet is kufr. The Arab tribes claimed zakat is only payable to a prophet, not to a Khalifah. This was an act of kufr. Therefore Abu Bakr siddiq killed them.

There are different types of kufr. Some types of kufr do not take a person outside the fold of Islam. Suppose a person doesn't know nawroz is a custom of kuffar. Suppose he or she thinks it's just a spring festival, this is not sufficient to declare such a person as a kafir. The reason is that ignorance is a valid excuse. One can be ignorant regarding certain matters of faith as long as they are not part of what is called al ma3'looma min ad deem bi dharoora. Meaning necessary knowledge of the religion. One cannot be ignorant of matters concerning monotheism, polytheism, testimony of faith, the prayer etc.

If a person claims to be Muslim and practices Islam but also commits shirk then it is impossible for such a person to be a Muslim. But if a person doesn't know about the origins of nawroz, then it is entirely different.

However when the ruling and it's evidence reaches the person and he persists on deeming nawroz as permissible then this becomes major kufr which takes him out of the fold of Islam.

Merely saying bismillah is not enough to be considered a Muslim. There is no way a person can say bismillah and enter paradise.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

A person can be a cigarette smoking nawroz celebrating jolly old fellow who dances and enjoys music and yet have a higher level of Iman than the imam of Ka'ba as long as he doesn't know about the impermissibility of those things.

But if a person knows something to be haram, and yet he still claims it is permissible for him to do it, nothing will save him from kufr. Even if he fasts every day, prays all night long, attends hajj and umrah every year and gives all his wealth to the poor.

The reason why most people who celebrate nawroz are considered kafirs is because they reject the ruling and label it as bigotry or Arab cultural imperialism.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION],

Disobeying a Khalifah is not kufr.

Fair enough

Denying the obligation to pay zakat to other than Prophet is kufr.

Agreed; that was the point I was generally trying to convey and attempting to say that this was what Abu Bakr appeared to be upset about.

The Arab tribes claimed zakat is only payable to a prophet, not to a Khalifah. This was an act of kufr. Therefore Abu Bakr siddiq killed them.

I recall in the past, that there were disagreements between the companions on how to approach this issue though:

The prominent Companions of the Prophet (Sahaba), such as Umar and Abu Ubayda, urged Abu Bakr to “rescind the tax for the year and to treat the tribes loyal to Islam leniently in order to enlist their support for those who had abandoned Islam” (Madelung 1997, 48; Berkey 2004, 261–64

http://sharia.law.emory.edu/index.html%3Fq=en%252Fwars_apostasy.html

It was to these that Abu Bakr gave his famous response of enforcing the law no matter what.

And why this is important is that even the early companions had differences in opinion on serious (in fact the most important matters) matters and how to approach enforcement.



There are different types of kufr. Some types of kufr do not take a person outside the fold of Islam. Suppose a person doesn't know nawroz is a custom of kuffar. Suppose he or she thinks it's just a spring festival, this is not sufficient to declare such a person as a kafir. The reason is that ignorance is a valid excuse. One can be ignorant regarding certain matters of faith as long as they are not part of what is called al ma3'looma min ad deem bi dharoora. Meaning necessary knowledge of the religion. One cannot be ignorant of matters concerning monotheism, polytheism, testimony of faith, the prayer etc.

Agreed

If a person claims to be Muslim and practices Islam but also commits shirk then it is impossible for such a person to be a Muslim.

Agreed

But if a person doesn't know about the origins of nawroz, then it is entirely different.

Agreed

However when the ruling and it's evidence reaches the person and he persists on deeming nawroz as permissible then this becomes major kufr which takes him out of the fold of Islam.

I need to carefully research these sources and the opinions you cited to reach this same conclusion... because if, for instance, even the matter above had disagreements amongst important companions- I would want to be very very careful in this labeling. Once again the reason is niyaat. I have met nationalist folks who are good people and they have sentiments for Islam that run deep. Often times, its a combination of purposeful ignorance and the idea that, as you said, these sorts of discussions initiated at this time are done purposefully to eradicate a native identity. Many of them have a dearth of knowledge regarding what Nawruz was and even is.

I generally like to encourage people to learn and use their brain. Engaging them in a reasonable argument that leaves out labeling terms and epithets results in greater soul searching since they dont feel antagonized.

That being said, I agree with you fully regarding what Nawruz is and why it should not be celebrated.


Merely saying bismillah is not enough to be considered a Muslim. There is no way a person can say bismillah and enter paradise.

Sorry, I found the hadith I meant:
Huzaifah bin Al-Yaman said, the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said, " Islam will become worn out like clothes are, until there will be no-one who knows what fasting, prayer, charity and rituals are. The Qur’an will disappear in one night, and no Ayah (verse) will be left on Earth. Some groups of old people will be left who will say, "We heard our fathers saying La ilaha illa Allah, so we repeat it." Silah asked Huzaifah, "What will saying La ilaha illa Allah do for them when they do not know what prayer, fasting, ritual and charity are?" Huzaifah ignored him; then Silah repeated his question three times, and each time Huzaifah ignored him. Finally he answered,' O Silah, it will save them from Hell ' and said it three times." (Ibn Majah)

And as i said, I think leading with wisdom first is the better part of valor. If the Prophet wanted to do something, and he was the Prophet of God, yet he limited himself because he felt that his people were too close to their prior idolatory era ... I would say he understood human nature and decided that there are times and places to push these issues. One of these times and places is here since we are having a rich discussion.

I appreciate your feedback.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

A person can be a cigarette smoking nawroz celebrating jolly old fellow who dances and enjoys music and yet have a higher level of Iman than the imam of Ka'ba as long as he doesn't know about the impermissibility of those things.

But if a person knows something to be haram, and yet he still claims it is permissible for him to do it, nothing will save him from kufr. Even if he fasts every day, prays all night long, attends hajj and umrah every year and gives all his wealth to the poor.

The reason why most people who celebrate nawroz are considered kafirs is because they reject the ruling and label it as bigotry or Arab cultural imperialism.

Once again, it depends on the reason. When we dissect out the Quran verses that speak of twelve months and think about things economically, we come to a conclusion that an Islamic Calendar is the best food forward. But there are routes of message delivery too and I think the argument between you and Khushaal above devolved not because you both disagree on the issue of nawruz, but rather because folks were speaking past eachother. I think Khushal's argument centered on local tribal celebrations that may be variant to the issue of nawruz (I provided the historical example of Shino bozano)... but at the heart of it, I am sure that he is smart enough to know what Nawruz signifies and to know its history relative to Afghanistan. My suspicion is that he doesnt mean that people should hunt down and take on Zoroastrian celebrations because its simply been always done.

*In fact, as i said, I think the historical evidence for it always being done is utterly lacking in Pashtun lands.

Another example might be the attan... it a tribal dance and bears some similarities to the historical dances used in other cultures and even some of the customs the Kalash do.

So then, how would one approach the attan? Would it be to strike it out and say it resembles a pagan dance?

All I am saying is that I am very careful when I think about halaal and haraam and of course I lack the scholarly credentials to make the decisions about it. That being said, I do think there is some wisdom outside of credentials that allow one to think deeply about such matters in this world that is growing more chaotic and complex.

Application of hard power and execution of law is a very sensitive subject and I prefer to go to God knowing full well that I never deprived anyone of their life or their rights.

x

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION],

the author of the article you quoted said this:

I am not concerned here with the validity of that dominant view, or whether Abu Bakr was right or wrong in waging war

My question to you is: what are you trying to prove here?

I am sure you are a very well educated and scholarly person. You occasionally state that you are not a scholar of Islam, but then in the next paragraph you interpret sources of law and even speculate on what a proper ruling "should" be.

The hadith you posted is btw misinterpreted by those who believe speech and action are not part of Imaan and thus, any person can be a Muslim by merely saying the shahada. This, of course contradicts hundreds of verses of the Qur'an.

If you want me to post an extensive commentary of the hadith, let me know. But I do advice you, don't google stuff just to prove something.