Split Discussion: Identity, Nationality and Being Pashtun

[haviZsultan]

False once again, boy you are on a roll today. Pakistanis that were raised in Pakistan, for the most part, can't critically think. Which is why they get upset when they are forced to think against what they were taught since grade school, through various methods of indoctrination. I can assure you none were insulted, and when such scenarios arose, justice was instantaneously serviced.

Admin Khan, the last thing you can blame me for is not being able to think critically. Since I haven't attended grade school in Pakistan you cannot claim I am indoctrinated.

You are trying to claim I am indoctrinated, indirectly. Have I given one traditional argument. For example this is how the traditional Pakistani talks:
1)Afghanistan is being used by RAW
2) you have been indoctrinated by the CIA and are an agent
3) did I not criticize Pakistans interference in Afghanistan, no Pakistani believes our interference in Afghanistan in 1980's was a mistake. They believe they did a great "holy" task
4) Pakistan is the beacon of Islam which the enemy is trying to destroy- CIA RAW everyone but we made no mistake...
5) Islam and Pakistan are one.

This is how the Pakistani mind thinks. Tell me if I have broken the barriers or not? Of course I do not believe foreign intelligence services are innocent but I do not use it as my line of defense. This is what the Pakistanis are actually taught. Have I once used those arguments?

And check my IP. I may be Karachi bred but for most of my life I have been raised outside. So this logic cannot apply to me. Even to many others perhaps because they too were raised outside.

Admin if you seriously can't see me as a liberal Pakistani who CAN take the heat then I don't believe you or this site can be happy with any Pakistani or Pakistani Pashtun at all because they do not tend to accept the mistakes their country made so easily.

You want someone who's tolerant to your ideas, you got him but if you still think I am "taught" all this then I don't know what to do...

I, however, was criticized[archives of this are available]for allowing them to post here. You want to know what the state of the forum was at that time? An array of Punjabis posting here, and me giving them the voice simply because I believe in freedom of speech. I was criticized, to the fullest -- and in fact many Pukhtun nationalists left the board because unlike racist sites like Defence pk, that instantly bans members for criticizing or even daring to challenge the false,self-defeating Pakistani ideology, I let them rock & roll here. However, members like Levanaye Zalmaye, Pir_Rokhan, Nadir Shah, Wrayun, Ijaz Yousafzai and an array of others gave them a run for their money. It got to a point where they began trolling, posting insults, and attacks since they couldn't formulate any more logical points. All these discussions can easily be found, start by searching for Pakistani nationalist.

I am sure you are trying your best as an admin. I guess as I said every forum has a worldview. You are presenting that worldview and it has thrived on your site. That worldview perhaps is simply not compatible with the Pakistani Pashtuns or the patriotic Pakistanis thinking which is why all of these members eventually quit or had problems. Therefore what Kurmewal said about the majority is also wrong. On PF this mindset represents the majority but perhaps not in the real world.

When your site represents an ideology or line of thinking people with that line of thinking flock to you. The ones that don't follow your line of thinking are eventually pushed out or abused by those who do... so those who don't follow your thinking feel discriminated against.

The same way I am making you think, in a professional way, many pressed others. Now say for example, you decide to run away[which I sincerely hope you don't, like Son of Mountains], cause you can't handle the heat from tor_khan, one wouldn't call that insults. It would perhaps mean you need to take more philosophy courses to learn the difference between a doxa, and an argument with logical reasoning.

Running away is not a solution. It will only make the racist mindset stronger and this is clearly what some members want. Members have been swearing outright at Pakistan and calling for the country to disappear. That was what I was talking about.

I commend your efforts to build a site with differing views.

Of course I have a book to write and since contributing to the forum is coming in the way of the book too (my productivity has been reduced to 2 chapters monthly from 4 chapters monthly) I may have to reduce my contribution. In short words, if I quit it won't be because I can't handle the heat. It will be because I have to deal with my life.

If someone calls you a traitor, with evidence offered, or constructively criticizes your nation with evidence, you shouldn't perceive that an an insult. In fact, you remind me of Israelis right now. As soon as their nation is criticized, they tout and begin their chest-thumping sirens as to how they are the only democracy in the middle east.

Its the case of these people ganging up on you daily that gets to you. Frankly defending Pakistan on PF without a single person to thank me, to praise me for it is one of the braver decisions of my life. If anything of my work for PNA comes on my resume when I want to join nationalist organizations this should too...

I still have his private messages, where he was on his knees begging me to ban members like Levanaye Zalmaye and others for criticizing his nation. He was so brainwashed, that even the idea of questioning Pakistan was an insult to him. To his defense, I along with tor_khan have banned many Afghan nationalists that were incredibly anti-Pakistani. He however, just simply couldn't take any heat. He wanted me to censor stuff, and that's something I can't do.

He seems like a good person from my talks with him. Never an insult, very friendly. I believe it was a loss for this forum to lose him. Though I do not blame the admins and mods. Its the overall culture of the site which just does not welcome the Pakistani Pashtun.

This isn't Pakistan, where if you challenge the military brass you get shot & dead. I told him to report posts that he finds as 'insults' and I will take care of it. I've deleted thousands of 'insults' and I'm sure even Talal can vouch for this. I've stayed as neutral as possible. But, if someone wants to criticize the ISI, or for Pakistan being an international headache, then the aforementioned shouldn't be deemed as an insult. Pakistan isn't a holy state, it was founded in a divide and conquer manner, and it's first ISI chief speaks for it's self.

I will do the same. Report posts from now I guess.

I have never stated Pakistan is a holy state which cannot be criticized. If thats what people want to do. Fine... Fire away Cap'n...

I've been to Karachi, so I know what I am talking about. We both have the right to have opinions.

I agree.

Lol, what a joke. Obviously they wouldn't want to join a fractured Afghanistan, simply because it offers them nothing. That, logically speaking, doesn't negate the fact that a Pashtun in Karachi, views a Pashtun in let's say Jalalabad as his brother, not a mere a countryman. I can provide with a bunch of evidence that solidifies the notion that they consider themselves Afghans. For instance, ANP, at nearly every single one of their rallies, chant "LAR AW BAR YAW AFGHAN". Look it up, and educate yourself on what that means. Better yet, attend one of their jirgas and ask em what they view themselves. I remember in Karachi, they even began chanting this for a good 1 minute in Clifton. It would be just as interested if you conduct a show, and claim that Pashtuns of Afghanistan are different than Pashtuns of Pakistan, expect a nice little shake down.

[QUOTE]

Just because they began chanting it doesn't mean they take it in the traditional sense-in the same sense you take it.

As leader of the PNA Canada Chapter I could have conducted such a show in one of our schools in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. But we are noble people. We do not want to impose ideology on our people and loyalists. Otherwise of course they will be known as brainwashed, indoctrinated or incapable of critical thought. Instead we stay open to them if they wish to join our movement. Our figures say 100-200 Pashtuns from these projects joined us.

Now let me ask you? Are you educating the Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa so they can get jobs easily, or improve the life of the average Pakhtun. Or is he being led on to divide from his land by the Afghan and then Afghans won't meet him half way by abandoning Hazara, Uzbek Tajik and giving them freedom?

Please admin khana for the benefit of our people on this side don't do this. We made our place in Pakistani society with a lot of difficulty. Now Pashtuns are known as its most loyal subjects. Destroying this reputation will reduce the authority of our people.

Don't break what we have built. If people feel alienated they won't take part in society making the Pashtun weaker. Something that has already happened to the Baloch.

Do you want the Pashtun to be at the feet of the Punjabi? Then please strengthen the fist of the Pakistani Pashtun instead of weakening it.

Pashtuns are one and believe me I had a lot of respect for the Afghan Pashtun too. Of course not more than that for our own people but almost equal. Please don't destroy Pashtun unity.

With all due respect Havi, what you fail to understand, for whatever reason, is the following:

As soon as a Pukhtun is educated, he wants to research his background. Today is the age of modern technology, it takes 1 Google search query to find out that a proud Pashtun of Pukhtunkhwa once said:

Pull out your sword and slay any one, that says Pashtun and Afghan are not one! Arabs know this and so do Romans: Afghans are Pashtuns, Pashtuns are Afghans!

So in short, if you deny that Pashtuns!=Afghan, you would be slayed. While you are at it, ask any Pukhtun what they think of Khushal Khan baba. It take a split minute, for any Pukhtun, to realize that the very label Pukhtun/Pashtun/Pathan means Afghan. In fact, the very language they speak is known as Afghani, by most historians. So there is absolutely nothing Punjabis, Sindhis or Belgians could do about the obvious, which is Lar and bar are one, and that is why the opposed a border between them.

Khushal Khan Baba lived in the 1600's wroar. What he said then was relevant then. How is it now? Pashtunkhwa wasn't even there at that time? And you claim we can't think critically. How are you any different if you are quoting some violent words from 400 years ago used in war?

Even I am proud of somethings Khushal Khan Baba did and said. That does not mean I support division of my land, the land Pashtuns ancestors died for, drained their blood for.

However I do not understand what you mean to convey by picking out such a violent qoute. That our people are traitors? Our people just because they do not believe Afghan and Pashtun are one should be killed? Why not qoute this to a Tajik or Hazara and tell him to get out of your country first? Tell them they don't belong because Afghans can only be Pashtuns?

Why impose things on us? And this is what you will do with dissidents in your country when you achieve this lar aw bar=Afghanistan? What is the difference between ISI (which is blamed for all ills) and you if you will do so?

Admin I am very sorry to say but I am very disappointed by this qoute and it makes me uneasy. Thank god you cannot trace location of my house. If you have these views about your fellow Pashtun brothers then what will you do to the others?

This is why Hazara, Uzbek and Tajik tend to make fun of Pashtuns and are angry with the center. They have probably been brutally killed.

I don't know if you are trying to scare me away from the site but you didn't have to qoute that. I would go myself if you asked me. I am very hurt by that.

If you ever visit Quetta, let me know how much it feels like "Pakistan". There is no border between the two nations. In fact, it is more easier for an Afghan to cross, than it is for a Punjabi, Sindhi, Hazara or Tajik, go figure out way. You can sit in Karachi, or a foreign nation and deny this all you want, but I beg of you to go and figure out ground realities, not by your "Pathan friends". I mean, Musharraf yelled to "seal" the border and every Pukhtun party said "No bhai, not happening". We have connections across the border Havi, it's not like Punjabis of India and Pakistan, where they share nothing. We aren't mere 'cousins' we are one.

That has to do with the center's stupidity and lack of control. It has made it difficult for its own people to enter their own land! For the people with the right links Quetta isn't close to off-limits.

I understand that you must be working with like-minded and disenfranchised youth from this side too who don't know what the hell they are doing. But you make a huge mistake if you believe they are a majority. There have been attacks on Pakistan from the Afghan side sometimes and mostly the frontier force (60-70% Pashtun) and frontier corps (80%+ Pashtun) have dealt with it.

That is what I just said. Your fantasy of Pashtuns being these fierce patriotic Pakistanis that will kill someone if they insult Pakistan is nothing but a joke.

The Pakistani military, has sold the Pashtun nation for some financial aid and new military technology. Go visit Waziristan, and ask any Pukhtun what they think of this so called Banana republic of Pakistan.

Admin me and you both know my country has made grievous mistakes. Mistakes that have weakened its position. Mistakes that have left the Pashtun alienated.

But is wishing Pakistan away the solution? Does that mean the creation of Pakistan was a mistake? The Pakistani Pashtun does not believe so. As long as he remains our country will remain.

[JattApache]

it's not like Punjabis of India and Pakistan, where they share nothing

I know that the pashtuns are more united than the punjabis , admin khan
But if the punjabis don't share a lot of things it's because their religions influenced them a lot.
Despite this, they share the same language, culture ( Bhangra, agriculture, style of life ) , but their religions are different, so yes, they are different
In the contrary of that, all the pashtuns ( AfPak ) are muslims and they are more united

[JattApache]

and in fact many Pukhtun nationalists left the board because unlike racist sites like Defence pk, that instantly bans members for criticizing or even daring to challenge the false,self-defeating Pakistani ideology

Very very well said admin.

[Admin Khan]

Firstly, you sort of contradicted yourself. On one hand, you are telling me you can think critically[which I believe you]but then you are claiming I am 'blaming' you. If you read my post carefully never did I say you are indoctrinated, or that you can't think.

Admin Khan, the last thing you can blame me for is not being able to think critically.

I never did Havi. Read the above. I said those who are brainwashed in Pakistani grade schools, and clearly you haven't.

Since I haven't attended grade school in Pakistan you cannot claim I am indoctrinated.

I never said you are to begin with. I can't defend something I never said, the same way you can't necessarily be held accountable for a book you never wrote.

You are trying to claim I am indoctrinated, indirectly.

Malgara, I don't have anything to prove 'indirectly'. Rest assured that if I have anything to say, I'll say it someone in their face. My post was a general post, to Pakistanis raised in Pakistan. As a matter fact, I even wrote my last post, I stated that it's a general post. The post goes out to all those Pakistanis that sing the Qomi tarana in their assembly lines at 7:30AM on the dot, and are brainwashed with false ideologies. Since I wasn't sure if you were part of the assembly line(that's what they literally call it in Pakistan, an assembly line)I didn't claim that you are brainwashed. In all honesty, I have no clue what you are talking about here.

Have I given one traditional argument. For example this is how the traditional Pakistani talks:
1)Afghanistan is being used by RAW
2) you have been indoctrinated by the CIA and are an agent
3) did I not criticize Pakistans interference in Afghanistan, no Pakistani believes our interference in Afghanistan in 1980's was a mistake. They believe they did a great "holy" task
4) Pakistan is the beacon of Islam which the enemy is trying to destroy- CIA RAW everyone but we made no mistake...
5) Islam and Pakistan are one.

Again, for the sake of whichever God you believe in, please read my post carefully and slowly. S-L-O-W-L-Y.

Of course I do not believe foreign intelligence services are innocent but I do not use it as my line of defense. This is what the Pakistanis are actually taught. Have I once used those arguments?

No, not that I am aware of.

And check my IP. I may be Karachi bred but for most of my life I have been raised outside. So this logic cannot apply to me. Even to many others perhaps because they too were raised outside.

Oh my God, you have misinterpreted my entire post. I've never seen someone misconstrue what I've read to this extent; please re-read what I said. I never targeted you, or claimed that you are part of the brainwashed segment of Pakistan. I simply provided you my stance, to solidify the notion of Afghan=Pashtun, and to show you that one of the reasons Pakistanis feel or think that way, is for XYZ reason. Notice how I didn't say one of the reason YOU, or HAVI feels that way, is ABC. You want to know why I didn't do that? Because for me to claim that, I'd have to provide evidence for my claims, something I don't have; hence why I didn't target you. Now if I would've seen you type "ISI works for Islam" or any of that mantra, I could've held it against you, and challenged you on it. Get my drift?

Admin if you seriously can't see me as a liberal Pakistani who CAN take the heat then I don't believe you or this site can be happy with any Pakistani or Pakistani Pashtun at all because they do not tend to accept the mistakes their country made so easily.

Oh my God...Ya Allah...read the above.

I am sure you are trying your best as an admin. I guess as I said every forum has a worldview. You are presenting that worldview and it has thrived on your site. That worldview perhaps is simply not compatible with the Pakistani Pashtuns or the patriotic Pakistanis thinking which is why all of these members eventually quit or had problems. Therefore what Kurmewal said about the majority is also wrong. On PF this mindset represents the majority but perhaps not in the real world.

I've elaborated on this in my previous post, with the reason behind me getting criticized.

When your site represents an ideology or line of thinking people with that line of thinking flock to you.

False. We have had Jewish members, Christian members, all sort of members. And like I said previously, if there was ever any obvious insult, it was instantly deleted. The same way I've banned Afghan nationalists, for acting crazy, I've banned Pakistani nationalists, for acting crazy. Notice how everyone you've debated with so far here are from Pakistan. The policies here have never served one ideology over the other. So what you are saying there is totally wrong. It's a freedom to speech platform, where you may say what you want, but provided that you abide to our basic set of rules. Most brainwashed Pashtuns of Pakistan, can't take the heat and that is why they left. That's not their fault, it's just that they can't critically think. Take Esapxai for example, when he first joined he was just like Son of Mountains, after a few months of readings, he quickly realized how stupid it is to be a Pakistani nationalist. You can easily click on his profile, and follow his track record if you don't believe me.

The ones that don't follow your line of thinking are eventually pushed out or abused by those who do... so those who don't follow your thinking feel discriminated against.

False again. I, myself, have been "abused" for allowing non-pro Pashtunistan Pukhtuns here. There was even a Facebook page started against this site for allowing Punjabis and Tajiks to post here. So what you are saying holds no water at all. I challenge you, bring all your "pro-Pakistani" people here, and I can guaranty you, as a co-admin, that none of your buddies will be banned for their beliefs. No one was ever banned for that reason. When Afghan and Pakistani nationalists where banned, it was because they got disrespectful, and justice was served. Take yourself for example, has anybody from the staff sent you an infraction for being here? You are pretty pro-Pakistan, aren't you? Think honestly about this, and you will realize as long as a member is professional, it's all fine with me. In fact Havi, there was a time when we had over 20-30 active atheists on the board. None, and I mean none, were ever banned because of that. It was other reasons that led to their banishment.

In short words, if I quit it won't be because I can't handle the heat. It will be because I have to deal with my life.

Personally, I hope you don't 'quit'.

Now let me ask you? Are you educating the Pashtuns in Pakhtunkhwa so they can get jobs easily, or improve the life of the average Pakhtun.

I am trying too. All I can say for now is that is one of my goals.

Or is he being led on to divide from his land by the Afghan and then Afghans won't meet him half way by abandoning Hazara, Uzbek Tajik and giving them freedom?

Pashtuns are already Afghans. What in the world are you trying to say? Didn't you read what I wrote previously?

Let me put it this way; I would never endorse a movement that forces someone to leave what they are doing and join them.

Please admin khana for the benefit of our people on this side don't do this. We made our place in Pakistani society with a lot of difficulty. Now Pashtuns are known as its most loyal subjects.

Pashtuns = A great commodity. I agree, we are known for being loyal.

The following are good reasons:

1. You can blow us up, and get amazing F16s.
2. You can kill my family with a drone attack, and won't hear a word from me, because I am an akharoat , a Pathan, an uneducated mickey-mouse looking character who can't speak up against his non-Pashtun master sitting in GHQ.
3. You can also sell me, grab an array of my relatives, and send us to Guantanamo to show the Pakistani masters, USA, that you are doing something against the Taliban[something ISI is famous for supporting].
4. You may also attempt to brainwash my kids, send em to suicide factory machines, and force them to blow themselves up in various countries for Jihad, while the kids of Punjabis are receiving top notch education in Beacon house school systems. I can't blame you for any of the aforementioned. I blame ourselves, I look at my collar first -- so yes, I admit, Pukhtuns have been super-duper loyal, and I can imagine how much of a loss it would be if your country lost such an amazing ethnic group.

While the children's of non-Pashtuns are busy debating if they should major in Computer Science, or Computer Engineering, my people are getting slaughtered.

So yeah, of course we are loyal, we have a high birth rate, and killing us won't be detrimental.

In all seriousness Havi, who are you trying to kid? Loyal my foot.

Don't break what we have built.

Sure, sure. I'll try not to interrupt your financial aid, military aid, at the expense of my people. You may continue the drone attacks at my village, as long as you get those Benjamin Franklins. Only when you lose a relative, will you understand the plight of poor demonized, and discriminated against Pashtuns.

If people feel alienated they won't take part in society making the Pashtun weaker. Something that has already happened to the Baloch.

Baluch people have woke up, and realized all Punjab is doing is looting their resources, while developing Lahore and neglecting Quetta. Does this sound familiar to you?

Do you want the Pashtun to be at the feet of the Punjabi? Then please strengthen the fist of the Pakistani Pashtun instead of weakening it.

We already are at the feet of the Punjabi, haven't you taken a look at our death toll? We are trying to overcome it, but you here are telling me to not break what you have built.

Pashtuns are one and believe me I had a lot of respect for the Afghan Pashtun too. Of course not more than that for our own people but almost equal. Please don't destroy Pashtun unity.

What an illogical, silly, laughable statement. Here, allow me to use some pseudo code to show you how incredibly illogical the above is.

If(pashtunsAreOne== true)
then, obviously Pashtuns, regardless of where they are from, are one.
//you said they are one, so the above is true thus far.

If you respect a Pashtun from Pakistan, since they are one, based on what you said, that would imply you respect Pashtuns of Afghanistan too. The fact that above you said otherwise, is just silly to say the least.

You are telling me about unity? When you are here saying "Oh yeah, Pashtuns are one, but I respect this branch more than that branch". Seriously dude?

Khushal Khan Baba lived in the 1600's wroar. What he said then was relevant then. How is it now? Pashtunkhwa wasn't even there at that time?

Lol. Pashtunkhwa wasn't even there? Where were we? At mars? Holland? Those that inhabit the area are his children and you should research Pashtunkhwa and Khushal Baba, and how deeply each Pashtun in the past and today respects him.

And you claim we can't think critically. How are you any different if you are quoting some violent words from 400 years ago used in war?

Lol, those are literary words, from the man who all Pashtuns today revere as one of our top notch literary artist. Perhaps you aren't so good with literature but that passage affirms the obvious, which is, Pashtun = Afghan.

Insult Khushal Khan baba, in front of any Pashtun, and expect an uproar.

Why impose things on us? And this is what you will do with dissidents in your country when you achieve this lar aw bar=Afghanistan? What is the difference between ISI (which is blamed for all ills) and you if you will do so?

Oh my God, who is imposing what on who? I haven't imposed anything on you. What I am saying is regardless of what the current map shows, Pashtuns don't regard the border, as an actual 'border'. Does that make any sense to you? I suppose it wouldn't, since you are fluent with ground realities.

Admin I am very sorry to say but I am very disappointed by this qoute and it makes me uneasy. Thank god you cannot trace location of my house. If you have these views about your fellow Pashtun brothers then what will you do to the others?

Oh my God, lol.

I don't know if you are trying to scare me away from the site but you didn't have to qoute that. I would go myself if you asked me. I am very hurt by that.

I know English isn't your first language, but what in the world are you talking about? Please have someone read to you, what I wrote. I beg of you.

But is wishing Pakistan away the solution? Does that mean the creation of Pakistan was a mistake? The Pakistani Pashtun does not believe so. As long as he remains our country will remain.

Lol at you serving as the spokesman for Pashtuns of Pakistan. I will let you answer that above, as soon as you research what Pakistan has done to my ethnic group.

Given how you twisted what I said in a complete 180, I don't have the energy to explain how big of a contradiction that state of Pakistan is This has been spoken about, and exhausted here at the board.