Split Discussion: Identity, Nationality and Being Pashtun

[khushal]

Khushal, Pashtuns of FATA are a great commodity for Islamabad. Slaughtering our people= newer aircrafts. Then you have these pseudo nationalists claiming they are full fledged Pakistanis. Anybody who thinks they are patriotic to Islamabad needs to visit the area.

Exactly, pashtuns like shahbaz always talks about abdur rahman selling them but never mentions how islamabad sells their blood for money. hyptocrits

[Kurmewal]

Hes from Karachi?

Even though he [J.] is a hypocrite apostate with double standards, he still spekas the truth sometimes - unlike the other two stooges .

[haviZsultan]

Read the bold type then consider: Za Pashtun yam. That's what I want to be known as.

Again read the bold type. And then consider if what you've written could be argued to be totally false.

Most here are open minded enough to not hold your non-Pashtun status against you. However, from your posts I deduct one thing first: your agenda is not the plight of Pashtuns; it is the promotion of your view of Pashtuns. These are two separate things that do not necessarily align.

No it is the plight of Pashtuns but of course we do not view the same things as threats (ie Pakistan). By egging some few Pashtuns on on this side if they are being naive it will only cause more problems. It will cause them:

1) To be shunned among their Pashtun brethren who are more patriotic.
2) Dividing Pashtuns further into camps, Nationalist, Liberal, Loy aPashtunistan types... etc.
3) Pakistan is a reality. It exists. Generally as you have described in the previous posts Pakistan has tried to stop in some cases this kind of sentiment and promote a muslim-bhai bhai worldview. Pakistanis do not generally help or aid a person who does not follow their worldview. I know this as a secularist. This is alienating the Pakistani Pashtun further because if he asks for freedom the center is going to ignore him and if he becomes a threat with 1000's of followers mistreat him too.

And what about the rest of the people. Rest of us, the majority? We will always be judged with suspicion because some of our brethren couldn't understand the better choice for them? Couldn't understand that Lalak Jan, Karnal Sher Khan, Pashtuns, our ancestors drained their blood for them, for this country? They plan to undo all that?

Its a great dis-service to the Pakistani Pashtun. Furthermore how do we know Afghanistan even wants to meet the Pashtun here halfway. Are you going to abandon your tajiks hazara uzbeks for Pashtuns here?

Open-minded? Anyway how do you know I am not Pashtun. As I said I may be third generation.

Culture shock? It doesnt take an educated Pashtun long to realize the contradictions Pakistan is based and found upon. To answer your question, yes he is.

Well not cultural shock... but shock nonetheless. In reality if you walk in Pashtun area in Karachi shouting things about Pakistan you get beaten up. My friend got shouted at for listening to an Indian song in a locality. These people cannot represent the majority

But I don't understand and I know these people shouldn't be this alienated. Why? I was aware of Afghans beliefs and Pashtun Nationalism but I did not really brace myself for people on this side displaying the same behavior. I was aware that I would meet some disenchanted youth tired of the failed WoT but...

[Admin Khan]

Well not cultural shock... but shock nonetheless. In reality if you walk in Pashtun area in Karachi shouting things about Pakistan you get beaten up. My friend got shouted at for listening to an Indian song in a locality. These people cannot represent the majority

But I don't understand and I know these people shouldn't be this alienated. Why? I was aware of Afghans beliefs and Pashtun Nationalism but I did not really brace myself for people on this side displaying the same behavior. I was aware that I would meet some disenchanted youth tired of the failed WoT but...

False. Let me tell you what the ground reality in Karachi is : Pukhtuns for the most part, dont give a damn about Pakistan since they are more concerned about getting food in their stomachs. For every brainwashed Shehbaz, you have a Levanaye Zalmay who is a critical thinker. He is single handedly responsible for scaring hundreds of Defence pk members away from here, since they couldnt refute what he was saying. You may check our archives for further elaboration. Unfortunately, you wish that was the reality. A quick trip down to Sohrab goth will prove otherwise.

[Admin Khan]

Caveat: I find it incredibly amusing when you have outsiders telling us who we are, and how we should behave and act. What are we, some mickey mouse sculptures? You dont find Pukhtuns in Punjabi or Bengali boards telling them who they are, or how patriotic they are. Let us breath, stop painting us with your imaginary brush.

This is a general post.

[Kurmewal]

I was aware of Afghans beliefs and Pashtun Nationalism but I did not really brace myself for people on this side displaying the same behavior. I was aware that I would meet some disenchanted youth tired of the failed WoT but...

HELLO!Tor_Khan is from Pashtunkhwa. Levanaye Zalmaye is from Pashtunkhwa. DaMalakndGhar is from Pashtunkhwa. Soldat is (his own words, not mine) from Pashtunkhwa. Khyberkhan, Adamyousafzai, etc. all these people and many more are from KP. I myself was also raised there.None of these people support Pakistan.Infact, on this forum, currently only Shehbaz Khan does.What does that tell you when you say "majority"?

[Kurmewal]

For every brainwashed Shehbaz, you have a Levanaye Zalmay who is a critical thinker

Unfortunately, he is an athiest.

[haviZsultan]

False. Let me tell you what the ground reality in Karachi is : Pukhtuns for the most part, dont give a damn about Pakistan since they are more concerned about getting food in their stomachs. For every brainwashed Shehbaz, you have a Levanaye Zalmay who is a critical thinker. He is single handedly responsible for scaring hundreds of Defence pk members away from here, since they couldnt refute what he was saying. You may check our archives for further elaboration. Unfortunately, you wish that was the reality. A quick trip down to Sohrab goth will prove otherwise.

I think insults and abuse would have been more of a reason due to which they were driven away. When someone calls you traitor to your race all the time and abuses your country it leaves an impression on your mind that you are unwelcome. I will ask son of mountains why he quit. Hopefully he can enlighten me.

I do not agree that this is the situation of Karachi or of any other part of Pakhtunkhwa. Lets make a deal. Come to Pakhtunkhwa and make a speech calling for the division of Pakistan in a Pashtun area and have Pashtuns confirming to the idea and I will accept your claims.

Though I agree that many don't care about defending Pakistan or Pashtunistan argument in any such debate basically because their basic wants are food clothes and shelter.

[Kurmewal]

I think insults and abuse would have been more of a reason due to which they were driven away. When someone calls you traitor to your race all the time and abuses your country it leaves an impression on your mind that you are unwelcome. I will ask son of mountains why he quit. Hopefully he can enlighten me.

I do not agree that this is the situation of Karachi or of any other part of Pakhtunkhwa. Lets make a deal. Come to Pakhtunkhwa and make a speech calling for the division of Pakistan in a Pashtun area and have Pashtuns confirming to the idea and I will accept your claims.

Though I agree that many don't care about defending Pakistan or Pashtunistan argument in any such debate basically because their basic wants are food clothes and shelter.

If you talk to Son of Mountains, ask him why he banned me, Amir al Ghaznavi and Graveyardofempires among many others from here on that forum. Only becuase we are Afghans.

[Admin Khan]

I think insults and abuse would have been more of a reason due to which they were driven away.

False once again, boy you are on a roll today. Pakistanis that were raised in Pakistan, for the most part, can't critically think. Which is why they get upset when they are forced to think against what they were taught since grade school, through various methods of indoctrination. I can assure you none were insulted, and when such scenarios arose, justice was instantaneously serviced. I, however, was criticized[archives of this are available]for allowing them to post here. You want to know what the state of the forum was at that time? An array of Punjabis posting here, and me giving them the voice simply because I believe in freedom of speech. I was criticized, to the fullest -- and in fact many Pukhtun nationalists left the board because unlike racist sites like Defence pk, that instantly bans members for criticizing or even daring to challenge the false,self-defeating Pakistani ideology, I let them rock & roll here. However, members like Levanaye Zalmaye, Pir_Rokhan, Nadir Shah, Wrayun, Ijaz Yousafzai and an array of others gave them a run for their money. It got to a point where they began trolling, posting insults, and attacks since they couldn't formulate any more logical points. All these discussions can easily be found, start by searching for Pakistani nationalist. The same way I am making you think, in a professional way, many pressed others. Now say for example, you decide to run away[which I sincerely hope you don't, like Son of Mountains], cause you can't handle the heat from tor_khan, one wouldn't call that insults. It would perhaps mean you need to take more philosophy courses to learn the difference between a doxa, and an argument with logical reasoning.

When someone calls you traitor to your race all the time and abuses your country it leaves an impression on your mind that you are unwelcome.

If someone calls you a traitor, with evidence offered, or constructively criticizes your nation with evidence, you shouldn't perceive that an an insult. In fact, you remind me of Israelis right now. As soon as their nation is criticized, they tout and begin their chest-thumping sirens as to how they are the only democracy in the middle east.

I will ask son of mountains why he quit. Hopefully he can enlighten me.

I still have his private messages, where he was on his knees begging me to ban members like Levanaye Zalmaye and others for criticizing his nation. He was so brainwashed, that even the idea of questioning Pakistan was an insult to him. To his defense, I along with tor_khan have banned many Afghan nationalists that were incredibly anti-Pakistani. He however, just simply couldn't take any heat. He wanted me to censor stuff, and that's something I can't do. This isn't Pakistan, where if you challenge the military brass you get shot & dead. I told him to report posts that he finds as 'insults' and I will take care of it. I've deleted thousands of 'insults' and I'm sure even Talal can vouch for this. I've stayed as neutral as possible. But, if someone wants to criticize the ISI, or for Pakistan being an international headache, then the aforementioned shouldn't be deemed as an insult. Pakistan isn't a holy state, it was founded in a divide and conquer manner, and it's first ISI chief speaks for it's self.

I do not agree that this is the situation of Karachi or of any other part of Pakhtunkhwa.

I've been to Karachi, so I know what I am talking about. We both have the right to have opinions.

Lets make a deal. Come to Pakhtunkhwa and make a speech calling for the division of Pakistan in a Pashtun area and have Pashtuns confirming to the idea and I will accept your claims.

Lol, what a joke. Obviously they wouldn't want to join a fractured Afghanistan, simply because it offers them nothing. That, logically speaking, doesn't negate the fact that a Pashtun in Karachi, views a Pashtun in let's say Jalalabad as his brother, not a mere a countryman. I can provide with a bunch of evidence that solidifies the notion that they consider themselves Afghans. For instance, ANP, at nearly every single one of their rallies, chant "LAR AW BAR YAW AFGHAN". Look it up, and educate yourself on what that means. Better yet, attend one of their jirgas and ask em what they view themselves. I remember in Karachi, they even began chanting this for a good 1 minute in Clifton. It would be just as interested if you conduct a show, and claim that Pashtuns of Afghanistan are different than Pashtuns of Pakistan, expect a nice little shake down.

With all due respect Havi, what you fail to understand, for whatever reason, is the following:

As soon as a Pukhtun is educated, he wants to research his background. Today is the age of modern technology, it takes 1 Google search query to find out that a proud Pashtun of Pukhtunkhwa once said:

Pull out your sword and slay any one, that says Pashtun and Afghan are not one! Arabs know this and so do Romans: Afghans are Pashtuns, Pashtuns are Afghans!

So in short, if you deny that Pashtuns!=Afghan, you would be slayed. While you are at it, ask any Pukhtun what they think of Khushal Khan baba. It take a split minute, for any Pukhtun, to realize that the very label Pukhtun/Pashtun/Pathan means Afghan. In fact, the very language they speak is known as Afghani, by most historians. So there is absolutely nothing Punjabis, Sindhis or Belgians could do about the obvious, which is Lar and bar are one, and that is why the opposed a border between them.

If you ever visit Quetta, let me know how much it feels like "Pakistan". There is no border between the two nations. In fact, it is more easier for an Afghan to cross, than it is for a Punjabi, Sindhi, Hazara or Tajik, go figure out way. You can sit in Karachi, or a foreign nation and deny this all you want, but I beg of you to go and figure out ground realities, not by your "Pathan friends". I mean, Musharraf yelled to "seal" the border and every Pukhtun party said "No bhai, not happening". We have connections across the border Havi, it's not like Punjabis of India and Pakistan, where they share nothing. We aren't mere 'cousins' we are one.

Though I agree that many don't care about defending Pakistan or Pashtunistan argument in any such debate basically because their basic wants are food clothes and shelter.

That is what I just said. Your fantasy of Pashtuns being these fierce patriotic Pakistanis that will kill someone if they insult Pakistan is nothing but a joke.

The Pakistani military, has sold the Pashtun nation for some financial aid and new military technology. Go visit Waziristan, and ask any Pukhtun what they think of this so called Banana republic of Pakistan.

[Admin Khan]

HELLO!Tor_Khan is from Pashtunkhwa. Levanaye Zalmaye is from Pashtunkhwa. DaMalakndGhar is from Pashtunkhwa. Soldat is (his own words, not mine) from Pashtunkhwa. Khyberkhan, Adamyousafzai, etc. all these people and many more are from KP. I myself was also raised there.None of these people support Pakistan.Infact, on this forum, currently only Shehbaz Khan does.What does that tell you when you say "majority"?

Oh no, they are all from Afghanistan! A Pashtun of Pakistan would never challenge Pakistan, or dare question it! You are wrong Kurmewal, my Pathan friends whose uncle is in the ISI told me Pashtuns of Pakistan are very patriotic, despite us selling them for F16s, or blowing their heads away to serve our masters. Anytime we need money, we blow up 50 Pukhtuns of Wana, and claim they were terrorists. We receive billions a year for it, so hey, since they have such high birthrate, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Pashtuns per year isn't much of a problem. The next time you claim tor_khan, or Soldat hail from Pakistan, I will ban you since that is not true.

//An ordinary rant that one can expect from an average Pakistani student, who has been taught to never criticize the state.

[Alchemist]

ISI's war against Soviets.

LOL

you are funny.

[Michin Khel]

HELLO!Tor_Khan is from Pashtunkhwa. Levanaye Zalmaye is from Pashtunkhwa. DaMalakndGhar is from Pashtunkhwa. Soldat is (his own words, not mine) from Pashtunkhwa. Khyberkhan, Adamyousafzai, etc. all these people and many more are from KP. I myself was also raised there.None of these people support Pakistan.Infact, on this forum, currently only Shehbaz Khan does.What does that tell you when you say "majority"?

Kurma is river in bannu. On the basis of a track record of a member who use bannuchi and wazir/mehsud so often, i fear you might be that multiple account user who is curruntly active as bharti.
Let me correct you.
1- leavanay zalmay is from karachi, so is shehbaz khan. Though both actually belong to KP.
2- malakandghar is from canada.
3- soldat , adam, khyber khan are from UK.

the pashtuns who truely represent pashtuns of pakhtunkhwa are shehbaz khan , sher khan aka exapzai of swabi who is absent, nokia afridi, leavanaz zalmay and luffy of lakki and few more who were not that prominent.
the pashtuns who are originally from KP but live in west are like that old school kiliwal, saying nigah and shyt like habshi on his video against toramana and soldat...sorry to say they dont represent kp, and neither is this havisultan who i think also live in a westren country and is worse than you guys in a sense that he doesnt know A,B,C about pashtuns but is writing book about them...which is dangerous, God knows what kind of non-sense he would write about us.

[Kurmewal]

Oh no, they are all from Afghanistan! A Pashtun of Pakistan would never challenge Pakistan, or dare question it! You are wrong Kurmewal, my Pathan friends whose uncle is in the ISI told me Pashtuns of Pakistan are very patriotic, despite us selling them for F16s, or blowing their heads away to serve our masters. Anytime we need money, we blow up 50 Pukhtuns of Wana, and claim they were terrorists. We receive billions a year for it, so hey, since they have such high birthrate, killing hundreds of thousands of innocent Pashtuns per year isn't much of a problem. The next time you claim tor_khan, or Soldat hail from Pakistan, I will ban you since that is not true.

//An ordinary rant that one can expect from an average Pakistani student, who has been taught to never criticize the state.

Nice immitation, Admin Khan. That is exactly how they are "programmed". An example is Luffy. Obviously, this Bharati cannot be a real Indian - that would be too much for him to handle. So he comes to the conclusion that I am Bharti.

[Kurmewal]

Kurma is river in bannu. On the basis of a track record of a member who use bannuchi and wazir/mehsud so often, i fear you might be that multiple account user who is curruntly active as bharti.
Let me correct you.
1- leavanay zalmay is from karachi, so is shehbaz khan. Though both actually belong to KP.
2- malakandghar is from canada.
3- soldat , adam, khyber khan are from UK.

the pashtuns who truely represent pashtuns of pakhtunkhwa are shehbaz khan , sher khan aka exapzai of swabi who is absent, nokia afridi, leavanaz zalmay and luffy of lakki and few more who were not that prominent.
the pashtuns who are originally from KP but live in west are like that old school kiliwal, saying nigah and shyt like habshi on his video against toramana and soldat...sorry to say they dont represent kp, and neither is this havisultan who i think also live in a westren country and is worse than you guys in a sense that he doesnt know A,B,C about pashtuns but is writing book about them...which is dangerous, God knows what kind of non-sense he would write about us.

Kurma = Kurram Agency, and I am the person you are referring to. I am not however, "Bharti". I ask any mod/admin to kindly explain to my old friend Jawwad here that I am not this Bharti person. He/she is a real Indian.I represent me and I am in the West and have been for 2 years. Before that, I was in Pakistan like you. And I am not a "habshi". You are right about HaviZSultan. Also, notice how the only people you have named as "representatives of Pashtunkhwa..." are the ones who share your views. Quetta is Pashtunkhwa. Ask anyone in there if they are "Pakistani".