Split Discussion: Identity, Nationality and Being Pashtun

[khushal]

wishful thinking.


as much as id like to think this to be true, it isn't and won't be true unless the area is administered by afghanistan and the paki flags are replaced by afghan ones.

if the emirate couldn't even subdue the whole of afghanistan at the height of its power, its prospects of taking land away from pakistan is non existent.

paki flags in FATA? where did you get this from?

[Alchemist]

Even a stronger Afghanistan, I doubt would change the loyalty of the Pakhtun to his homeland. Its like saying that Muslims should support Saudi Arabia no matter what just because it has the masjid al haram.
.

Muslim do support Saudi Arabia just because masjid al haramain is there.
Even if the government is corrupt and the leadership illegitimate, the holiness of the two sites is unquestionable. So if mecca were attacked tomorrow, it falls upon every muslim to defend it.

When it is obvious and true that the ISI has been a constant threat to the interests of Afghanistan, you can't say that Pakistani and Pashtun interests are aligned. It is in the interest of Pakistan that all pashtuns become assimilated with the rest of Pakistan. So if Pakistan succeeds, then in another 30 years there won't be any "Pakistani Pashtuns" left...there will just be Pakistani.

Nationalism is the new religion. What are the interests of Pakistan? It can barely support it self as a legitimate government, let alone support the interests of Pashtuns. So far in this "war on terror", the majority of the victims of CIA drone attacks in Pakistan have been Pashtuns. It is in the interest of Pakistan to keep America as an ally. But what benefits the Pashtun from such an unholy alliance? Pakistan doesn't care for pashtuns or afghans. Our loss is their gain and everyone knows that but you.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

well said

[haviZsultan]

paki flags in FATA? where did you get this from?

Pakistan Day celebrated in KP, FATA
PESHAWAR: Pakistan Day was celebrated with traditional fervour and enthusiasm in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other cantonments of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

A statement issued by Inter-Services Public Relations said that the celebration began with 21-gun salute at the provincial capital and special prayers were offered at all mosques for peace, prosperity and solidarity of the motherland.

It further said that tribal people from all walks of life joined the Pakistan Army, Frontier Corps and political administration in the celebrations in all the major tribal areas including Wana and Miranshah.

A volleyball match was also played between a local team and Pakistan Army at Wana. The Pakistan Army also organised a free medical camp at Miranshah where more than 700 patients were provided treatment. Declamation contests in connection with the importance of the day were also held in local schools, in which students and parents participated. Local ulema also celebrated the day along with the Pakistan Army and said that they would extend all-out support to the military to eradicate militancy from the country. staff report

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2011/03/24/story_24-3-2011_pg7_15

^^^^^^^^
I know some Afghans are taught Pashtuns here are waiting for them to "liberate" them... the fact is they have become a part of Pakistani society and are proud of their identity.

[haviZsultan]

Muslim do support Saudi Arabia just because masjid al haramain is there.
Even if the government is corrupt and the leadership illegitimate, the holiness of the two sites is unquestionable. So if mecca were attacked tomorrow, it falls upon every muslim to defend it.

When it is obvious and true that the ISI has been a constant threat to the interests of Afghanistan, you can't say that Pakistani and Pashtun interests are aligned. It is in the interest of Pakistan that all pashtuns become assimilated with the rest of Pakistan. So if Pakistan succeeds, then in another 30 years there won't be any "Pakistani Pashtuns" left...there will just be Pakistani.

Nationalism is the new religion. What are the interests of Pakistan? It can barely support it self as a legitimate government, let alone support the interests of Pashtuns. So far in this "war on terror", the majority of the victims of CIA drone attacks in Pakistan have been Pashtuns. It is in the interest of Pakistan to keep America as an ally. But what benefits the Pashtun from such an unholy alliance? Pakistan doesn't care for pashtuns or afghans. Our loss is their gain and everyone knows that but you.

I was talking about policy. But lets ignore that.

I do not agree with your logic.

Fine Pakistan has tried to influence Afghanistan and has constantly interfered in the country.

But you and many of your friends follow a linear logic when they claim that Afghans are somehow equal to Pashtuns and Pakistani Pashtuns don't even count. Afghans=Pashtuns just like shadowgovernor's famous logic Taliban=Pashtuns=Muslims. Which is false logic. So if ISI used the Afghans it necessarily didn't use the Pashtuns.

What are you trying to say? Are you doubting the Pashtun-ness of the Pakistani Pashtun because he believes in Pakistan. Is that why by some magic in 30 years he will disappear?

You Afghans often claim we are saying what we have been taught in our textbooks "in Pakistani education" but perhaps the Afghan too has been taught that the Pashtun in Pakistan is oppressed and somehow needs the Afghans help? No? Then I don't understand the statement.

So for a second lets even claim that Pakistan has been bad to 12 million Afghan Pashtuns (thats ignoring the fact that if they have been bad to Pashtuns they have also been bad to Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbek who are another 16-17 million.) Then there are 30 million Pashtuns in Pakistan more than twice your number who actually took part in ISI's war against Soviets. So it can't be said they have oppressed all Pashtuns and Pashtuns had no part in it. Pashtuns on Pakistanis side=Pakistanis. So we all had a role if Afghanistan has been wronged.

And it is in no way in Pakistan's interest to allow drone strikes on its own people and land and in the process alienate its own people. The government is taking an unpopular decision not just with the Pashtuns but with all races in Pakistan. Are you trying to say Pakistan wants to see Pashtuns rebel? That would be like saying Pakistan has gone insane and wants to shoot itself in the foot.

I think Afghans have been taught to look at Pakistan as an enemy of Pashtuns. Of course when Pashtuns from Pakistani side refute the logic of from some ultra nationalists from that side they are calling children of british , ISI agent etc.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

lol sultan... who are you? As in, you're not even a Pashtun and you claim to speak on our behalf?

Secondly, what homeland and what loyalty are you talking about here? Pakistan was made on the idea that all Muslims are one nation. Then why are two Pashtuns not one nation? If a Hindustani like yourself and a Pashtun from Waziristan can be "one nation" then why can't a Pashtun from Herat and a Pashtun from Attock be one nation? After all, they have more in common with each other than they have with you.

Secondly, the Pakistan movement was weak in Pashtun areas because the two-nation theory didn't make any sense to an area where 97% of the people were Muslim. In your Punjab and UP, you were split between different religions but the Pashtuns were overwhelmingly Muslim. They weren't afraid of any Hindu hegemony. And as was mentioned earlier, the entire Pashtun leadership from Chitral to Bolan was jailed and side-lined by Jinnah's government and replaced by corrupt landlords who would support Pakistan in exchange for Muslim League tickets.

Pakistan is a country made out of several nations. Out of those nations, only Punjab divided itself voluntarily. The division of the Pashtuns and Baloch was involuntary. When you talk about 'Afghans', you talk about a country that is overwhelmingly Pashtun and we Pashtuns see them as our kith and kin. While Pashtuns can see Punjabis and Hindustanis as their fellow countrymen, the historical, linguistic, racial, cultural, religious and blood bond that the lar ao bar Pashtun nation has with each other will always be stronger and more natural.

"Pakistan" is a mere idea and it will one day, like all other ideological states, collapse. Nations, on the other hand, do not collapse because they cannot disintegrate.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

The Pakistani constitution does recognize it as a part of Pakistan and that's why the representatives of that area are sitting in the National Assembly of Pakistan not some other country.

Now .. let's not get into this debate :-P

But there is such a big debate to be had over there Shahbaz Jana...

The rights that the Pakistani constitution extends to the rest of its citizens have been institutionally taken away from the people of FATA (via the FCR, which is STILL not repealed). The federal government has built not a single university there (and you can't blame ANP for this - they have no authority there). Instead, the area was systematically radicalized and destroyed by Islamabad during the 80s and 90s.

And are the FATA MNAs elected or selected? You know the answer to this one, too...

[Admin Khan]

The educated Pashtun from Karachi has spoken. I wonder what now.

[haviZsultan]

lol sultan... who are you? As in, you're not even a Pashtun and you claim to speak on our behalf?

Oh please stop using the non-pashtun card. From my posts anyone can tell I care about the plight of Pashtuns.

And how do you know I am not Pashtun? Have I said so? I'm from Karachi, yes but the city has 3 million Pashtuns. If I didn't say I'm Pashtun I didn't say i'm not either. Plus its the thought that counts. I want to be known as someone who cares for the Pashtun.

Za Pakistani yam. Thats what I want to be known as. Think global, not local. Talo Pakhto razi? Now there you go what non pashtun would speak pashto even if it is screwed up pashto. As I said I may be third generation. Again I will not say i am Pashtun. I will let you play with that. If it annoys some people here to the extent that they constantly have to play the I'm more Pashtun than you card I can't do anything.

Secondly, what homeland and what loyalty are you talking about here? Pakistan was made on the idea that all Muslims are one nation. Then why are two Pashtuns not one nation? If a Hindustani like yourself and a Pashtun from Waziristan can be "one nation" then why can't a Pashtun from Herat and a Pashtun from Attock be one nation? After all, they have more in common with each other than they have with you.

Muslims=one nation does not mean pashtuns=one nation. It means Pashtuns being muslims should be with the arabs, punjabis
Pakistani Pashtuns don't have any problems with that. At least the non-racist ones. I think Pashtuns are one nation in another sense. They think of each other as brothers but not necessarily in a sense where they do not agree with Pakistan.

We shouldn't have such problems with other races in our land. If they should lets see the afghans leave the hazara tajik and uzbek and we can talk.

Secondly, the Pakistan movement was weak in Pashtun areas because the two-nation theory didn't make any sense to an area where 97% of the people were Muslim. In your Punjab and UP, you were split between different religions but the Pashtuns were overwhelmingly Muslim. They weren't afraid of any Hindu hegemony. And as was mentioned earlier, the entire Pashtun leadership from Chitral to Bolan was jailed and side-lined by Jinnah's government and replaced by corrupt landlords who would support Pakistan in exchange for Muslim League tickets.

The Pashtuns areas were the keenest to accept Pakistan as their country. Muslim sentiment was high among the Pashtun. India Muslim League won the elections in what was then called NWFP. 3/4 people in the now or never movement were pashtuns calling for independent Pakistan (not succession to Afghanistan). Abdul rab nishtar and many leaders of the freedom movement were Pashtuns.

They were very afraid of Indian hegemony. Nehru nearly got killed when he tried to give a speech in Pakhtunkhwa by stone pelting mobs.

But I understand you believe a different truth. If u scroll down and look at my posts at badmashkhel you will realise that this is a result of Afghans and Pakistani Pashtuns being part of differing histories. For hundreds of years our side went through a different experience than Afghanistan.

Pakistan is a country made out of several nations. Out of those nations, only Punjab divided itself voluntarily. The division of the Pashtuns and Baloch was involuntary. When you talk about 'Afghans', you talk about a country that is overwhelmingly Pashtun and we Pashtuns see them as our kith and kin. While Pashtuns can see Punjabis and Hindustanis as their fellow countrymen, the historical, linguistic, racial, cultural, religious and blood bond that the lar ao bar Pashtun nation has with each other will always be stronger and more natural.

Afghanistan is similar to Pakistan. It is made of Hazara, Tajik and Uzbek. There was a vote wroar. A vote. NWFP was overwhelmingly in favor of Muslim league in 45 elections. You don't know the Pakistani Pashtuns history because you have been taught to look at only Afghan history.

The bond will be strong. But not strong enough to break the Pashtun from his home country. Actually Pakistani Pashtuns want it to remain strong. We Pakistanis want it to remain strong. But if people try to divide us from our land using the fake argument of Pashtun Nationalism or any other I fear that bond risks going into the dustbin.

"Pakistan" is a mere idea and it will one day, like all other ideological states, collapse. Nations, on the other hand, do not collapse because they cannot disintegrate.

Have you noticed how dreams rarely come true. Living on dreams of the other Nation disappearing will only serve to weaken Afghanistan. Instead concentrate on developing your land- perhaps then such ideas will disappear automatically.

Maybe thats a dream too.

[haviZsultan]

The educated Pashtun from Karachi has spoken. I wonder what now.

Hes from Karachi?

[haviZsultan]

But there is such a big debate to be had over there Shahbaz Jana...

The rights that the Pakistani constitution extends to the rest of its citizens have been institutionally taken away from the people of FATA (via the FCR, which is STILL not repealed). The federal government has built not a single university there (and you can't blame ANP for this - they have no authority there). Instead, the area was systematically radicalized and destroyed by Islamabad during the 80s and 90s.

And are the FATA MNAs elected or selected? You know the answer to this one, too...

Maverick friend of mine- lol.

No one denies there have been injustices in #Pakistan. There is also no denying that these injustices are not confined to just one race.

By keeping FATA underdeveloped and inaccessable to the rest of the population (+ allowing gun culture to develop since the 1980's) the government made a huge mistake. A mistake that has alienated the people of FATA and some in Pakhtunkhwa.

But I don't know why we even think that being outside the union of #Pakistan is going to solve even quarter of our problems. This disbelief in the state of Pakistan from our own people, on this side has frustrated me. Afghans will say what they have been taught but how are our people being so naive? Pashtuns fought for this land and created it and by fighting against it some Pashtuns are undoing the work of their ancestors.

What makes you think if Pashtuns like other races don't have rights today won't ever get them?

And eventually Pashtuns got the right to name their province themselves. What makes you think FATA will remain an inaccessible area?

One day they will get the right to make FATA a province and start development work there. Here is some good news. Pashtuns will get their rights. People of Mingora had been demanding university for years and they got it recently.

University approved in FATA


Peshawar, The government has approved establishment of a university in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (Fata) with an estimated cost of Rs3 billion and work on the project will be started soon. Director Education, Fata, Fazal Manan said this during a presentation to the Governor Masood Kausar on education sector development in tribal areas, according to a handout here on Tuesday.

Mr Manan said that Rs2680.129 million had been allocated for the Fata education during the current financial year, which was the highest ever outlay for education sector in tribal areas. He said that under different schemes, the tribal students were being awarded scholarships worth about Rs1 billion annually.

Additional chief secretary, Fata, Fazal Karim and governor’s secretary Sikandar Qayyum were also present on the occasion. Speaking on the occasion, the governor said that promotion of quality education in Fata was the government’s priority. He directed efficient monitoring of schools to check the trend of absenteeism.

He noted that female literacy ratio was very low that needed to be enhanced to a considerable level. On a point concerning teaching staff shortage, he said that the issue would be raised with the federal government. He stressed the importance of extra-curricular activities in schools and directed for provision of sports facilities in educational institutions of tribal areas.

During the presentation, the governor was also informed that in certain areas schools had been closed due to law and order problems and these would be opened after peace was restored. About closure of community schools, Mr Manan said that these schools were closed in December last year for being found non-functional. However, a survey is being carried out through local committees and feasible schools would be reopened, he said.

The total number of schools in Fata is 5,620, including 41 colleges and nearly 300 high and higher secondary schools.

http://www.ilmkidunya.com/edunews/un...fata-5895.aspx

But if our people begin to act like they want to cede themselves to Afghanistan or divide the land it will only cause more discrimination. No one wants to help those who don't believe in Pakistan. I am not saying it should be that way. I am saying thats how the center thinks even Nationalistic Pashtuns. Even I would help the Nationalist Pakhtun first.

[tor_khan]

Za Pakistani yam. Thats what I want to be known as. Think global, not local. Talo Pakhto razi? Now there you go what non pashtun would speak pashto even if it is screwed up pashto. As I said I may be third generation. Again I will not say i am Pashtun. I will let you play with that. If it annoys some people here to the extent that they constantly have to play the I'm more Pashtun than you card I can't do anything.

Read the bold type then consider: Za Pashtun yam. That's what I want to be known as.

Muslims=one nation does not mean pashtuns=one nation. It means Pashtuns being muslims should be with the arabs, punjabis
Pakistani Pashtuns don't have any problems with that. At least the non-racist ones. I think Pashtuns are one nation in another sense. They think of each other as brothers but not necessarily in a sense where they do not agree with Pakistan.

Again read the bold type. And then consider if what you've written could be argued to be totally false.

Oh please stop using the non-pashtun card. From my posts anyone can tell I care about the plight of Pashtuns.

Most here are open minded enough to not hold your non-Pashtun status against you. However, from your posts I deduct one thing first: your agenda is not the plight of Pashtuns; it is the promotion of your view of Pashtuns. These are two separate things that do not necessarily align.

[Admin Khan]

Hes from Karachi?

Culture shock? It doesnt take an educated Pashtun long to realize the contradictions Pakistan is based and found upon. To answer your question, yes he is.

[khushal]

Pakistan Day celebrated in KP, FATA
PESHAWAR: Pakistan Day was celebrated with traditional fervour and enthusiasm in the Federally Administered Tribal Areas and other cantonments of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa.

A statement issued by Inter-Services Public Relations said that the celebration began with 21-gun salute at the provincial capital and special prayers were offered at all mosques for peace, prosperity and solidarity of the motherland.

It further said that tribal people from all walks of life joined the Pakistan Army, Frontier Corps and political administration in the celebrations in all the major tribal areas including Wana and Miranshah.

A volleyball match was also played between a local team and Pakistan Army at Wana. The Pakistan Army also organised a free medical camp at Miranshah where more than 700 patients were provided treatment. Declamation contests in connection with the importance of the day were also held in local schools, in which students and parents participated. Local ulema also celebrated the day along with the Pakistan Army and said that they would extend all-out support to the military to eradicate militancy from the country. staff report


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...-3-2011_pg7_15

^^^^^^^^
I know some Afghans are taught Pashtuns here are waiting for them to "liberate" them... the fact is they have become a part of Pakistani society and are proud of their identity.

this does not answer the flag question. can anyone answer the flag question?

[Admin Khan]

Khushal, Pashtuns of FATA are a great commodity for Islamabad. Slaughtering our people= newer aircrafts. It alwaya make me laugh when you have these pseudo nationalists claiming they are full fledged Pakistanis. Anybody who thinks they are patriotic to Islamabad needs to visit the area.