Split Discussion: Identity, Nationality and Being Pashtun

[haviZsultan]

That post wasn't serious. It was meant as a joke.

Anyways I assume that when you speak of "WE", you mean pashtuns.

Now as a proud Pashtun and Pakistani, what would you do if there was conflict of interest between Afghanistan (50% pashtuns) and Pakistan (50% punjabi and 15% pashtun)?

See there is no reason-not even inkling to believe Afghanistan is actually somehow "more Pashtun" than Pakistan-or no you won't like the word Pakistan so say Pakhtunkhwa. What makes the Afghans more Pashtun than Pashtuns on this side. Is it the same logic that they have urdu influence. What about Afghans who have to speak dari to communicate. Farsi influence isn't it?

Lets look at the demographics. Pakistan is 16% Pashtun yes but the simple reality is we have 30 Million Pashtuns. Afghanistan has 12 Million. So who should join who. The bigger population join the country with smaller number of Pashtuns or smaller country should join the one with bigger number?

Then lets look at Pashtun culture. Peshawarites, Swatians, people of Nowshera, Charsadda have a Pashto movie industry, fashion industry, embroidiery, arts. The Pashtun areas of Afghanistan instead have been ravaged by the Talibs who have refused to let culture develop. So the reality which those on the other side of the Durrand line will never admit is that Pashtuns on this side are culturally stronger than the ones on that side. You may deny this. If so then this is a divide between the Pakistani Pashtun and Afghan one. Who will bridge this divide?

Then there is the mullah crowd. I have learned that Afghans seem to be more conservative than us Karachite of Peshawari city dwellers ever since I came to this forum. What will it be? The whip for us? Don't hang out with female college friends, don't do this, don't do that? I'll throw acid on your face if you marry outside the family. Or I'll hang you upside down if you want to marry a non-pashtun girl and love her.

What would I do? I would stick with Pakistan because there is no proof Afghanistan is more "Pashtun" than Pakistan. Just saying Afghan=Pashtun won't make you more Pashtun than ones on this side so its time to stop doubting the Pashtun-ness of Pashtuns here.

Don't reply with the usual that we are all muslims bhai bahi, In an ideal world there would be no conflict of interests and we would all get along but in the real world and due to unfortunate and un natural borders set up by colonial powers, there have been conflicts of interests between Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Durand Line is one of the main reasons why this bhai bhai dream has been shattered.

I do not reply with the Muslim=bhai bhai equation. I have given up on that equation a long time ago. I know in reality Muslim-bhai bhai never works which is why I support secularism. Pakistans logic for supporting the Mujahideen in Afghan Soviet war was Muslim bhai bhai. Now Afghans hate us. Look where this Muslim bhai bhai led us. Our countries were supposed to be best friends. It hurts to look at things now. And this may not go down well but its mostly those on Afghan side who are responsible for the division. They can't accept our Pakistaniness. 60 years is enough to become loyal to your nation. Move on!

The durrand line is just a line. It does not exist in the heart of the Pashtun. The line cannot divide two brothers. Unless one of the brothers does not accept the other brother and calls him a Paki slave.

Don't you think that all pashtuns are better off in one nations state where they represent the majority? If pashtun dominated areas of Pakistan join Afghanistan then Afghanistan becomes 70%+ pashtun or an independent pashtunistan 90%+ pashtun.

Pashtuns here don't want to give up Pakistan. Unity can only be achieved by Afghanistan and Pakistan uniting as one entity. Will Afghans accept it or will they call us a British this, British that.

Plus what does Afghanistan have to offer? Jobs, education? GDP per capita under $1000 when the average Pashtun in Pak has $2500?

What guarantee is there that Pashtuns on our side won't be discriminated against? Afghans have a problem accepting Peshawar as the capital of Pashtun culture. A week ago people claimed Peshawar was a den of kaffirs and like heera mandi. They call our people Punjabized, Urduized when they are themselves children of Farsiwan.

What should the capital be? Pashtuns here would want Peshawar to be the capital. Its the centre of culture. Its the centre of art, fashion... every Pashtun musician starts his career from here.... why not Peshawar? Why Kandahar? Why Khost? Why Kabul? Plus Peshawar has more Pashtun population than even Kabul.

What about the Taliban blowing Pashtuns up? We can't deal with Taliban which of our problems can we solve in independent Pashtunistan? Are we dreaming?

Plus this never works. When you try to shove a race into one country. Check out what happened to Woodraw Wilson's self determination. Now there are Roma, Czech, Austrians, Romanians, Hungarians all spread out across Europe like a plague. Despite trying to put all of them in a country for their own ethnic group they are not in one country belonging to their ethnic group. How do we know there won't be Hazaras or Kohistanis (Remember eastern provinces have these races and neither identify as Pashtun) in our new country and what makes you think that after lets say for a second Pakistani Pashtuns want to be part in such a venture these races will want to be in it too.

I mean these kinds of posts, these hard questions do not go down well with Afghans so Pakistani Pashtuns avoid talking about the reasons due to which they are not really interested in this Pro-Pashtunistan stuff but it only makes them seem like weak Pashtuns when they are not.

But this is the reality. Please review those questions and without bias think of them. What reasons do we have to form Pashtunistan? Do we have any accept racism issues?

Do you think in the long run pashtuns in Afghanistan and Pakistan can withstand the cultural onslaught of more advanced Urdu and Farsi? Both these languages have more resources and more speakers.

What do you think is the best way to safegaurd pashtun culture, language, heritage etc?

Pashto language is spoken by what 45 Million people. Why are we even thinking along these lines. If some of us (2nd or 3rd generation) are forgetting then so what... there are still millions. The same is happening to Punjabi speakers, sindhi speakers and even urdu speakers as they adopt English. Its the way of the world. See our thinking has been corrupted. All we see are threats everywhere, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, American, The world... This insecurity should end.

But if Pashtuns are so concerned about their culture disappearing (which is likely never to happen) they need to do something. Not sit on their asses and complain.

I think there are several ways to safeguard Pashtun culture:
1) Pashtuns in KP and FATA have to push for cultural shows showing Pashtun heritage, dress etc. Our different cultures, our languages, our traditions make up Pakistan. Therefore everything should be done to keep the cultures and traditions within the country alive.
2) Form and join Pashtun cultural associations to develop culture, art, music etc. Being dedicated to the Pashtun cause I would host one myself.
3) Push for Pashto to be taught in colleges and universities in Pakhtunkhwa and FATA plus have optional Pashto courses in other provinces of Pakistan. As you can see this can be done by political parties in Pakistan. Theres no reason Pashtuns can't achieve this.

In the whole contexts of things, pakistan can easily become in to three different countries, KP and Baluchistan can form one country, while Punjab/Sindh can form another and Dardic areas up north can become (Dardistan)

Look at this mohajir telling others what they should do. Ran to Pakistan like coward when Indian mobs were attacking him. Now talking about breaking Pakistan.

Have these people begun making you think they are the majority? That every Pashtun is so foolish they don't know how senseless this Ultra Nationalist Pashtunistan stuff is? ^^^^ Read all that, my response to Badmashkhel. That is the Pakistani Pashtuns response to any talk of division of his land.

Defend nahi kar sakta mulk ko torwa to matt mulk ko.

The only way in which Balochistan, KP can become another country is:
1) If the majority of people in these regions WANT to be another country.
2) If, as damalakandghar stated, there is a genocide. If our idiot leaders happen to repeat the mistakes of 1971 again.
3) And whatever is said on this forum. Pashtuns in Pakistan are more patriotic than our most hated neighbors-the so-called evil Punjabis. You plan to kick these Pashtuns out of their own land? The Pakistani Pashtuns are not properly represented on this forum yet but this doesn't mean they won't me. I'll throw in some of my own effort to ensure the Pakistani Pashtun voice comes forward.

[badmash_khel]

See there is no reason-not even inkling to believe Afghanistan is actually somehow "more Pashtun" than Pakistan-or no you won't like the word Pakistan so say Pakhtunkhwa. What makes the Afghans more Pashtun than Pashtuns on this side. Is it the same logic that they have urdu influence. What about Afghans who have to speak dari to communicate. Farsi influence isn't it?

Read my post again, I never implied that pashtuns in Afghanistan are somehow more pashtun than in Pakistan. I have been to Pakhtunkhwa and I am quite familiar with it. I said we are dominated on both sides by more advanced languages, both farsi and urdu.

Lets look at the demographics. Pakistan is 16% Pashtun yes but the simple reality is we have 30 Million Pashtuns. Afghanistan has 12 Million. So who should join who. The bigger population join the country with smaller number of Pashtuns or smaller country should join the one with bigger number?

Conservative estimates put the figure of pashtun population at 42-43% of the Afghan population but they don't count the refugees living in Pakistan and other neighbouring countries. There are at least 1-2 million pashtuns from Afghanistan in Pakistan. The population of Afghanistan is lower than what it should be due to constant war for 30 years. The population should be around 50-60 million. But with peace and security and better standard of living it will happen fairly quickly.

Even if 12 million pashtuns of Afghanistan join pakistan, they would still represent a measly 20% at best. They will still be a minority alongside Sindhis. On the other hand if Pashtuns of Pakistan join Afghanistan they are 70% plus of the population and a majority. Thats just numbers and facts.

Then lets look at Pashtun culture. Peshawarites, Swatians, people of Nowshera, Charsadda have a Pashto movie industry, fashion industry, embroidiery, arts. The Pashtun areas of Afghanistan instead have been ravaged by the Talibs who have refused to let culture develop. So the reality which those on the other side of the Durrand line will never admit is that Pashtuns on this side are culturally stronger than the ones on that side. You may deny this. If so then this is a divide between the Pakistani Pashtun and Afghan one. Who will bridge this divide?

These industries also existed in Afghanistan before the 30 year continous war, with peace and stability the life will return to normal.
I think you are not too familiar with Afghanistan which is why you have some misconceptions. With more stability I encourage you to visit Afghanistan and see for yourself if there is culture there or not.
The Taliban are not just a problem in Afghanistan they rule large parts of Pakistan as well. Its a common phenomenon on both sides of the border. Where ever there is lack of security in both countries Taliban have filled the vaccum. In time Taliban will be gone as well so thats not a major issue.

Then there is the mullah crowd. I have learned that Afghans seem to be more conservative than us Karachite of Peshawari city dwellers ever since I came to this forum. What will it be? The whip for us? Don't hang out with female college friends, don't do this, don't do that? I'll throw acid on your face if you marry outside the family. Or I'll hang you upside down if you want to marry a non-pashtun girl and love her.

You can't generalize like that. I think city dwelling pashtuns have more in common with each other than their rular counterparts. A peshawari pashtun will have similar mentality to a kabuli pashtun and village pashtuns from both sides will have similar mentality. I don't see a difference in level of consirvativeness in both countries.

You are speaking as if there is a big difference between the two countries which is clearly not the case. 90% of the population in both countries are conservative muslims although the farsiwans and punjabis and other ethnicities tend to be more liberal in their thinking than pashtuns on both sides. On both sides Pashtuns have a reputation for being conservative.
I can't speak on behalf of Tallib lovers since I don't like their policies much. I think they are just naive uneducated people who have been caught between a rock and a hard place. They are a product of their circumstances. With more stability and peace, Taliban will dispear naturally. They have a hard life, now who the h3ll wants to live like that?

What would I do? I would stick with Pakistan because there is no proof Afghanistan is more "Pashtun" than Pakistan. Just saying Afghan=Pashtun won't make you more Pashtun than ones on this side so its time to stop doubting the Pashtun-ness of Pashtuns here.

You can stick with Pakistan and thats your choice. We all do things which we think are in our best interest. At the moment I don't think any sane pashtun in Paksitan wants to be part of Afghanistan. Pashtuns in Paksitan have a better standard of living and more peace and stability except maybe tribal areas.

I do not reply with the Muslim=bhai bhai equation. I have given up on that equation a long time ago. I know in reality Muslim-bhai bhai never works which is why I support secularism. Pakistans logic for supporting the Mujahideen in Afghan Soviet war was Muslim bhai bhai. Now Afghans hate us. Look where this Muslim bhai bhai led us. Our countries were supposed to be best friends. It hurts to look at things now. And this may not go down well but its mostly those on Afghan side who are responsible for the division. They can't accept our Pakistaniness. 60 years is enough to become loyal to your nation. Move on!

Afghans don't hate pakistanis, they just don't like the policies of Pakistan's intelligence agencies and corrupt government. The feudal lords and chaudaries who rule Paksitan haven't will whatever to keep the status quo intact. In their quest to safegaurd their interests they have unfortunately supported policies which have been detrimental to Afghanistan. Afghanistan has been treated like a cheeseboard by the neighbours where they play their games, this applies to India, Iran and Russia as well.

Afghans don't hate pakistan because Pakistan helped them against Russians, that doesn't make sense. Why would you hate someone who helped you? Afghans hate pakistani elites because they have tried to subjugate Afghanistan and keep it weak for the fear of Pashtun nationalism and closer ties with India. I don't deny that a weak Afghanistan dependent on Pakistan is in Pakistan's best interest. of course it is and thats what pakistani elites want. This is what I meant by conflict of interests.
Unfortunately the Brits have succeeded in insuring that the muslims of south central asia keep divided on petty issues such as nationalism and fake boundries.

The durrand line is just a line. It does not exist in the heart of the Pashtun. The line cannot divide two brothers. Unless one of the brothers does not accept the other brother and calls him a Paki slave.

Pashtuns here don't want to give up Pakistan. Unity can only be achieved by Afghanistan and Pakistan uniting as one entity. Will Afghans accept it or will they call us a British this, British that.

I agree that the line is insignificant to pashtuns but some people think on each side of this imaginary line people are somehow different from each other. Again you are generalizing that Afghans call paksitani pashtuns "paki slave". This might be true for a few individuals but idiots exist everywhere. This kind of stupidity doesn't just go one way. Pashtuns of Afghanistan have also been on the receiving end of such bigotry when being called "majer", "druggie" and other stupid insults. But thank God majority of the people on both sides are sensible.

Personally I am of the opinion that all muslims of south central asia for a European union style Union which will be made of pashtunistan, khorassan, punjab, Sindh, kashmir, Dardistan, Baltistan, Balochistan and so on. There will be no border between these states and the names would only be to identify the people living in those areas.

Plus what does Afghanistan have to offer? Jobs, education? GDP per capita under $1000 when the average Pashtun in Pak has $2500?

Again, the comparison is not fair as Afghanistan has just been through 30 years of war. Give Afghanistan at least 30 year of peace then a comparison would be fair. I don't denty the facts though.

What guarantee is there that Pashtuns on our side won't be discriminated against? Afghans have a problem accepting Peshawar as the capital of Pashtun culture. A week ago people claimed Peshawar was a den of kaffirs and like heera mandi. They call our people Punjabized, Urduized when they are themselves children of Farsiwan.

lol, why would pashtuns on "your" side will be discriminated against? As you said you are 30 million strong. Its an insult to pashtuns in Pakistan to think like that. Peshawar used to be the winter capital of Afghanistan and kabul the summer capital. Even history is proof that what you said is not credible.

What should the capital be? Pashtuns here would want Peshawar to be the capital. Its the centre of culture. Its the centre of art, fashion... every Pashtun musician starts his career from here.... why not Peshawar? Why Kandahar? Why Khost? Why Kabul? Plus Peshawar has more Pashtun population than even Kabul.

Personally I want the capital to be somewhere in parachinar, khost or somewhere in either Loya Paktiya or Waziristan. These issues are useless and minor.

If a new country like Pakistan have a capital why not pashtunistan?

What about the Taliban blowing Pashtuns up? We can't deal with Taliban which of our problems can we solve in independent Pashtunistan? Are we dreaming?

Taliban are a product of insecurity, corruption and illiteracy and religious extremism. With time Taliban will dissapear but the conservative nature of pashtuns is likely to stay for a while until technology reaches them and they come to the digital age.

Plus this never works. When you try to shove a race into one country. Check out what happened to Woodraw Wilson's self determination. Now there are Roma, Czech, Austrians, Romanians, Hungarians all spread out across Europe like a plague. Despite trying to put all of them in a country for their own ethnic group they are not in one country belonging to their ethnic group. How do we know there won't be Hazaras or Kohistanis (Remember eastern provinces have these races and neither identify as Pashtun) in our new country and what makes you think that after lets say for a second Pakistani Pashtuns want to be part in such a venture these races will want to be in it too.

As I said before a European union style super state where all peoples can be educated in their respective languages is an ideal solution. NO one will feel descriminated against. In hazara areas they can teach about their heroes and culture, in pashtun areas pashtun culture., in punjab, punjabi culture. Together we are similar people with similar background and same faith. It is enough to bind us together and not fight and progress.

But this is the reality. Please review those questions and without bias think of them. What reasons do we have to form Pashtunistan? Do we have any accept racism issues?

The concept of modern state is a European idea from the 1600-1700s. Its not racism or fascism to want to be educated in your mother tonque or to practice your culture at a state level. The European nation state doesn't really work in central south asia as these areas are highly mixed with multiple cultures and languages in close proximity which is not the case in moset of Europe.

Pashto language is spoken by what 45 Million people. Why are we even thinking along these lines. If some of us (2nd or 3rd generation) are forgetting then so what... there are still millions. The same is happening to Punjabi speakers, sindhi speakers and even urdu speakers as they adopt English. Its the way of the world. See our thinking has been corrupted. All we see are threats everywhere, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi, American, The world... This insecurity should end.

But you ignoring the state of pashto language. Pashto is still a backward language where its impossible to write scientific papers in pashto. Its not in a state where it can be implemented as a language of edcuation at higher levels. The only way pashto can advance is by putting it into use in education, culture and all aspects of society. That way it can advance. Otherwise it will just stay a language of villagers and all urbanites will look down their nose on those who speak pashto. This is already happening where in Kabul pashtuns are speaking farsi and consider themselves more advanced while in Peshawar the educated classes like to communiate in urdu or english. Only by advancing pashto it can be associated with prestige and not just for village illiterates.

But if Pashtuns are so concerned about their culture disappearing (which is likely never to happen) they need to do something. Not sit on their asses and complain.

I think there are several ways to safeguard Pashtun culture:
1) Pashtuns in KP and FATA have to push for cultural shows showing Pashtun heritage, dress etc. Our different cultures, our languages, our traditions make up Pakistan. Therefore everything should be done to keep the cultures and traditions within the country alive.
2) Form and join Pashtun cultural associations to develop culture, art, music etc. Being dedicated to the Pashtun cause I would host one myself.
3) Push for Pashto to be taught in colleges and universities in Pakhtunkhwa and FATA plus have optional Pashto courses in other provinces of Pakistan. As you can see this can be done by political parties in Pakistan. Theres no reason Pashtuns can't achieve this.

I agree with your solutions, this needs to happen on both sides of the border and both sides need to help each other in these aspects.



Look at this mohajir telling others what they should do. Ran to Pakistan like coward when Indian mobs were attacking him. Now talking about breaking Pakistan.

Have these people begun making you think they are the majority? That every Pashtun is so foolish they don't know how senseless this Ultra Nationalist Pashtunistan stuff is? ^^^^ Read all that, my response to Badmashkhel. That is the Pakistani Pashtuns response to any talk of division of his land.

Defend nahi kar sakta mulk ko torwa to matt mulk ko.

The only way in which Balochistan, KP can become another country is:
1) If the majority of people in these regions WANT to be another country.
2) If, as damalakandghar stated, there is a genocide. If our idiot leaders happen to repeat the mistakes of 1971 again.
3) And whatever is said on this forum. Pashtuns in Pakistan are more patriotic than our most hated neighbors-the so-called evil Punjabis. You plan to kick these Pashtuns out of their own land? The Pakistani Pashtuns are not properly represented on this forum yet but this doesn't mean they won't me. I'll throw in some of my own effort to ensure the Pakistani Pashtun voice comes forward.[/QUOTE]

[badmash_khel]

In the whole contexts of things, pakistan can easily become in to three different countries, KP and Baluchistan can form one country, while Punjab/Sindh can form another and Dardic areas up north can become (Dardistan)

I agree, a loose European union style super state is the way to go.

[Khostai]

I am Pashtun form Afghanistan, but I, like many Afghan PAshtuns have abandoned this idea of unification whith pakistany pashtuns, becuase we have much biger problems to deal whith than this day dream of unity when the majority of Pak-pashtuns don't want to be associated whith Afghanistan. And by the way Afghan PAshtun will never join PAkistan even if we almost extinct, we refused to subdue ourself to big super powers like US and Sovjet Union and know you think we will join out of free will whith Pakistan LOL. And this have nothing to do that we hate Pakistan. We just want to be an independent country and we want to be our own boss. And European union style is not good now becuase we have to criminals who could roum around even biger teritory than now. Meybe in future when Afghanistan becomes more stabel we can talk about something like that.

[abassinafghan]

@ badmashkehl

you know if there any pakistani interesst ,we are all muslims and all the same , that they wish to be mungal 2,0 and our "bigger " brothers , but as soon unconfortable issues come up , they change the modus and they talk about differences ....

I, like many Afghan PAshtuns have abandoned this idea of unification whith pakistany pashtuns, becuase we have much biger problems to deal

right and who are not interessted ?? all the people who fear losses and this would be minorities who are dependend on foreign intervention not the average tajik , uzbek or any one else because the suffer from the same strangle ...

our problems root is this country of pakistan , there is a reason why , balochistan and pashtunistan were annceted !!!! the brits planed this long time ago and till today they are a problem ....

we can not prosper in any way if there is a ghandu nation , closing borders and blocking the roots as soon anything happend which they dont like ...

there is no muslim brotherhood or friendship as soon it comes to economical means ...... they are servants their fathers were servants , so they have to overcome this inferrior complex , by taking pride in making the poorest of the poor their own servants ...

and unfourtently there are enough poor , stupid , desperate or even ruthless people who are doing their dirty work in the name of islam , or in the name of cash , withe the best intentions ...

but how does they say ? the road to hell is made out of good intentions ,,,

[Khostai]

^I think that there is just a smal minority who would want to separte from Pakistan, becuase Afghanisatn have the same situation, we have Tajiks and Uzbacks who also want a separate state but nobody takes them siriously and they forom a tiny minority. So I think its the same situation whith Pakistan there is just a tiny minority of pashtuns who wants to be seperated but the majority knows that the pashtuns areas are not developed much so seperation would do more damage than good. And Afghanistan is now weak we hade more than 30 years of war and we still stand as a one country barely but still we are one, so peopel who think that Pakistan would be cut in to pieces are not that realistic, becuase if Afghanistan could survive in such dificult situation how can Pakistan a country whith nuclear power break in to pieces so easaly, it would not happen.
So that't way I sugest that Afghans should concentrate on Afghanistan, stabelise it make it strong in economic scence becuase I feel nothing for military power or nucelar wapons, for me is much more important if the whole population is happy and have enough to eat than some rockets that we will never use. Meybe then Pashtun in Pakistan would like to join but if not who cares Pashtuns are not the only peopel who are seperated, Tajiks are also seperated like Uzbacks and Germans also live in difrent countrys. We just have to deal whith it.

[tor_khan]

I do not think this is all a carefully crafted plan by Pakistan to keep Pashtuns from thinking independently or keep them backwards as is often claimed. And if thinking independently was so dangerous for Pakistan people like damalakandghar and soldatamir would be in jail. Instead they are free to present their beliefs. I believe the center is just pathetically negligent not just to alienation and strife in the country until it reaches the boiling point (Ie Fazlullah was spreading terrorism in Swat almost 6 months before he started tearing the place apart. He had no followers then-he could have been arrested.) but also to the needs of the Pashtun who wants more say in how his country is run and of course how the war on terror is fought which is clearly affecting Pashtun lives.

I do not believe in the equation that the more Nationalistic the Pashtun or the more culturally aware he is the more "independent" thinking he is like most Afghans claim. Of course here I would believe you mean independent thinking means secessionist thinking.

I will prove to you this equation is wrong when I get my dignity back or when I have more influence. As I have stated I was a community leader-but in a way I was disgraced. I would have brought a Pashtun to this forum I knew who was a Nationalistic Pashtun but a Nationalist Pakistani too. He believed that Pakistani interests and Pashtun interests are totally aligned unlike the common view presented on this forum that they are opposite railway tracks. But I am sick and I have not only lost contact with the people I knew but also lost a lot of prestige. Perhaps when my book is out I can help bring the Pakistani Pashtuns perspective forward which is seriously under-presented. Of course when people swear on Pakistan all the time and use "Pakistan" as a swear word the Pakistani Nationalists don't stay on the forum too long.

As far as the Balochistan situation you described the center needs to understand that force is not the solution to every problem. In fact when faced with internal dissent and alienation it is no option at all. Look at what Assad is doing in Syria. He created an insurgency out of minor protests. There is no bigger idiot than him today and he has hollowed his position.

I think this is very necessary. Force and arrests are not the solution to every problem out there. Plus when you try to deal with a Baloch Nationalist with force you not only risk turning that baloch from a dissident to a freedom fighter but also risk turning his entire extended family into dissidents. This is what the ISI fails to understand. With all the stuff about independence and the lack of loyalty of the Pakistani to his land theres much to defend against and I feel sorry for them in a way. But they need to change strategies. Kidnapping people, killing dissidents is not the way forward. If proof is needed look at what the policy has done. There are more independence movements in Pakistan a small country than in India.

The focus should be on winning over the population. Treating them with so much respect, giving them so much dignity that they themselves say they were mistaken and misled.

The center has to try and win over discontented elements. Baloch, Pashtun, Sindhi or whoever. And the Punjab has to give up some of its influence and power. It has to happen for the sake of the union. Today or tomorrow.

I hope my reply is adequete though I know no one will thank me for it as the Pakistani perspective is not appreciated much.

I think it is almost fallacious to suggest that Pakistan has NEVER blocked independence movements. Cessation is not in Pakistan's interest, so it is bound to want to control the discussion and the politics around this. Remember Bangladesh?

Soldat and Malakand operate outside of Pakistan. Perhaps if they were in Pakistan and they had access to the internet their messages would be the same - you would need to speak to them about this. However the more popular media in Pakistan for reaching a mass audience with lower levels of literary is television and tell me, quite honestly, if Soldat/Malakand's voices would be heard on Pakistan television, even in a minority broadcast slot? Let me state clearly though, I am not endorsing their messages, but you make the point that independent Pashtun voices are not suppressed in Pakistan, and this is something I would contest.

I have addressed the usage of your terminology re: Pakistani Pashtuns, elsewhere. Once again, the repeated emphasis that you place on the prefix becomes irrelevant once Pashtuns are educated beyond Pakistan's view of history.

[faye]

wow,
so when Pakistan military was in Afghanistan,Pakistani ISI was in Afghanistan and sheikh Usama was in Pakistan,why didnt the American terrorists and their allies invaded Pakistan and bombed Pakistan.

what's with the WOW? didn't you know this?

[haviZsultan]

Read my post again, I never implied that pashtuns in Afghanistan are somehow more pashtun than in Pakistan. I have been to Pakhtunkhwa and I am quite familiar with it. I said we are dominated on both sides by more advanced languages, both farsi and urdu.

Wroar, my dear friend. I am talking about the general opinion. You can't deny that some Afghans do think this way. They think we are flotsam left by the british, which is why we are called british ass birth and what not. Crime-being Pakistani pashtuns.

People have been insulting me for my Pakistanism ever since I came to the forum. I am sorry if I sounded offensive. We are brothers and believe me I am dedicated to the Pashtun cause. I just don't believe that Pashtun and Pakistani interests are differing or non aligned or one can't succeed in case the other succeeds.

I agree that Pashtuns on both sides are being imposed differing languages but I do not believe it is hurting us so much that it is making our language "disappear". I knew a man. He said all he wants is the right to speak his language on his land. He wants Pashto in Pakhtunkhwa. That was his no 1 complaint.

Thats something Pashtuns on this side can do. Make Pashto standard in Pakhtunkhwa.

Conservative estimates put the figure of pashtun population at 42-43% of the Afghan population but they don't count the refugees living in Pakistan and other neighbouring countries. There are at least 1-2 million pashtuns from Afghanistan in Pakistan. The population of Afghanistan is lower than what it should be due to constant war for 30 years. The population should be around 50-60 million. But with peace and security and better standard of living it will happen fairly quickly.

I hope so. But what to do with the Taliban. They have killed 40000 in Pakistan and more in Afghanistan. I bet more than half the people they have killed our Pashtuns

My point is shouldn't Pashtuns concentrate on putting their house in order. How can we even focus on such big things when our house is on fire.

Even if 12 million pashtuns of Afghanistan join pakistan, they would still represent a measly 20% at best. They will still be a minority alongside Sindhis. On the other hand if Pashtuns of Pakistan join Afghanistan they are 70% plus of the population and a majority. Thats just numbers and facts.

I do not believe we necessarily have to be in one Pashtunistan to solve these problems. Plus such an arrangement will make us even more dependent on what is left of sindh and punjab for sea access.

I believe provincial autonomy is enough for us. That is one of the good things #PPP government does. It gives autonomy to provinces. Evidently it should be Pashtuns who should decide their own affairs, their future. There is no reason for a Punjabi or urdu speaker to direct them. If that can be achieved within the union I believe there is no need to fear.

But of course there is more we have to do. The Urduization is taking place. Some Pashtuns I know don't want to learn Pashto themselves. They prefer Urdu. But its happening with urdu as well. I was raised outside the country. I took french as a languages subject instead of Urdu. So if theres decline in Pashto speakers theres also decline in Urdu speakers. Not hurting us outright. But of course it means all efforts should be made to promote Pashto language.

These industries also existed in Afghanistan before the 30 year continous war, with peace and stability the life will return to normal.
I think you are not too familiar with Afghanistan which is why you have some misconceptions. With more stability I encourage you to visit Afghanistan and see for yourself if there is culture there or not.
The Taliban are not just a problem in Afghanistan they rule large parts of Pakistan as well. Its a common phenomenon on both sides of the border. Where ever there is lack of security in both countries Taliban have filled the vaccum. In time Taliban will be gone as well so thats not a major issue.

My point was not to hurt the sentiments of the Afghan. I just wanted to say the Pashtun needs basic things, like a roof over his head, like food in his plate, like clothes over his body. We are going no where closer to this goal.

If hes not moving to a better standard of living with this Pashtunistan idea then whats the point. Whats it giving us? Just the guarantee that Pashto is going to be promoted as a language better. That even is in doubt of course as the city goers-the richer pashtuns who lead (generally the rich lead the poor) of Peshawar and Kabul are Urduized and Farsiized.

Perhaps there is culture in Afghanistan. But is it as strong as in Peshawar? I don't believe so but perhaps that is about opinion. Is there a movie, fashion, music and other industry there? Will a united Nation mean more talibanization.

I guess these differences in thinking and the Pakistani Pashtuns fear are a result of the fact that we have been divided for years and subjected to a completely different history. Those years ruled by the british, then the 60 years of Pakistan have in reality created a gulf in the thinking of the brothers on two sides.

But the question is who will bridge those differences. Talking like this things look amazing but Pashtunistan is not a solution to our problems. If anything we should think of Pashtunistan as a concept that is in our hearts- that the brothers are in two separate countries but there are no boundaries between them. They may be Paki-Afghan or whatever but they are brothers regardless of their views and convictions.

You can't generalize like that. I think city dwelling pashtuns have more in common with each other than their rular counterparts. A peshawari pashtun will have similar mentality to a kabuli pashtun and village pashtuns from both sides will have similar mentality. I don't see a difference in level of consirvativeness in both countries.

I'm sorry. I guess people on both sides have misconceptions. Pashtuns here just think this Pashtunistan thing is a raw deal. Pashtuns on this side are being tricked into being emotional-purely thinking of their love for Pashtuns and making a rash decision.

You are speaking as if there is a big difference between the two countries which is clearly not the case. 90% of the population in both countries are conservative muslims although the farsiwans and punjabis and other ethnicities tend to be more liberal in their thinking than pashtuns on both sides. On both sides Pashtuns have a reputation for being conservative.

I can't speak on behalf of Tallib lovers since I don't like their policies much. I think they are just naive uneducated people who have been caught between a rock and a hard place. They are a product of their circumstances. With more stability and peace, Taliban will dispear naturally. They have a hard life, now who the h3ll wants to live like that?

I believe you are discounting the fact that young Pashtun girls and guys meet up in cars and internet cafe's in Peshawar. That bootlegged wine is common here. Lets say Pashtun A is a kaffir. Will we steal Pashtun A's right to be a kaffir and impose on him our Islam?

Peshawar has changed a lot. You can call it urdu influence corrupting the gentle Pashtun or whatever but I believe even the Kaffir should have the right to live as he wants. Freedom for all. Dignity for all.

Peshawar has changed a lot. People do not understand this other side of Peshawar. In other words some Pashtuns are afraid that they are moving to a more conservative setup with this Pashtunistan thing.

You can stick with Pakistan and thats your choice. We all do things which we think are in our best interest. At the moment I don't think any sane pashtun in Paksitan wants to be part of Afghanistan. Pashtuns in Paksitan have a better standard of living and more peace and stability except maybe tribal areas.

That was my point. Pashtuns desperately, even here want to move to a better standard of living. But there must be some gain. We take part in a partition, in tearing up the boundaries of our lands for what? What are we getting in return which we already don't have?

The tribal areas.You raised another thing Pashtuns need to work on. Pashtuns on this side have to work for their own good. I mentioned before the GDP per capita of Pashtuns here is $2500 but in the tribal areas it is much lower.

So theres a lot Pashtuns still have to do on this side- which CAN be done. We need to fix our basic problems, such as poverty, terrorism and intolerance. Is Pashtunistan moving anywhere closer to that goal? Or will we have exactly the same problems? Its good to dream. But we shouldn't become blinded by our dreams.

Afghans don't hate pakistanis, they just don't like the policies of Pakistan's intelligence agencies and corrupt government. The feudal lords and chaudaries who rule Paksitan haven't will whatever to keep the status quo intact. In their quest to safegaurd their interests they have unfortunately supported policies which have been detrimental to Afghanistan. Afghanistan has been treated like a cheeseboard by the neighbours where they play their games, this applies to India, Iran and Russia as well.

They used to call me dal khor in my own country for my Nationalism but lets forget that. I agree the intelligence agencies and government have used afghanistan. Personally I believe we have no reason interfering in #Afghanistan. Its not our business what happens there.

It is for the Afghans to decide their future. Not the people of Pakistan. I apologize for the way Afghanistan has been treated as a battleground for our wars and interests. We are paying for that with so many alienated Afghans today.

Afghans don't hate pakistan because Pakistan helped them against Russians, that doesn't make sense. Why would you hate someone who helped you? Afghans hate pakistani elites because they have tried to subjugate Afghanistan and keep it weak for the fear of Pashtun nationalism and closer ties with India. I don't deny that a weak Afghanistan dependent on Pakistan is in Pakistan's best interest. of course it is and thats what pakistani elites want. This is what I meant by conflict of interests.
Unfortunately the Brits have succeeded in insuring that the muslims of south central asia keep divided on petty issues such as nationalism and fake boundries.

I agree. That was a huge mistake. I think all the interfering in Afghanistan was wrong though. For the mujahideen or against the Taliban. Just be neutral and let the Afghans deal with their own problems. Furthermore by jumping into the wars of others we caused more damage to our country. $68 billion in losses and 40000 killed in this wonder. Wonder what happened in the soviet war.

Plus who are we to tell the Afghans whether they should have indian ties or not. Its their choice.

I agree that the line is insignificant to pashtuns but some people think on each side of this imaginary line people are somehow different from each other. Again you are generalizing that Afghans call paksitani pashtuns "paki slave". This might be true for a few individuals but idiots exist everywhere. This kind of stupidity doesn't just go one way. Pashtuns of Afghanistan have also been on the receiving end of such bigotry when being called "majer", "druggie" and other stupid insults. But thank God majority of the people on both sides are sensible.

I agree with you that the line is insignificant but there are huge differences in the thinking of the Pashtun on that side and this side. Hundreds of years have come before us. You may say we have been taught a different history in those years but that is our history. 3/4 people of the now or never movement calling for an independent Pakistan were Pashtuns. Abdur Rab Nishtar was a Pashtun. So history of Pak=our history too. The Afghans don't count it as their history.

Many differences have sprung up in those years in mindset and thinking of the average Pashtun here and there. Our conversation is proof of that. Pakistani Pashtuns have their own fears, own problems, own issues which are seperate from those of Afghans.

Personally I am of the opinion that all muslims of south central asia for a European union style Union which will be made of pashtunistan, khorassan, punjab, Sindh, kashmir, Dardistan, Baltistan, Balochistan and so on. There will be no border between these states and the names would only be to identify the people living in those areas.

Now you have raised a very useful topic. Europeans killed each other like cows at a slaughterhouse. It was a slaughter party. If they were able to forget their differences why are we so consumed by hatred for the other?

Lets see if such a process can ever succeed. Even with the present boundaries. Pashtuns are not easily giving up Pakistani identity. You want proof 30000 Pashtuns have been killed because of poor policies of government in war on terror where taliban are killing Pashtuns daily. Still Pashtuns can't hear about breaking Pakistan.

Again, the comparison is not fair as Afghanistan has just been through 30 years of war. Give Afghanistan at least 30 year of peace then a comparison would be fair. I don't denty the facts though.

My point was again. What are the Pashtuns moving towards. Are their basic problems related to poverty being solved? Why not concentrate on educating the Pashtun on each side so he can do more for his race? Why focus on questions that don't even mean anything to the average Pashtun.

But you're right. Its unfair to judge Afghanistan after 30 years of war.

lol, why would pashtuns on "your" side will be discriminated against? As you said you are 30 million strong. Its an insult to pashtuns in Pakistan to think like that. Peshawar used to be the winter capital of Afghanistan and kabul the summer capital. Even history is proof that what you said is not credible.

Many years have come in between. I know Afghans believe that living like that is possible. But there are differences in thinking. Plus some Afghans even on this forum have displayed a belief that they are superior or real Pashtuns because Pashtuns here surrendered to the British.

I don't think this Pashtunistan will bring all roses for us. Division is a constant *****. Once we divide it will be the Kandahari Pashtun against the Peshawari calling the Peshawari damor baghairat. Or the Peshawari calling the Kandahari a taliban supporter and backward.

Personally I want the capital to be somewhere in parachinar, khost or somewhere in either Loya Paktiya or Waziristan. These issues are useless and minor.

If a new country like Pakistan have a capital why not pashtunistan?

Doesn't every country have a capital? Of course Pakistan has a capital.

Having a capital in Waziristan may serve to increase development there... but I guess thats a different debate. I believe the cultural capital should be the state capital. The cultural capital in my eyes is Peshawar which again is being bombed weekly by terrorists.

Again we come back to our major threat. You think they will disappear in a few years but the problem is has the Taliban mindset infused into some of us. ie shadowgovernor? I just don't want to see a future where we are forced to do things.

Taliban are a product of insecurity, corruption and illiteracy and religious extremism. With time Taliban will dissapear but the conservative nature of pashtuns is likely to stay for a while until technology reaches them and they come to the digital age.

Agree on that. I think when the goodness of life reaches you change your conservative mindset automatically. Look what happened to the people of #UAE.They were conservative bedouins. Look how modern they are now.

I was at a meeting discussing how religion cannot be imposed or forced on the other.None of these arab women had common responses. They all agreed that imposing religion never works. They are off the conservative path now.

As I said before a European union style super state where all peoples can be educated in their respective languages is an ideal solution. NO one will feel descriminated against. In hazara areas they can teach about their heroes and culture, in pashtun areas pashtun culture., in punjab, punjabi culture. Together we are similar people with similar background and same faith. It is enough to bind us together and not fight and progress.

You have introduced a brilliant solution to our problems. I am glad there are people like you. Also the Pakistani system should give more choice. Whether the person want to learn Sindhi, Pashto, Balochi-even smaller languages such as Hindko and Seraiki... even after grade 9.

The people of these races deserve to be taught about their history and culture.

The concept of modern state is a European idea from the 1600-1700s. Its not racism or fascism to want to be educated in your mother tonque or to practice your culture at a state level. The European nation state doesn't really work in central south asia as these areas are highly mixed with multiple cultures and languages in close proximity which is not the case in moset of Europe.

I agree. Its not racism. But the logic of Soldatamir or Damalakandghar is to do the Punjabis. To somehow slap them on the face lol. It seems their only ideology is hatred. Not once have they given any logic for a break up. I feel sorry for their souls and for what they may have suffered to make them eternal enemies of their motherland.

However their logic is totally wrong. There is no reason to believe Pakistan is an enemy of Pashtuns. It is in Pakistan's best interest to improve the state of its Pashtun population. A restive population is never productive to a Nations goals.

And Pashtun presence was 30% in the army and Isi at one time. How can anyone say Pashtuns are not part in the injustices (if there were any) on the Pashtun people.

Its natural for races to fight for a bigger share but there is no need to divide ourselves into a thousand new entities for this. Things can be achieved within the union. I doubt even Afghans will leave their Hazara, Uzbek or Tajik brothers. This is all emotional talk. We go down that road I am sure Afghans will never meet us half way. they will stick to Tajik Hazara uzbek despite the divisions.

But you ignoring the state of pashto language. Pashto is still a backward language where its impossible to write scientific papers in pashto. Its not in a state where it can be implemented as a language of edcuation at higher levels. The only way pashto can advance is by putting it into use in education, culture and all aspects of society. That way it can advance. Otherwise it will just stay a language of villagers and all urbanites will look down their nose on those who speak pashto. This is already happening where in Kabul pashtuns are speaking farsi and consider themselves more advanced while in Peshawar the educated classes like to communiate in urdu or english. Only by advancing pashto it can be associated with prestige and not just for village illiterates.

I think this is your top argument. Pashto language can be better promoted in independent nation. To an extent I agree. But that doesn't mean Pakistani Pashtuns don't or can't have the power to improve the condition of their language in Pakistan

I think if enough Pashtuns push for this they can get special status for the Pashto language and request education in Pashto in Pakhtunkhwa.

An example of how Pashtuns got their demands fulfilled was the Khyber Pakhtunkhwa naming issue which was still renamed despite heavy criticism from the PMLN a largely Punjabi party. It proves that if Pashtuns strive for what is rightfully theirs there is no reason they can't achieve it.

I agree with your solutions, this needs to happen on both sides of the border and both sides need to help each other in these aspects.

It was very interesting talking to you about these issues. Very enlightening. I must say I am impressed by your posts. Never any abuse, never any emotions. I could learn for you. (I don't abuse either but am very emotional)

I believe the Pakistani Pashtun is grossly under-represented on this forum.

who is talking about breaking pakistan? I was replying to Badmashkhel, that pakistan can become in to three countries potentially because it has three distinct cultural zones. one is KP/Balochistan, the other being Punjab/Sindh and the third being the Dardic areas. how is that wrong?

I think you are just being racist and way too blind nationalist now

I apologize for my post. I am a Nationalist and ex leader of a Nationalist organization. It is unbefitting to insult one of the races within the Nation.

I have nothing against Mohajirs and in our family we have intermarried in many cases.

But you're not being helpful and your post angered me.
There is enough to defend against without you adding your "helpful" posts.

Even if the culture is so different there is no reason we can't live together. Look at India. Its 1000's of cultures pushed into one. They have over 150 languages. Are they putting up for this crap.

Our blood is one and we are one nation. Without the Pashtuns or Baloch wanting to go out of Pakistan the person who is suggesting it can only be called a fool. #Unnecessarydivisions.

What do you plan to do. Kick Pashtuns out of their own country? 60 years is enough time to accept Pakistan. This "for thousand years I was Pashtun so I can't be Pakistani" crap is seen for what it is by most Pashtuns. Total racist crap. These people are disgrace to real Pashtuns.

[haviZsultan]

Contradiction in terms. Read the bold type.

Whilst Pashtuns can be Pakistani - and there's nothing wrong with that, even if they were a uniform block, it is inaccurate to use the term 'racist' when describing the actions of other Pashtuns. It doesn't apply here.

What we have often witnessed often is squabbles between Pashtuns over minor issues when the better option would have been looking at commonality. Repeated disregards of posting etiquette by some troublesome Members have contributed to a feeling of unease. It is easy enough for me to restrict the posting activities of some Members, but often they reappear with new IDs and this has periodically hurt the forum. This is a negative.

It is important to have a balance of views and ideally this forum should remain a platform for learning and interaction for Pashtuns from everywhere; regardless of nationality/pre-fix/denonym. That can only be maintained by people who are willing to weather difference of opinion - none of us completely think alike, after all. As often happens in life, people have and will eventually move on and Son of Mountains did the same when it was his time. This place should not be off limits and despite a periodic pruning of inactive accounts, his account remains 'open'. Son of Mountains heads another web-space and for those who are in contact with him; I send my Salaam.

However, going back to the quote I have used here; those of us who attempt to define Pashtuns as Pakistani or Afghan as if they were irreconcilable polar opposites, then know that this rejected by those independent minded free thinkers who see our commonness - historical, linguistic and cultural as what binds us, first.

Who are these " independent minded free thinkers"? Who made them the inheritors of our destiny. Can they feed the Pashtun, cloth the Pashtun, give him a roof over his head? Or are they misleading him to believe that his interests are completely separate from Pakistan?

I believe there is a gulf or difference in opinion between the average Pakistani Pashtun and the Afghan. I cannot get into a long debate again because I have to write a 1000 words of my book and this is running into the time i designated for my book but I hope you can find some answers here and here.

I respect your posts. Sometimes people just use Punjabi and Pakistan as a swear word and say things about it. I am against that. Insults are not the way to present an opinion.

[haviZsultan]

I think it is almost fallacious to suggest that Pakistan has NEVER blocked independence movements. Cessation is not in Pakistan's interest, so it is bound to want to control the discussion and the politics around this. Remember Bangladesh?

Soldat and Malakand operate outside of Pakistan. Perhaps if they were in Pakistan and they had access to the internet their messages would be the same - you would need to speak to them about this. However the more popular media in Pakistan for reaching a mass audience with lower levels of literary is television and tell me, quite honestly, if Soldat/Malakand's voices would be heard on Pakistan television, even in a minority broadcast slot? Let me state clearly though, I am not endorsing their messages, but you make the point that independent Pashtun voices are not suppressed in Pakistan, and this is something I would contest.

I have addressed the usage of your terminology re: Pakistani Pashtuns, elsewhere. Once again, the repeated emphasis that you place on the prefix becomes irrelevant once Pashtuns are educated beyond Pakistan's view of history.

I never stated it has never blocked such sentiment. I just said it does not view some of these people as major threats in reality because to become a threat you need to have mass support. Most people do not support the Pashtunistan cause in Pakistan and believe it is a hollow promise.

I don't know if you read the second half of my post.

As I said about the Balochistan issue Pakistan has made some major mistakes especially when dealing with dissent. These people who disagree should be free to express their opinions. Eventually they will be shouted down by patriotic Pakistani Pashtuns who clearly understand these people wish to mislead them. That Pashtun & Pakistani interests are aligned.

Armed force or arrests are never the solution to our problems. Pakistan has arrested and attacked those where there has been mass support. Instead we should have countered the ideas coming out of those regions.

I was speaking to Badmashkhel about the different histories Pakistani Pashtuns and Afghans have been taught about.

Qouted:

I agree with you that the line is insignificant but there are huge differences in the thinking of the Pashtun on that side and this side. Hundreds of years have come before us. You may say we have been taught a different history in those years but that is our history. 3/4 people of the now or never movement calling for an independent Pakistan were Pashtuns. Abdur Rab Nishtar was a Pashtun. So history of Pak=our history too. The Afghans don't count it as their history.

Many differences have sprung up in those years in mindset and thinking of the average Pashtun here and there. Our conversation is proof of that. Pakistani Pashtuns have their own fears, own problems, own issues which are seperate from those of Afghans.

So I don't know what history you are talking about. This is the Pakistani Pashtuns history. Afghans may not accept it because they didn't go through the same experiance as Pakistani Pashtuns but then my point is perhaps our 2 histories are different. Yes we count the war with the british as our history but we also count the struggle for Pakistan as our struggle too.

Sidenote: I think you might want to put this discussion within this thread here too and sticky the thread. I hope you do it with all the posts for Badmash Khel and my responses. They explain the Pakistani position which is evidently not visible on this forum.

Those areas may also give you the Pakistani perspective. You can re-post the posts here if you want and make the thread sticky.

[badmash_khel]

@haviZsultan

I don't have much to add and we can agree to disagree on certain issues. Keep learning about pashtun history, culture and heritage and many of the misundrestandings will be removed. I can see where you are coming from due to your upbringing and your own personal choices.
I have my own views and baises shaped by my upbringing and choices. I need to learn alot as well to undrestand the mentality of Pakistani born pashtuns and what shapes their mindset eventhough I have been to Pakhtunkhwa numerous times. I encourage you to keep an open mind and learn about Afghanistan and visit if the situation gets better.
Let's focus on what we have in common rather than petty issues such as personal insults divide us. I know sometimes its hard to keep a cool head but treat those who throw around insults as little kids who have alot of growing up to do.

You will not like everyone nor will you agree with everyone and vice versa. That's how llife is.

[tor_khan]

I never stated it has never blocked such sentiment. I just said it does not view some of these people as major threats in reality because to become a threat you need to have mass support. Most people do not support the Pashtunistan cause in Pakistan and believe it is a hollow promise.

I don't know if you read the second half of my post.

As I said about the Balochistan issue Pakistan has made some major mistakes especially when dealing with dissent. These people who disagree should be free to express their opinions. Eventually they will be shouted down by patriotic Pakistani Pashtuns who clearly understand these people wish to mislead them. That Pashtun & Pakistani interests are aligned.

Armed force or arrests are never the solution to our problems. Pakistan has arrested and attacked those where there has been mass support. Instead we should have countered the ideas coming out of those regions.

I was speaking to Badmashkhel about the different histories Pakistani Pashtuns and Afghans have been taught about.

Qouted:
So I don't know what history you are talking about. This is the Pakistani Pashtuns history. Afghans may not accept it because they didn't go through the same experiance as Pakistani Pashtuns but then my point is perhaps our 2 histories are different. Yes we count the war with the british as our history but we also count the struggle for Pakistan as our struggle too.

Sidenote: I think you might want to put this discussion within this thread here too and sticky the thread. I hope you do it with all the posts for Badmash Khel and my responses. They explain the Pakistani position which is evidently not visible on this forum.

Those areas may also give you the Pakistani perspective. You can re-post the posts here if you want and make the thread sticky.

I wasn't talking about Pashtunistan. Whether Pashtunistan happens/remains a pipe dream/whatever; the basic reality is Pakistan has tried to manipulate Afghanistan, and by default - Pashtuns, into being dependent on Islamabad. That's the recent history.

Going back to partition and the truth is not all Pashtuns were uniform about 'opting' for Pakistan. Significantly those who were not convinced or spoke out were branded traitors/Indian stooges from Day 1 and incarcerated. Probably the most significant and most positive movement before and after partition focussed on Pashtun emancipation - the Khudai Khidmatgars - was forcibly dismantled, radio signals from Afghanistan were blocked and the 'domestication' process of Pashtuns in Pakistan began.

You have flagged up Balochistan in several of your posts. Put it this way, we forget that the Baloch are to some extent even more integrated into the life outside their homeland, so that now you have Sindhis, Omanis, Zanzibaris, other Gulf Arabs, Seraikis etc. who can reasonably claim Baloch ancestry. Despite significant assimilation into other cultures, there are a core section of Baloch who are leading a separatist movement.

Your view of Pashtuns even through a contemporary lens is to view them in stereotypical blocks. You have narrowed us down to 'Pakistani', 'Taliban' or 'Afghan' and have decided that you favour only one block. Unfortunately, however, as people we are much more fluid than that. Whilst most Pashtuns don't care whether they live and eat in Afghanistan or Pakistan, just think, if Afghanistan was stronger, which way would Pashtuns look?

[haviZsultan]

@haviZsultan

I don't have much to add and we can agree to disagree on certain issues. Keep learning about pashtun history, culture and heritage and many of the misundrestandings will be removed. I can see where you are coming from due to your upbringing and your own personal choices.
I have my own views and baises shaped by my upbringing and choices. I need to learn alot as well to undrestand the mentality of Pakistani born pashtuns and what shapes their mindset eventhough I have been to Pakhtunkhwa numerous times. I encourage you to keep an open mind and learn about Afghanistan and visit if the situation gets better.
Let's focus on what we have in common rather than petty issues such as personal insults divide us. I know sometimes its hard to keep a cool head but treat those who throw around insults as little kids who have alot of growing up to do.

You will not like everyone nor will you agree with everyone and vice versa. That's how llife is.

Yeah, I just wanted to present the perspective of the Pakistani Pashtun. I think we should take more steps to understand each other. People to people contact can improve things for us.

And yeah we need to ignore the racists.

Your view of Pashtuns even through a contemporary lens is to view them in stereotypical blocks. You have narrowed us down to 'Pakistani', 'Taliban' or 'Afghan' and have decided that you favour only one block. Unfortunately, however, as people we are much more fluid than that. Whilst most Pashtuns don't care whether they live and eat in Afghanistan or Pakistan, just think, if Afghanistan was stronger, which way would Pashtuns look?

Even a stronger Afghanistan, I doubt would change the loyalty of the Pakhtun to his homeland. Its like saying that Muslims should support Saudi Arabia no matter what just because it has the masjid al haram.

Perhaps Pashtuns would come there for jobs and education but nothing more. 60 years is enough to develop loyalty to your land. I think we should just move on.

[khushal]

The Pakistani constitution does recognize it as a part of Pakistan and that's why the representatives of that area are sitting in the National Assembly of Pakistan not some other country.

Now .. let's not get into this debate :-P

First answer the question, when did the pakistani flag fly over FATA?

Second, the pakistani constitution recognizes it as autonomous and the pakistani courts have no jurisdiction or authority in FATA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal...d_Tribal_Areas
The Constitution of Pakistan governs FATA through the same rules which were framed by the British in 1901 as Frontier Crimes Regulations (FCR). The Jurisdiction of Supreme Court and High Court of Pakistan does not extend to FATA and Provincially Administered Tribal Areas (PATA), according to Article 247 and Article 248, of existing 1973 Constitution of Pakistan. The Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Provincial Assembly has no power in FATA, and can only exercise its powers in PATA that are part of Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa.
The mainly Pashtun tribes that inhabit the areas are semi-autonomous and until fall of the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan, the tribes had cordial relations with Pakistan's government.

Third, The pakistani army could not enter FATA without permission of the tribes. The US pressuring the PAkistani army to invade FATA after 2001 were met with fierce resistance from the tribes because the tribes did not give their consent which reinforces the its autonomous nature. I saw this back in the 90's when a pakistani army convoy with 1000+ troops were traveling towards Kurrum and three tribesmen with AK47's stopped them and told them to turn around. I asked the three tribemen what they said to the army and they said that they had not gotten permission from the "mashron" to travel through here, first get permission and then come back. The whole army turned back around.

Fourth, nek mohammad wazir was a high ranking official of the taliban and he was sitting in Kabul. According to a 2009 BBC survey, categorized as "grossly exaggerated" by the Pakistan Army which was fighting the militants there, the Taliban were present in all FATA agencies, and in full control of Waziristan, Orakzai and Bajaur