Split Discussion: Identity, Nationality and Being Pashtun

[haviZsultan]

You are a full paki frustrated because you losed all the wars vs india , pakistanis have this well-known inferiority complex with the great india


And you proved it because you speak a very good urdu/hindi

Kya hua merey bachey ?
Tujhe india pasand nahi areha hai ?
Tumare pakistan ki gaand jaley gi , zaroor, bas thora intazaar karna parega.

He is not a Pakistani. He is from the Afghan side. He is Afghani. But you won't insult Afghans because this is an Afghan forum.

And there is no proof India won its wars. Only in 1971 Pakistan was in a state of civil war which India took full advantage of. However Indias failure to destroy Pakistan despite 10 times its population and 5:2 military ratio is proof that Pakistan can stand up to major obstacles.

Pakistan can face its problems. India should concentrate on the maoists, assam and Khalistan.

[haviZsultan]

Da gaggar na di , dam dumra dumra khabare kawi da hinduan....looool
zok yeh pe am khiryaat ke na purgaddi dai mungta nashiyatuna kawi.

The Hindus come to us those who don't know how to be a human,and give us advices.

And look at the apostate pakistanis loooool,they talk as if they have captured israel or defeated india,when they talk about pashtuns.

Afghanistan this logic, "they learned Islam from us" or "they were bhaniyas before we taught them this or that" is faulty.

Islam actually came to the Pashtuns from further west. This means that Pashtuns were actually Hindus and Buddhists too before the Arabs, Turks and Persians converted them to Islam. Therefore the same logic you people are constantly applying on "apostate" Pakistanis can be applied to you by the Arabs and Turks. +Lets not forget 30 Million Pashtuns do identify themselves as Pakistanis first then anything else.

Plus who cares what we were in past. Its the now that matters. And hey Pakistanis are overly proud of their Muslimness but there are reasons too.

Pakistan has sent pilots in the 6 day war which destroyed 10 Israeli aircraft. Ever heard of Sattar alvi? Of course not.

Hadith speaks about a Nation that has fought with both Hind and Israel leading the muwalduun during last days. Who knows?

Thats why maybe you people should stop insulting Pakistan and do something useful for Islam. Of course I hope that doesn't involve blowing selves up.

[JattApache]

He is not a Pakistani. He is from the Afghan side. He is Afghani. But you won't insult Afghans because this is an Afghan forum.

And there is no proof India won its wars. Only in 1971 Pakistan was in a state of civil war which India took full advantage of. However Indias failure to destroy Pakistan despite 10 times its population and 5:2 military ratio is proof that Pakistan can stand up to major obstacles.

Pakistan can face its problems. India should concentrate on the maoists, assam and Khalistan.

Khalistan ? The only khalistanis live in canada
Maoist ? They are not separatists so why are you talkin about them ?

Let's talk about separatists in pakistan, because it's more serious and realistic

-free balochistan
- pashtunistan
- greater Afghanistan
- union of jammu kashmiri
- sindhudesh

Only one province has not any serious separatist movement
It's PakJab
The only reason of why india don't want to invade pakistan today is because pakistan has the nuclear weapons and the relationship between congress party and musharaf zardari is good

[abassinafghan]

+Lets not forget 30 Million Pashtuns do identify themselves as Pakistanis first then anything else.

Plus who cares what we were in past. Its the now that matters. And hey Pakistanis are overly proud of their Muslimness but there are reasons too.

Pakistan has sent pilots in the 6 day war which destroyed 10 Israeli aircraft. Ever heard of Sattar alvi? Of course not.

yeah dream on hahahhahahahahhahahaha

and by the way how many times do i have to tell you , afghani is the currency , the proper noun is afghan ....

i am not an afghani but i am an afghan ,

ze auran yeam , ta auredelidi yeo cha zanta aurani wai ????


and did you foreget how pakis ( yes this term is right paki , as there is nothing as the paks as a nation .... ) took part in black september killing innocent palestinians ????

[DaMalakandGhar]

Islam actually came to the Pashtuns from further west. This means that Pashtuns were actually Hindus and Buddhists too before the Arabs, Turks and Persians converted them to Islam. Therefore the same logic you people are constantly applying on "apostate" Pakistanis can be applied to you by the Arabs and Turks. +Lets not forget 30 Million Pashtuns do identify themselves as Pakistanis first then anything else.

What is your problem? Who gave you an Indian/Indic the right to designate Pashtuns as Pakis or Afghanistanis? It is for Pashtuns to decide who they are and not a Ranjit Singhi like you. Pakistaniyath is just a label inscribed on my passport whereas my Pashtun identity is what has been defining me for thousands of years.

Stop speaking on behalf of Pashtuns.

[JattApache]

What is your problem? Who gave you an Indian/Indic the right to designate Pashtuns as Pakis or Afghanistanis? It is for Pashtuns to decide who they are and not a Ranjit Singhi like you. Pakistaniyath is just a label inscribed on my passport whereas my Pashtun identity is what has been defining me for thousands of years.

Stop speaking on behalf of Pashtuns.

^ no, you are just a nationalist fascist socialist racist.

[haviZsultan]

Mods I want you to take notice of the constant abuse, insults and swearing that takes place on this site.

Bharati never insulted Pakistan but now because these people are provoking him he responds. Childish response but thats what insults to someones religion and culture bring. I hope you take notice of this and make this site more friendly towards people with differing views.

My only crime is that I love my country, Pakistan. This logic that Pashtuns can't be Pakistani because they have been Pashtun for thousands of years is wrong and flawed. If it applies the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks should rebel because they are effectively being ruled by others.

What is your problem? Who gave you an Indian/Indic the right to designate Pashtuns as Pakis or Afghanistanis? It is for Pashtuns to decide who they are and not a Ranjit Singhi like you. Pakistaniyath is just a label inscribed on my passport whereas my Pashtun identity is what has been defining me for thousands of years.

Stop speaking on behalf of Pashtuns.

You have already claimed you want a genocide of Pashtuns in Pakistan so that Pashtuns stop believing in Pakistan which is a sickening thought which as I explained before would please Ranjit Singh beyond anything if he was alive.

Every time I see you I imagine Ranjit Singh sitting with a little child who he is desperate to please.

Ranjit Singh: Sta sa problem de? Vekh mainu Pashto vich gal andi hai (dunno if the punjabi is right)
DaMalakandGhar: Za stane gila manium
Ranjit Singh: Oye ki gal hai, mainu dass de... ice cream mangta hai?

I can only say that while there are Pashtuns like you, there are also Pashtuns who consider themselves Pakistani first more than anything and you have to accept these make up the majority in Pakistan.

We have to accept each others varying beliefs. Of course we can't accept it happily- maybe accept it with the sadness of two estranged brothers but we have to accept it.

Of course some of us don't even know what Pashtun means. I have some people in Karachi-3rd generation Pashtuns-now total urdu speakers- you talk about Pashtuns they stare blankly- then you have to tell them Pashtun is another word for Pathan. Call it "Urdu influence", "Punjabi influence" or whatever. But Pashtuns have integrated into Pakistani society.

Most people do not have time to get into this racist line of thinking.

[haviZsultan]

^
out of everyone you should be the last one to be complaining and should be happy that you are tolerated here when constantly calling Pashutns/Afghans/muslims all types of names such as terrorist,animal,etc etc.
if you dont like it here i bet there are tons of websites where you can bash muslims/Pashtuns/Afghans as much as you want.

loo at my signature ,that is what you said.
here is a suggestion : defence.pk

I never called Pashtuns any of that.

But of course its your old logic Taliban=Pashtuns=Muslims at work again.

I have thought about quitting. But that will only make terrorists like you stronger. When you give up promoting your cause you give up on bringing forward your beliefs and ideals. By doing that you remove all chances of the cause you fight for, you live for going anywhere.

[RevolutionThroughReason]

you are living in denial.
talian are pashtuns and muslims as much as you try to show us that atheistic muslism such as you are THE muslims.
dont try to fool us ,you are only fooling yourself.
your cause is a failed cause since over 90% of pakistanis are against your seculer british laws and against your atheism that you are promotin.

you can keep dreaming that pakistani muslims will fall for your terrorist rhetoric against muslims/pashtun/Afghan/pakistanis.
keep dreaming you delusional liar.

you are the only terrorist among the other terrorists who support the genocide of muslims in Afghansitan and pukhtunkhwa under different pretexts.
matter of fact nationalist fascists such as you have caused muslims to stay backward for 100s of years through seculer dictatorships and tyrant kings but things are changing as we see the fall of arab nationalist seculerists,so what makes you think your wet dream will be realised?

matter of fact the very mindset of yours have killed many bengalis and raped them.
the very mindset of yours helped the balck friday massacre of palestinians.
you cant fool us with your fake mask of tolerance,you have no tolerance towards muslims who are the extreme majority in Afghanistan and pakistan.

The Taliban are not entirely Pashtuns, many Punjabis, arabs, Tajiks and Uzbeks are in the Taliban.


So this equation is nonsense.

we can assume the Taliban are "Muslims" but not all Muslims are Taliban so Taliban =/= Muslims or else every Muslim would have to be Taliban which is false.

The Taliban are corrupted Muslims; not the ones who are following the standards of Islam. They're misguided and brainwashed. Some are sincere, but not the leadership. The Leadership are slaves of the ISI for sure. The regular Taliban are guys who are being manipulated to Taliban believing they're only resisting NATO when really they're assisting Pakistan use Pashtun lives to die for their cause the same way NATO does

[tor_khan]

Mods I want you to take notice of the constant abuse, insults and swearing that takes place on this site.

Bharati never insulted Pakistan but now because these people are provoking him he responds. Childish response but thats what insults to someones religion and culture bring. I hope you take notice of this and make this site more friendly towards people with differing views.

My only crime is that I love my country, Pakistan. This logic that Pashtuns can't be Pakistani because they have been Pashtun for thousands of years is wrong and flawed. If it applies the Tajiks, Hazaras and Uzbeks should rebel because they are effectively being ruled by others.



You have already claimed you want a genocide of Pashtuns in Pakistan so that Pashtuns stop believing in Pakistan which is a sickening thought which as I explained before would please Ranjit Singh beyond anything if he was alive.

Every time I see you I imagine Ranjit Singh sitting with a little child who he is desperate to please.

Ranjit Singh: Sta sa problem de? Vekh mainu Pashto vich gal andi hai (dunno if the punjabi is right)
DaMalakandGhar: Za stane gila manium
Ranjit Singh: Oye ki gal hai, mainu dass de... ice cream mangta hai?

I can only say that while there are Pashtuns like you, there are also Pashtuns who consider themselves Pakistani first more than anything and you have to accept these make up the majority in Pakistan.

We have to accept each others varying beliefs. Of course we can't accept it happily- maybe accept it with the sadness of two estranged brothers but we have to accept it.

Of course some of us don't even know what Pashtun means. I have some people in Karachi-3rd generation Pashtuns-now total urdu speakers- you talk about Pashtuns they stare blankly- then you have to tell them Pashtun is another word for Pathan. Call it "Urdu influence", "Punjabi influence" or whatever. But Pashtuns have integrated into Pakistani society.

Most people do not have time to get into this racist line of thinking.

You flag up many issues.

1. Hit the 'Report Post' button if a post doesn't comply with basic etiquette/breaks the rules/is intended to be offensive. It generates a record and a link that means that the exact comment can be followed and removed where necessary.

2. On the note of Pashtuns being absorbed into the urban cultures of Lahore and Karachi to the loss of their own - this has been happening for centuries with Pashtun settlers in India. The difference is whether those individuals can claim to represent Pashtun sentiment west of the Indus. Imran Khan would be a classic case. As I see it, the type of Pashtuns that are 'acceptable' are the ones who play second fiddle either by giving up on their culture or by being kept in a state of disarray so that they are sufficiently cranked up enough to be a buffer/Pakistan's border control. The Pashtuns that are 'dangerous' to the homogeneous view of Pakistan that the Panjabis etc. push for are the Pashtuns who think independently. It comes as no surprise that Pakistan has routinely attempted to block this from happening - and hence the 'servile' Pashtuns you describe. To put our own personal history and cultural identity first results in us being called Indian agents - Balochistan being your prime example. That HaviZSultan, is 'worse' than being a Taliban sympathiser in Pakistan.

[faye]

pakistan military and military advisers were in afghanistan helping the taliban, when the u.s. invaded and had to be airlifted out. so i read.
when the taliban were chased into pakistan they were considered or became a problem for the government and the people (depending on whose individual opinion one reads). perhaps they then had a falling out with pakistan government or isi. i have wondered if they were deliberately chased into pakistan, to create a reason for america to get involved (read, interfere) in pakistan.

[Karachi]

Taliban have been backed by ISI and saudis all along, it is so obvious. where do you think they get the arms and financial support? of course from ISI and saudis, who else will provide them?

The question now is why are taliban so popular among the religious circles, not just among pashtuns but even in punjab, karachi and in fact many of the religious circles around the world?

[Afghanistan2010]

pakistan military and military advisers were in afghanistan helping the taliban, when the u.s. invaded and had to be airlifted out. so i read.
when the taliban were chased into pakistan they were considered or became a problem for the government and the people (depending on whose individual opinion one reads). perhaps they then had a falling out with pakistan government or isi. i have wondered if they were deliberately chased into pakistan, to create a reason for america to get involved (read, interfere) in pakistan.

wow,
so when Pakistan military was in Afghanistan,Pakistani ISI was in Afghanistan and sheikh Usama was in Pakistan,why didnt the American terrorists and their allies invaded Pakistan and bombed Pakistan.

[JattApache]

wow,
so when Pakistan military was in Afghanistan,Pakistani ISI was in Afghanistan and sheikh Usama was in Pakistan,why didnt the American terrorists and their allies invaded Pakistan and bombed Pakistan.

Because unfortunately a dangerous country like pakistan has nuclear weapons

[haviZsultan]

2. On the note of Pashtuns being absorbed into the urban cultures of Lahore and Karachi to the loss of their own - this has been happening for centuries with Pashtun settlers in India. The difference is whether those individuals can claim to represent Pashtun sentiment west of the Indus. Imran Khan would be a classic case. As I see it, the type of Pashtuns that are 'acceptable' are the ones who play second fiddle either by giving up on their culture or by being kept in a state of disarray so that they are sufficiently cranked up enough to be a buffer/Pakistan's border control. The Pashtuns that are 'dangerous' to the homogeneous view of Pakistan that the Panjabis etc. push for are the Pashtuns who think independently. It comes as no surprise that Pakistan has routinely attempted to block this from happening - and hence the 'servile' Pashtuns you describe. To put our own personal history and cultural identity first results in us being called Indian agents - Balochistan being your prime example. That HaviZSultan, is 'worse' than being a Taliban sympathiser in Pakistan.

I do not think this is all a carefully crafted plan by Pakistan to keep Pashtuns from thinking independently or keep them backwards as is often claimed. And if thinking independently was so dangerous for Pakistan people like damalakandghar and soldatamir would be in jail. Instead they are free to present their beliefs. I believe the center is just pathetically negligent not just to alienation and strife in the country until it reaches the boiling point (Ie Fazlullah was spreading terrorism in Swat almost 6 months before he started tearing the place apart. He had no followers then-he could have been arrested.) but also to the needs of the Pashtun who wants more say in how his country is run and of course how the war on terror is fought which is clearly affecting Pashtun lives.

I do not believe in the equation that the more Nationalistic the Pashtun or the more culturally aware he is the more "independent" thinking he is like most Afghans claim. Of course here I would believe you mean independent thinking means secessionist thinking.

I will prove to you this equation is wrong when I get my dignity back or when I have more influence. As I have stated I was a community leader-but in a way I was disgraced. I would have brought a Pashtun to this forum I knew who was a Nationalistic Pashtun but a Nationalist Pakistani too. He believed that Pakistani interests and Pashtun interests are totally aligned unlike the common view presented on this forum that they are opposite railway tracks. But I am sick and I have not only lost contact with the people I knew but also lost a lot of prestige. Perhaps when my book is out I can help bring the Pakistani Pashtuns perspective forward which is seriously under-presented. Of course when people swear on Pakistan all the time and use "Pakistan" as a swear word the Pakistani Nationalists don't stay on the forum too long.

As far as the Balochistan situation you described the center needs to understand that force is not the solution to every problem. In fact when faced with internal dissent and alienation it is no option at all. Look at what Assad is doing in Syria. He created an insurgency out of minor protests. There is no bigger idiot than him today and he has hollowed his position.

I think this is very necessary. Force and arrests are not the solution to every problem out there. Plus when you try to deal with a Baloch Nationalist with force you not only risk turning that baloch from a dissident to a freedom fighter but also risk turning his entire extended family into dissidents. This is what the ISI fails to understand. With all the stuff about independence and the lack of loyalty of the Pakistani to his land theres much to defend against and I feel sorry for them in a way. But they need to change strategies. Kidnapping people, killing dissidents is not the way forward. If proof is needed look at what the policy has done. There are more independence movements in Pakistan a small country than in India.

The focus should be on winning over the population. Treating them with so much respect, giving them so much dignity that they themselves say they were mistaken and misled.

The center has to try and win over discontented elements. Baloch, Pashtun, Sindhi or whoever. And the Punjab has to give up some of its influence and power. It has to happen for the sake of the union. Today or tomorrow.

I hope my reply is adequete though I know no one will thank me for it as the Pakistani perspective is not appreciated much.