International women day

[Sher Malang]

Happy women day!

[DaMalakandGhar]

How about Sharmeen Obaid Chinoy's speech for this day...

Mera Passion Pakistan - Sharmeen Obaid-Chinoy - YouTube

"For all the women in Pakistan working for change... don't give up on your dreams. This is for you."

One Indic woman speaking for Indics east of Indus.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

the day is about as pointless as the dozens of awards that are given to afghan women by the west like the "courage" award or the rest of the cliched titles. days like this are not meant to uplift women, but to mold women into the western image of what a woman is supposed to be. which is pretty low, even by western standards these days. everyday should be womens day to muslims, we don't need 1 day out of 365 invented by the west to celebrate and appreciate women. the same goes for men, horses, racoons and every other living thing worthy of dignity and respect.

Randolph,

I am proud to call you a Pashtun. You, Khushaal, roadrunner and some others exercise quiet a bit of common sensical reasoning and take historical precedent and apply it to the here and now (which is exactly why we learn it in the first place per the mantra that those that do not learn history are doomed to repeat it).

I especially appreciate your commentary here:
http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthr...t=26591&page=2

Just as there is theoretical physics and then the application of it into applied physics... history also tends to repeat itself and leaves for us many lessons.

You commentary in that other thread is essential in the interpretation of such issues.

The original thread post was in fact, introvertive and not at all an issue. When Toramana posted it though, being true to precedent, his goal was to bring out the ire from some that he knew would read this, gloss over it, and comment on the Petreus propaganda machine linking an extended stay in Afghanistan with the need to complete womens suffrage movements and gaurantee womens rights in that country.

This is exactly the problem with their practice. Folks who are genuinly humanists and interested in human rights issues, animal rights issues, inanimate object rights, wild life rights generally understand the danger in linking their cause to a political mindset and/or goal. Usually this sets back a cause decades if not centuries. For instance, environmental causes in the US suffer because many rabid environmentalists and PETA link their pet causes into a local democratic platform resulting in Sarah Palin and others being able to divert attention from appropriate development of these concepts into an emotional battle that associates these important issues with a party generally known for domestic liberalism, gays rights, anti gun laws etc. The same goes for my field of healthcare. Sarah Palin was successfully able to insinuate that doctors appropriatly making decisions on futility of care were leading death panels. The fact that physicians ceded healthcare politics to the major parties had all but ensured that the only thing that will change the American System is economic needs instead of a preemptive logical and evidence based debate.

By this same token, the cause of womens rights and human rights in general, in Afghanistan, has been set back nearly a century under the guise of defeating the Taliban to ensure women can go to work, enjoy harvesting grain in the field, get water from the local well, have equal voting rights, and have equal representation in the parliament etc. However, the advocates of using NATO to secure these advances (many of them legitimate and reasonable) has resulted in these folks doing something that completely lacks common sense: coming to the conclusion that NATO and the US specifically can ensure that the ruse of Arabism never again haunts Afghan women. Code Pink and other organizations have similar motives. Other groups like those led by Shukria Barakzai are merely capitalizing on milking the current situation for personal gain.

Yet let us leave aside opinion and reference fact that NATO and the US have done irrepairable damage admittedly and intentionally by linking their war for resource and a foothold in central asia to these very important, poignant, and real issues that have seen little gain, but much pain:

Here is a wikileaks CIA Red Cell Memo that Assange was kind enough to put into public light to high light this duplicity.

http://mirror.wikileaks.info/leak/cia-afghanistan.pdf

"Conversely, messaging that dramatizes the potential adverse consequences of an ISAF defeat for Afghan civilians could leverage French (and other European) guilt for abandoning them. The prospect of the Taliban rolling back hard-won progress on girls’ education could provoke French indignation, become a rallying point for

France’s largely secular public, and give voters a reason to support a good and necessary cause despite casualties."

And this is exactly why Toramana and his thankful ilk have ensured that this sort of ahistorical discussion gets interjected into the discussion about the Afghan War.

Yet contrary to what they were saying about Karzai being an amazing enlightened leader, Karzai has done exactly what others have done before him and accepted political expediency. The evidence shows that the KEY piece of objective data that these folks cite, i.e. the major nearly expontential increase in the number of womens schools across Afghanistan has to be tempered with the reality when one reads between the lines (mind you these folks are excessively sneaky as they generally know what is in between these lines):

"Of the 2.4 million girls currently in school, a disproportionate number of them – 1.9 million – are in primary school, signaling a significant drop-off after the sixth grade. Additionally, that number only reflects enrollment, not attendance. In 2009, 22 percent of female students were absent for the entire year or listed as permanently absent according to the same report."

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Asia-...tan-lose-steam

Unlike Toramana and Soldat (both 5th column citizens in their respective adopted nations) the Christian Science Monitor provides important information that undoes their narrative:

"But one of the biggest challenges is that some of the worst women's rights abuses comes not from the Taliban, but from rural Afghan society, which is steeped in traditional views of how woman should behave."

How deep rooted is this problem, the CSM goes on to give a case study:

"Last spring, Marhaba Karimi, the former women’s affairs director in Kunar Province, and her husband made major headlines throughout the country when they were convicted of brutally torturing and killing their daughter-in-law. Ms. Karimi was the head of women's affairs for the US-supported Afghan government in Kunar, set up to protect women's rights, yet she got caught up in a rural murder scandal that most Afghans would describe as backward. While such incidents remain rare, the trial was a black mark on women from rural areas working on behalf of other women in the government."

------------------------------------------------------------

So with the above in mind, on this international womens day, let us truly celebrate our women and offer a pathway to advance their rights by discussing history... as it repeates itself with subtle nuances again and again again.

And yes Faye, we men are more than justified in discussing these issues as folks like Gerritt Smith and William Lloyd Garrison were instrumental men, recognized and lauded by by their female compatriots in being indispensable arms of the movement. These men showed the stronger and generally oppressive parts of the US populace that amongst their leaders (white prostestant men) there were those that would sap their strength by aligning against them. Therefore, men have played an essential role in these discussions and were the critical mass that ensured these movements reached fruition.

The two concepts we should make sure to discuss are
1) Historical precedent
2) Blow back

Generally, the US has led the way when it came to providing leaders of the modern feminist movement. Betty Freiden is such an example (despite her odd socialist leanings). Yet how did the US get to this point? And mind you, the US still has a way to go when it comes to completely equalizing things for all comers. To this day the US still has not had its Margaret Thatcher equivalent moment. The debate about contraception, womens rights regarding abortion are still hot button issues.

How do the 2 concepts above apply in the case of the US and in the West in general?

Well, as I note elsewhere, Nathanial Hawthorne's books provide a very important historical basis for the development of American society. As Obama noted, this union (ie the US) is always moving towards perfecting itself (I take it he means towards a completely just system).

Where Toramana has been wrong again and again and again is that he brushes the history behind the development of stable nation states under the rug and adopts a near fundamentalist/zealous attitude that is equivalent to his adversaries': He says people want democracy and rights now and therefore they will receive those rights REAL TIME at the barrell end of a gun no matter what it takes and despite what history has taught us about how viable nation states develop.

What history shows us that the kernel society of the US that Hawthorne was consistently apologizing for was the Puritan society of his forefather. His forefather was the leading cleric of sorts that sentenced scores of women to die by burning death for being suspected witches. The Scarlet Letter and other books were a series of contritions Hawthorne was putting out to discuss the dark stain of innocent blood on his lineage. This strict theocracy was recently discussed by John Stewart in that they had actually banned Christmas Celebrations:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OncDpIop0wUC&pg=PA273&lpg=PA273&dq=lords+ of+misrule+puritan+war&source=bl&ots=A998dChnPr&si g=FS4HwZ57rhGU7L0z7faOMARN2qc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9_FbT9 Erh4bRAeXG9dsD&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=lords%2 0of%20misrule%20puritan%20war&f=false

However, no one, neither Spain nor the enlightened French nor the Turks came and occupied this colony and demanded they simulataneously change their ingrained ways and and also undergo the humiliation of occupation. Instead, they were allowed to battle it out amongst themselvs so that generations later a Hawthorne could be born.

Subsequently, the order in which populations gained the right to vote across what is called the free world progressed as follows:

White men from 1776 to current
Black men (not fully) from 1870 onwards with 15th amendment passing

So remember at this point only men had the right to vote

Then in 1920 the 19th amendment was passed (i.e. less than 100 years ago in the nearly 500 years of English presence on the American continent.

The historical progression of other womens suffrege movements throughout developed nations proceeded in a similar vein.

The same concept goes for democracy. Runny Meade is where the seed of American democracy was planted nearly 800 + years ago. Was it the French that forced King John to sign the Magna Carta? No historical precedent shows us that it was the British themselves who forced their leader to cede certain rights.

Now what of blowback?

We see examples of blowback in our own lifetime. Iran is a prime example of this. Each time the US needles the regime in Iran the populace outside of Tehran and Shiraz shift their support to more nationalistic and vocal leaders like Ahmedinijad. In the late 90s when relations were on the freeze and the US was far less overtly focused on Iran, the populace voted in a moderate like Khatami.

The CIA discusses blowback in relation to the fall of Mossadegh and installation of the Shah and notes that the Ayatollahs' rise was exactly the definition of blowback.

In this same way, there is no population on Earth that will not experience blowback if a foreigner, with a completely different religious and sociological ideology that even looks different than the natives, holds a m16 to the heads of locals and demands that they simulataneously experience subjugation and cede their cultural mores to the barrell end of a gun.

This sort of advocacy ignores the natural and proper historical progression and only encourages the rural person to associate something that is wholesome and good with something he loathes. Therefore he begins to psychologically split concepts and people into categories based on these experiences.

Now, I half expect Soldat to publish another rant about the ISI and about how we are ignoring Pashtun wrongs. But as Randolph so eloquently put it... populations will focus on their own wrongs at some point, but that does not negate wrongs being done to the population by an occupier. Now of course he loves to repeat himself and will cry foul about how OBL bought them there.... once again Soldat, they actually bought him there with their involvement in the Arabian peninsula where the Americans seem to be completely silent while their beloved Saudi monarchs ban driving and other reasonable things for their female population.

So let us advocate womens rights in the best way possible: by advocating complete nonintervention. Let the Afghans fight it out... let them go through their Puritan phase uninterrupted and let them give birth to their own Susan B Anthony and not a farcical fool who attempts to fill the shoes of such great leaders (Shukria Barakzai who was cuckolded comes to mind). Let their own Hawthorne be born out of the loins of their strict interpretationalist... let their Garrisons lead the charge.

Otherwise, the Afghanistan we will see in 20 years time will be a mirror state of the Saudi regime... a puppet state where human rights, much less women rights are completely absent to soothe the existence of bases galore.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Other examples of blowback and retrogression of womens rights is the current debate about the overturning of Roe v wade in the US that is being driven by Santorum, Palin and a host of others. The blowback to Roe V Wade as Ron Paul has pointed out is predominantly due to the fact that this cause was latched onto the celebration of liberality and then the federal government imposed its will on the states. Therefore the Alabamans and the Georgians view medical Oral Contraception (used for dysfunctional uterine bleeding and other medical causes) as a rights issue. The recent hooplah Rush Limbaugh contributed to was burgeoning proof of undercurrents of what some populations of Americans see as repression. The whole dialogue was framed in terms of the rights of certain religious organizations to not provide any healthcare funding for contraception for any reason.

[randolph85]

Afghan women who are presented awards for being courageous receive these awards for being brave enough to have put their lives in danger on daily basis to support for their families or contribute for the betterment of a society that has given them nothing but misery in the entire course of their lifetime. They are not being awarded courageous for doing a great job at practicing safe sex with random men, striping their way at bars to law school, being great single parents or keeping their heads out of a toilet at a rehabilitation facility for a chosen period of time.
What image is the evil west imposing on innocent Muslim afghan women?? That they be of some use to society?? Need I remind anyone of the importance or value of a woman in a western society??
Everyday is a woman's day in Afghanistan?? Really?? Is that why there are so many reports of their babies getting smashed against walls and their fingers being cooked coming up every day??

you seem to excel at not understanding posts. no, not everyday is women's day in afghanistan, i never said that. neither is there a women's day if the west decides there to be one.

if you need confirmation that what you are doing and how you are living your life is right by means of some worthless holiday or awards which are basically there because of the "white mans burden," then whatever makes you happy.

[IamDZJ]

it has nothing to do with the white man. some of you can't seem separate your lives from the white man. you use the white man as an excuse when you are not busy blaming them for every fault under the sky.
toilets were also invented by the white man. i don't see any of you using your backyards to serve the purpose instead.

[randolph85]

white mans burden

One view proposes that white people have an obligation to rule over, and encourage the cultural development of people from other ethnic and cultural backgrounds until they can take their place in the world economically and socially. The term "the white man's burden" has been interpreted by some as racist, or possibly taken as a metaphor for a condescending view of undeveloped national culture and economic traditions, identified as a sense of European ascendancy which has been called "cultural imperialism". An alternative interpretation is the philanthropic view, common in Kipling's formative years, that the rich have a moral duty and obligation to help "the poor" "better" themselves whether the poor want the help or not.



the term is outdated but can be easily called the western burden, same ish, different century.

[IamDZJ]

i don't care for the term. what i said still applies to the idea.

[randolph85]

what you said didn't even address the idea. i say let afghan women and afghan everything excel, but we don't need or want a pat on the back or encouragement from people who see our entire population as children or a cute puppy. our problems and our accomplishments should be ours alone.

[roadrunner]

I don't think it matters who they hand out awards to but it's a good idea since it allows society to view women from a different angle.

This would lead to gradual evolution of the role of women to fit best the society. It's not a big thing though.

[faye]

what you said didn't even address the idea. i say let afghan women and afghan everything excel, but we don't need or want a pat on the back or encouragement from people who see our entire population as children or a cute puppy. our problems and our accomplishments should be ours alone.

excel at what and how, randolph? you seem to hate the west but are content staying there. you appear to think anyone who is not a muslim and shows compassion, empathy or kindness is faking it.
so what is it you are wanting afghanistan and the women of afghanistan to excel in, and how do you want them to accomplish this excelling?

[roadrunner]

I think afghans should decide what the awards are. Focusing on bravery awards would be daft IMHO, though I'm not suggesting cooking awards either. Lot's of prestigious women's educational awards would be the best way to go for Afghanistan.

In the beginning they might as well pick random women and make up some story.

[roadrunner]

Thinking about this again, Afghanistan is in the middle of a war. First get human rights. Women's rights can follow.

[haviZsultan]

Thinking about this again, Afghanistan is in the middle of a war. First get human rights. Women's rights can follow.

I think women's rights are part of human rights. Concentrate on women now. The west takes a lot of interest in women's rights. Once they leave women's rights will just be a distant dream. So better concentrate on it now until the West is there in Afghanistan

[roadrunner]

You can't have women's rights without basic human rights.