Pashtuns and marriage

[Michin Khel]

Just a question...
What is marriage like for you all? From what I have learned, you don't really have a choice, its your parents that pick out the guy/girl. The more fair skinned she is the better (sorry, this is sad to say). You often don't meet until after the nikkah. And you don't marry either outside of your family/outside of Pashtun culture.

How much of this is true? How much of this is because I meet poopy people? hehe

Very accurate observations !
In pashtun society
1) Girl has no role in choosing husband, she has to accept what her parents decide.
2) Boy cant see the girl before marraige. He has to rely on oral description of girl from the ones he has sent to girl's home for rishta.
3) if the girl's parents come to know that boy is in love with their girl, they will never accept the rishta of that boy.
4)there is great age difference between bride and groom. The husband is some times twice the age of wife. This case is applicable when girl is uneducated. It mostly happens nowadays in FATA and afghanistan.
5) beauty of girls and wealth/job of boys is preferred in rishtas.
6)Parents prefer to give their girl in nearby village/town.

[Roshina]

Hi there, Muslimah! Welcome to PF (Sorry about a late welcome! Been away lately.)

I'm going to try to answer some of your questions.... And I see that you're a new convert to Islam. I must advise you to study Islam (AND other religion) as much as you can because I am noting that you've got a lot of misconceptions both about Islam and about Pashtunwali. That's not a bad thing, though, of course, since that's a great way to know what all you need to focus on understanding better. And we're here to help you with that, since we're Muslims and Pashtuns :D

Incidentally, I was asked to write something for my Blog on Pashtunwali and Islam, particularly when it comes to marriage. I appreciate the request, since oftentimes, people tend to bash Pashtunwali (culture) for saying that it’s bad to women and they claim that Islam (religion) is more respectful. Anyone who thinks this way clearly lacks knowledge about both Islam and Pashtunwali, the history of the two, and the many different available interpretations of Islam. Depending on which Quranic verse you take, for instance, it could be very supportive of women’s rights or women’s humanness, or it could be interpreted so negatively that it could even appear to dehumanize her! Most hadiths about women are literally worse: it’s not even a matter of interpretation when it comes to hadiths, I’ve noticed; it’s simply the text of the hadiths that make you go, “OMG! How dare the transmitters of hadiths say such a thing about me, my gender!”

My interests, passion, and expertise lie in Islam, specifically in gender relations, hermeneutics (interpretations, basically), and non-Muslims' and women's rights in Islamic thought (or just a deeper understanding of "Islam's" stance on minorities, but with a strong focus on women and non-Muslims). And this is why I am going to have to be challenging your views a lot on Islam and women, not because I might necessarily disagree with you but because I want you and other Muslims to understand that there's essentially no such thing as "Islamic culture" or "in Islam." When we say, "in Islam," what we REALLY mean is "according to such and such person's interpretation/understanding of Islam."

Anyway, in case you don't understand what I mean by this, you will as you read more into Islam, which I desperately hope you're doing.

Okay, so my comments and answers to your questions are going to be in the next post, k?

Thanks again for joining PF, girl!

[Roshina]

As you can tell by the very different answers the Pashtuns of PF have given you, whatever answers you get to your questions are going to depend on who you're talking to. Some are telling you that what you've learned about Pashtuns is lies, misconceptions about us, and so on, and others are telling you that most of it is true; yet even others are telling you that basically all of that is true.

Ultimately, it depends on who you talk to. Their education, village/city/area, where they were raised, where they LIVE, and a host of other factors are involved in how Pashtuns marry. I don't think it's fair to say that "Pashtuns do their marriages like this," since the Pashtuns of Swat don't do their marriages the same way that Pashtuns of Mardan do it, for example. Forget other districts: focus just on one Pashtun area/district, and, like I said, depending on the education, upbringing, and social and economic statuses of the family, it's not done the same at all.

What is marriage like for you all?

I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean what you've asked in the questions afterward, then I get ya, but otherwise, I'm confused 'cause marriage is what it is.

From what I have learned,

Learned from whom?

you don't really have a choice, its your parents that pick out the guy/girl.

This is not true for all Pashtuns, but it's true for many, many Pashtuns I know. My relatives are among them. Women don't always have a choice, but the men sometimes have a choice. An uncle of mine, for instance, fought against the girl his parents had selected for him since the time of her birth, and the poor guy even left town to escape the marriage, but my grandparents went ahead with the marriage during his absence. His leaving didn't stop them, you see.

So, while it's not true to say that only women suffer in the culture, it's perhaps equally untrue and unfair to deny that men, too, sometimes suffer in the same conditions.

But, of course, this is not a unique practice to Pashtuns. I'm sure you're aware of the prevalence of forced marriages throughout the entire Muslim world.

The more fair skinned she is the better (sorry, this is sad to say).

Don't be sorry to express your opinion about anything. Never be sorry about doing that.
But, yes, a lot of Pashtuns -- as is the culture of most South/Central Asians -- care about a girl's looks and her cooking abilities more than her intellectual standing or her personality.

Again, it's not fair to say that this applies to all Pashtuns even in one particular area.

You often don't meet until after the nikkah.

Yes, this is true for many Muslims worldwide: They have allowed themselves to be fooled into the idea that Islam doens't allow the mixing of males and females, so much that they don't even let two people meet even if they're engaged.

And you don't marry either outside of your family/outside of Pashtun culture.

We have a thread here on PF on marriage to non-Pashtuns. Check out for yourself what the Pashtuns here think about this.

I would not prefer a non-Pashtun man for myself, but if I meet a non-Pashtun man who's super brilliant, is very familiar with Pashtunwali, and knows me well enough to tolerate me for the rest of his life (), then I'd go for him.

It depends on the family, really. Many Pashtuns consider it selfish for a man or woman to marry someone without the consent or knowledge of his/her parents, and I can understand why. So, today, when a young Pashtun couple wants to get married but their parents aren't willing, they'll wait until the girl reaches her late 20s or early 30s, and then her parents go, "Okay, okay, marry HIM if you have to, but just get married! You're getting old, damn it!" (Again, not all Pashtun families are like this; some are.)

Well, what do you tell a set of parents that believes culture is more important than Islam?

Frankly speaking, I don't think it's nice to impose our understanding or values on other people. If someone wants to favor their culture to Islam, what's wrong with it? They might be being "ethnocentric," but those who think religion is more important than culture are being "ethnoreligious," don't you think, sis?

Me, for instance, I'm more likely to marry a man for his personal values, his personality, his mentality, his knowledge, and his education than for his religion.

[Roshina]

We are the opposite of what you said.

Like others and I have said, it depends on where you live. Not all Pashtuns are alike in ANYTHING.

I speak from experiences. And we're Pashtuns. And we're from Swat. However, I can't say that ALL Swatis are like what my family and relatives are, since that won't be true.

So, I'd like to request that we speak only for ourselves when we talk about how marriages take place among Pashtuns.

[Roshina]

^my post was not directed at you. no need to be defensive missy.

Oh! In that case, I'm very sorry! I thought you were talking to me since your post was posted right below mine.

And I wasn't trying to be defensive; sorry that's how you took it, lewanai!

[Roshina]

@ Muslimah:

I just wrote a rrrrrrrreally long response, talking about marriages in general, Quranic verses and hadiths used in support of the idea of looking for beauty, social status, and religion (for instance: Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Hadith # 62: Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "A woman is married for four things, i.e., her wealth, her family status, her beauty and her religion. So you should marry the religious woman (otherwise) you will be a losers). And I went on and on to explain the concept of compatibility in Islam (by "in Islam" here, I mean what Muslim scholars of the past have explained to be the meaning of the Arabic term "kafa'," which can mean match, compatibility, equal, and a ton of other things).

But alas!!! Firefox got stuck and then I got this notice that said, "Firefox crashed down. We're sorry. Everything you were working on may be lost" (or something like that).

And now... now, I'm at the peak of frustration 'cause that freaking post took TIME, okay?!

I was literally talking to the screen! Life SUCKS at times like these!

But no worries ... I love this whole topic of marriage in Islam, so I'm sure I'll be writing a blog post on this in due time, ka khair wee.

I REFUSE to re-start that whole post now, though!

Shucks! Life really, REALLY does suck right now. And, no, I will NOT stop screaming about it! That post was long!!!!

[Roshina]

Thanks for all of your input!

Not a problem! That's what we're all here for - to learn and teach whatever we can, sis.

The reason I personally (my opinion only..I see yours is different and i respect that) believe that being Muslim should come first is because this is what Islam teaches us. And I do believe that I live a very Islamic lifestyle, and I feel for myself I would only be compatible with someone who follows Islam as closely as I do since it is pretty much every detail to how I live my life. Ie, how I talk, walk, dress, eat, sleep, think, etc.

Good to hear, girl.

However, I must say ... whenever you say Islam says or teaches this and that, I'm always going to ask you: "Give a Quranic verse, or at least a hadith, to support this claim."

So, since you said that Islam teaches us that being Muslim should come first, I need a Quranic verse -- or a hadith, since I understand its importance in most Muslims' life -- that says, "The person you marry must be Muslim."

This is not to trouble you, of curse, and I do this with everyone, you'll come to know. It's to help you better understand Islam and things in general. It's to remind you not to accept anything that Muslims tell you just like that without verifying it for yourself. It's more for you than for me. And, of course, it'll also help others strengthen their faith in whatever they believe, since we often believe things without understanding them or without knowing why something is the case.

So I hope and expect that you will not feel "attacked" or criticized or anything like that.

[tor_khan]

yes, a lot of Pashtuns -- as is the culture of most South/Central Asians -- care about a girl's looks and her cooking abilities more than her intellectual standing or her personality.

That is universal. It is not just a Central South/Asian thing.

In the Marilyn Monroe film, Gentlemen Prefer Blondes, the title says a lot, but there's a line where Marilyn Monroe says that if men marry for beauty, then women marry for security (hence, the signature song, Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend), i.e. he who can offer the best 'diamonds' gets the girl.

It doesn't matter how much we modernise marriage, the basics are the basics and it doesn't change for most of us.

[Roshina]

Even if Shlombay requests you to re-write it you would not do it right now?

Please? She is our guest? Show her our hospitality please do it for me Qrratugai, your cup of shlombay.

LOL! OMG! I caaaaan't! I'm soooo busy with a million tasks this month and next month that I had to fight every gut to keep away from PF these last few days!... Soon, I promise. I'll write it. It's a very important topic, so I'll definitely be writing it ... but just please, please, pleeeeeeeeeeease don't get me to do it now ... I will CRY if you make me do it! lol

[Roshina]

That is universal. It is not just a Central South/Asian thing.

Oh, definitely. I only mentioned South/Central Asian since Sis Muslimah may not be familiar with those, and they're our neighbors; I'm sure she knows that it's common in other parts of the world as well ... I hope she does.

[Roshina]

hehe I don't feel attacked. Don't worry. I have only been Muslim just over 2 years. I have a lot to learn.
And dont worry about the post deleting. My firefox always freezes, and internet explorer just flat out is useless in every way possible. I get it.
I don't know the exact aya, but it says something along the lines of choosing a wife not for her wealth, culture or beauty, but for her devotion to Allah swt. Do you know what I am talking about? I can look for it no problem.
I was also shown a hadith that says a woman should marry a muslim man because it is typically through the man that tradition is passed down and religion. I wouldn't want to marry a non-muslim anyway, but still.
I need to pull out my notes. I have years of them...

What kills me even more right now is that I went into intricate details about the whole concept of marriage! I looked up many Quranic verses and hadiths on marriage, and I explained how each verse and hadith has been interpreted and I gave longer explanations of different scholars as well

No, I don't plan to get over this! I was hoping I'll keep that post till forever ends since it'll be coming in handy soon in other forums or discussions.

Oh misery!!

And, yeah, things will have to be more than just "the Quran says this," sweetums Specific chapter and verse # will be useful, as you can imagine.

Oh, and marriage of women to non-Muslims ... girrrrl, volumes have been written on this, though the fact remains that the Quran tells men to marry women from the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) but it never tells women they cannot do so. The Quran tells both men and women not to marry disbelievers, though, and since it tells men they CAN marry Jews and Christians who are "pure," we have to conclude that the Quran sees Jews and Christians as believers, not as disbelievers. So anyone who tells you that the QURAN says women can't marry non-Muslims is not telling you the truth. Hadiths tell you you can't marry a non-Muslim, and many scholars have tried to explain this -- and most Muslims have fallen for those explanations -- and it all boils down to ONE fact that I will have to discuss in another post (on marriage and Islam). If I start it now, I'll never stop, and I can't afford to stay on for more than a few more minutes.

[Muslimah]

Islam is clear on the kind of wife you should be seeking. The Prophet (s.a.w) said: "A woman may be married for four reasons: for her property, her status, her beauty, and her religion; so try to get one who is religious, may you be blessed." This specifically defines just what kind of a companion we are seeking, for if we marry her for anything other than her religious piety, our marriage is bound to fall into misery.

thats from this link:

http://islam.pakistanway.com/showtopic.aspx?topicid=460&typeid=6

I see the quote there, it just doesn't state where it came from. Saying it will fall into misery is wayyy to extreme. But...turns out its a hadith. I had asked the same thing about women and why it says what the men can choose but not the woman. And an imam said, "well women have to marry muslim, thats why it isnt mentioned". I never really thought about it until now. Seeing that Islam gives women so many rights, perhaps that is why we aren't told what to do here, meanwhile men are! hehe

Sorry I seem to have ignited a spark in you and you want to write a whole lot. I will be around for a while - so no rush. If you're busy focus on whats more important sister!

[Roshina]

OH YA? NO? AND I AM HERE SMILING LIKE SHE PROBABLY WROTE IT ALREADY. PSH WHAT WAS I THINKING.



DOnT EVER TALK TO ME AGAIN.

BYE.

lol! Oh come onnnnnnn! Stop it already, man! I PROMISE I will do it! Just not right this week Look, I'm sure you want me to succeed in studies, right? Exactly! So let me do that first, and once I'm done with that and am sure I can spare a couple of hours on PF, I will write it. k?

Thanks!

[Michin Khel]

I forget to mention important point of pashtun marraige, the nikah take place in boy's home. like punjabis it should take place in girl's home.

[Feroza_Banu]

this is what marriage is for majority of pashtuns...

sad to say but majority of our people are uneducated and backwards...which is the source of all of what i will be writing below.

1. most of the pashtuns dn't have any regards for their wife's opinion, the women have 0 say as a wife. they are considered dumb and mostly refer to as "khazai pa hes shai na pohege" and a man who consults his wife for opinion is considered be ghairat and un-manli... it is again their machoness to do so.

2. in most areas pashtoon men don't even eat with the ladies of the famly because it is considered, again, against their ghairat. most pashtoons live in collective home structure with 20+ people in the same house hold and men and women are segrated... even though they are all mahram to each other. sitting with their women, talking to them, engaging in healthy discusion and asking for opinions of their wives are something taboo and actually demeaning to them.

3. most pashtoon wives don't see a doctor's face unless she is dying. tooth are taken out by palaas.

4. most pashtoon women work allllllllllllllll day long from 4 am to until sunset and when husband returns and finds no salt in the food, he beats the crap out of her... or may be he beats her up just caz he had a bad day.

oh and by the way... i am pashtana... hard-core... both parent's side. but i like to speak the truth.

now if u want a story of pashtoon man marrying a girl out of race its another story. sad but pashtoon men marries a tajik or out of race and suddenly he treats her with utter respect and love... i have seen that happen alot!

again .. all of what i posted above is lack of education.