What are real Pakhtana values?

[faye]

you are so funny, catya sher. if you want to know why i am here, you have always been free to ask.
just watch out for those butterflies, now, won't you?

Thanks Manzareh and Alchemist and others who are bringing out the real problems here.

Shayesta wrote a bunch of nonsense back to me which made no sense.
I took Logic and Philosophy at the nation's top ranked liberal arts university to bolster my abilities in this realm of logical argument.

This doesn't make me expert but I have a small feel for when someone is
ranting and raving and making NO sense.

The Roshina-Shayesta-dzj Network makes rude jabs without ever SAYING ANYTHING substantive !

I'm glad people are finally uniting to expose them.

They make PF women look like nasty first graders.
The exact opposite of the impression they try to wow their admirers with of marching to the drum of the latest 'women's rights' arguments.

I also don't care for their cheap style of talking : Roshina used to try to fling around MANLY swear words to sound masculine and tough.

However, if one can hardly make a post without incorporating the expression "Hell" - believe me, you will be sure to have an affinity with that place.
That word should never be used carelessly.
She has stopped that, thank God.
It cleans up the Forum.

But together with Shayesta's irritating tone, cheap language like "ain't no" to sound cool I suspect, I see no reason to give ANY of them the time of day.

Alchemist saw right through these people. Their posts have nothing to do with LOGICAL argument.
They rely on heavy emotional manipulation, generating dust storms of negativity MEANT to blind the eyes and ears of readers.
A lot of the women are fooled.
-Gulalai I wasn't meaning you at all - "They" referred to Roshina's rants. Not to silent observers, some of whom I LAUDED in earlier posts !

I'm glad to see the men here are not. Many of them emerge as admirable; whereas this bevy of women is making Afghan women and supporters like faye look like idiots ! No offense.

Alchemist & Scimitar before him were right; Why on earth is faye here?
Scimitar said she was a 'troll' ; I wonder if she's some sort of agent - why was she constantly pestering me trying to draw me out on American political questions, demanding i go to sites and look at them. I ignored her but
she seemed displeased. Maybe nothing beyond a late middle aged identity crisis.
But why would she come HERE to PF where she never talks about much to do with Afghan history, culture etc, but DOES derail every thread by edging carefully in and taking one of the men aside for an aimless chat which is irrelevant to the thread topic.
I would watch out for faye, she was hanging around my Profile for weeks before she started posting here. Then pretended to be a friend only to backstab.
Not a nice person.

[Gulbabo]

There's some very very solid ways to recognize a true Pakhtana.

But I don't want to reveal them, since some will try and fake it.

haha, ok fair enough. keep them to urself.

LOLLL not many of these people define anything, they just argue and get sidetracked
and for me hmm il have 2 tink i guesss

yes i see, its constantly arguing but no clear cut definitions...

Ok u go ahead think and let me know when u are ready haha

[qunduz92]

khorai thanks and good to see you on again, you take it from here im going have to do something .

khoray its best to just ignore them and let them fight one another instead lol. we know that we are better than them so why even associate with them. they have turned this whole site into a trashy gossip-girl scene where they fulfill their desire for a perverted form of a social life which is absent in real life. the intended purpose of the forum and what differentiated it in a good way from any other has long been strayed from due to the contamination brought forth by them. many have left and many continue to leave due to the change of atmoshphere, as they inform me through pm.

[faye]

since you are paranoid and don't wish to broaden your spectrum caty, i will explain to others. 'the project for the new american century' and the 'foriegn policy initiative' are right wing american think tanks, with lots of zionist members, who pushed for the wars in afghanistan and iraq. if one is not too childish and afraid, one can see what they are plotting by looking at the meetings and opinions on their website. i didn't realise you were paranoid about me, caty, so i was suggesting to read this so you can work out some of the future moves of the hegemonic invaders of muslim lands, thinking of you as an adult and a journalist.
harass you= lie....lurk around you before i joined=lie. i joined on the spur of the moment whilst searching for info on kuchi dresses.
i can see now why you and the fool are so alligned.
i suppose someone who is paranoid about butterflies will have other issues.

[Alchemist]

First, its our religion also and we both and countless others have as much a right to do or say what ever, as you think you have. What if Allah wants us to reform his outdated message and make it more palatable in the 21st century. Are you saying 'you don't allow that' for him. Are you bigger than Allah. What if Allah in his infinite freedom decides to flip, and calls prostitution a saintly endeavor and chastity a sin. Who are you to argue.

Doing nothing and letting our religion die is slander to some of us. What you call slander is reform to others.

We can argue about Islam, Quran, Muhammad, Mullah Umar, Snoop Doggy Dog or who ever else we wish to argue about. If it effects our culture and livelihood.

Whether Toramana is married, single, saint, or peghambar, means nothing on a forum where ideas are being discussed not his life. Stick to the debate by avoiding personal expression of despair.

You make me laugh.

Are you really this dense?
No wonder!
OK. I could ridicule your lack of intelligence and pin point your fallacies just to humiliate you the way Scimitar usually does to you.

But just in case there are any fools out there who think like you, I will try to educate you on the basics.

Allah Almighty is THE ALL KNOWING.
Hence, an Omnipotent being, by definition does not "Change his mind". Therefore, when HE says "Final Messanger", he means FINAL.
Which makes sense. Because HE is beyound Time and Space. It doesn't matter if it is 21st century or 51st century, the human condition will remain the same. Despite the materialistic "progress" of homo sapians, we still are bound to the same biological and, hence cultural, factors that people 1400 years ago, nay, even 14,000, and 140,000 years ago. We still eat, sleep, defecat and procreate.
It's not like you are a different species than those before you. We are not "cars" that our instruction manual has to change every year for every new model. Still even cars don't vary by much, so a general course in mechanics will teach you the principles of what makes a car, a car. For example, a car needs it's oil changed,regardless if it is a benze or a volvo. Likewise, a human has to pray to his Creator and Sustainer. If you want to argue what denomination, what sect, in what way, that is a totally different issue...regardless, the principles remain the same.


Your problem is that you think Allah is Morgan Freeman, Auzubillah, and he lives on cloud no.9. And on sundays he goes fishing in galaxy 51 with the Kligons. Too much tv has brainwashed you to the point where you think you know more about Islam...than muslims. Are you a muslim? Obviously not...because if you were, you would accept the finalty of the message. And the message is:

This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3]

nd whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the life to come he shall be among the losers.” [Quran 3:85].

"He has ordained for you the same religion (Islam) which He enjoined on Noah, and that which We have revealed to you, and which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses and Jesus: namely that you should remain steadfast in religion and be not divided therein.” [Quran 42:13]

Understand?

Or would you like me to draw you pictures?

[Mayana]

Alchemist i agree in our entire barakzais as far as i can see there has not been a single divorce to this day , nor are the women opressed or under mens thumbs ,actually they are strong women and the men treat them just fine with respect and dignity, my mother is more stricter than my father and brothers all put togeather its the women in our house hold who make the rules and run the house , and its the women that make everything more stricter in our house hold and some are highly educated but the attititude is very strict conservative, got to get back to uni work thats all i hd to say.

It's nice to read that your environment is this positive, it warms my heart.

However, I would like to point out that as you yourself mention, that is in your immediate environment, or in the part of your clan that you know. There have been divorces amongst all Pashtun tribes and to say that the entire tribe so-and-so has not had a single case of divorce is a lie. And to measure women's strength by the divorce rate in a society like ours is wrong, too. Those women might be suffering from domestic violence, marital rape and blackmailing and might not be getting a divorce because societal doctrines do not allow them to do so while still living a dignified life. Guzaara kawee, Guzaara.

Please don't forget, each family has politics of their own. I have seen divorces in the most pious and admirable of families. In fact, some of the most pious and deendost people I know have unfortunately gone through divorces. Just because it is looked down upon in our society doesn't mean it is impossible. This is about priporities, are you going to put ""Pashtunwali"" before Islam? Or are you going to put Islam before Pashtunwali? Do we live for the Creator or the created? (For the religious ones of us.) It is a God given permission, and to prohibit that which has been allowed is very wrong.

And I'm not in favor of divorces and I hope no one has to go through it - I am however also not in favor of inappropriately targeting people for saving themselves, their children and their dignity by means that their society may not approve of.


Having said that, no one can go around saying "All Pashtun women are ridiculously liberated and not oppressed at all" or "All Pashtun women are oppressed and kept in a cave.". It's somewhere in between, really. We are brought up with certain values, and we carry them within ourselves. I like to give everyone the benefit of the doubt and I'd say that most of us would not go against every norm if we had the chance to, e.g. we wouldn't jump men if we had the chance to do that without anyone knowing lol

We have values and complex understandings of what we consider self-respect and integrity and those are innate to our culture. We have them because we are part of this culture and follow this religion. Those values however change with time, a few decades ago, it was unheard of for a Pashtun woman to go out and seek an education. Now, in some circles, it is unheard of for a Pashtun woman not to seek an education. Personally, I come froma family very similar to Kakar Girl's but I do know of cases where that just isn't a given and women are oppressed. But who is to statistically analyze the Pashtun community as a whole and say that the majority of Pashtaneh are __________. ?? All the statistical perspectives we're giving here are relative.

And for heaven's sake, people, stop letting random strangers define who you are. Be it defining who you as a Pashtun are, who you as a [inserttribehere] are or who you as a Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist/[insertreligiousaffiliationhere] are.

[*Mahzala*]

A quick clarification on the creation of this thread:

1) It was not created by Roshina to 'attack', 'single out' or 'pick on' Kakargirl. The discussion was part of another thread and, because a lot of the posts were out of place, the topics were split. Just a reminder not to derail threads. Let's aim for organisation, please.

2) After some requests, we come to a conclusion that the two threads cannot be re-merged as both have had a lot of clean up and a lot would appear out of place.

3) For more clarification, refer to this post: http://www.pashtunforums.com/hujra-1...26/#post371025