Liberty for Pashtun Woman

[Toramana]

What you are aspiring for is a sub-set or a set. You are still being vague in defining the concept of Liberty. You have to first define the set and then the sub-set. let me give you few examples to explain myself...

1. completely free to make her own decisions in matters of education...

Getting educated within the remit of Islam or you are including certain disciplines that are not allowed for women in Islam such as designing bikini and conducting the fashion shows for it etc. Without being cynical, I think there is very little that falls outside what is allowed by Islam, unless one is bent upon looking for something that will break the laws. So here the Set is Islam and the sub-set is all those disciplines that are allowed by Islam. As long as a lady is staying with that allowed sets (which is similar to men and women) I am all up for complete freedom.

2. completely free to make her own decision in matters of career selection....

Does this set of careers make a sub-set of Islam, meaning is the career, that a girl is considering, allowed by Islam? If Islam allows it then there should be no restrictions on her none what so ever. But if wants to become something that isn't allowed by Islam then I am all against it.

3. completely free to make her own decisions in matters of marriage...

ALL UP FOR IT ... as long as the religious rules are not broken (e.g., marrying a non-Muslim) IT HAS TO BE THE GIRL'S AND THE ONLY THE GIRL'S CHOICE.

4. completely free to play a wider role in society political, social, or whatever if she chooses to..

Again, if the role that she wants to play is allowed by Islam then she should have every right to do what she wants to do.

5.must have a role at par with a man...

A woman can not be at par with a man. Female are designed differently then males this biological difference can not be ignored. But if refer to social equality where woman is allowed to play the role that a woman should play in society according to ISLAM that of course stopping her from it is a Sin to say the least.


So here you can see the point is where do you place the liberties? Are these liberties making a sub-set of something that we are alien to ... then of course you are asking for trouble for women as this will lead to creating mistrust and destruction of society. Anyone asking for something like this should be put in his or her place.

I mean the little small dark place where one stays for a very long time.

One further point is that when we talk about Islam it should Islam and Islam only not a cocktail of some pseudo culture and someone's half cooked understanding of Islam.

If you are trying to look for these liberties in Pashtunwali then you will not find them as Pashtunwali as a SET is a culture that has evolved in rather poisonousness times. In other words its a culture of a broken society.

Now the Question is that how do you go about rescuing your liberties, that are given to you by ISLAM, from those that are enforcing a system at times contrary to it e.g., Pashtunwali?


for that I will have to send you the thesis of my PhD

Ok, using the language of mathematics, I mean the UNIVERSAL set of which Islam is an empty subset (null set component) as for as women and other fundamental human rights are concerned. Islam itself is a snapshot of bedione culture and social conditions at that point of time and since then has morphed into an array of mutually irrecoconcilable sets of interpretations and superstitions static, incomprehensible, and anachronistic.

Pashtunwali is a culture, therefore, given to change. Kindly, don't blame culture for what is the general condition of many Muslims (specifically Arabs) who want to revert from their present under-evolved state to a de-evoloved state of a bygone age.

The universal set by the way best represents the views of most of the humanity( excluding few madrassa mullahs and some Muslim fanatics) with regard to human-women rights based on reason (aqal) and logic.

[ScimitarXEdge]

You evaded his question again, and with false variables at that.

1.) Muslims of the time were mainly settled Arabs and few non Arabs; so it could not be Bedouin since Bedouin referred to unsettled peoples.

2.) There's no address of any particular issue which people of that time dealt with which could not or is not relevant now

3.) Misuse of the concept of a "null Set", , In Set Theory, Null Sets are subsets of all reals, and thereby have upper and lower bounds of -Inf to Inf, which makes it the root of all sets, since Null Set is Unique.

[Sangeen]

Ok, using the language of mathematics, I mean the UNIVERSAL set of which Islam is an empty subset (null set component) as for as women and other fundamental human rights are concerned. Islam itself is a snapshot of bedione culture and social conditions at that point of time and since then has morphed into an array of mutually irrecoconcilable sets of interpretations and superstitions static, incomprehensible, and anachronistic.

Pashtunwali is a culture, therefore, given to change. Kindly, don't blame culture for what is the general condition of many Muslims (specifically Arabs) who want to revert from their present under-evolved state to a de-evoloved state of a bygone age.

The universal set by the way best represents the views of most of the humanity( excluding few madrassa mullahs and some Muslim fanatics) with regard to human-women rights based on reason (aqal) and logic.

Well this makes the equation rather very simple. If you call Islam a "null set" in other words multiplying it will zero or to make it even more clear you reject the Islam then you have no jurisdictions here. This discussion is for Muslims not for MURTADS that have rejected Islam. YOU HAVE NO PLACE TO SPEAK IN OUR AFFAIRS....

We are Muslims and we have submitted our lives to Islam and that's the set of rule that we want for ourselves. You can chose whatever you like for yourself be it some lunacy people like you may call Pashtunwali ... and mind you, the nuances are not so subtle here. In fact the differences quite clear ... nothing for you to hide behind.

To be a Pashtun it is a necessary pre-request that we show some dedication to what we stand for and this dedication has to start from our fundamental ideas, which is ISLAM.

Unless we are talking about the traitors like ANP and other wanna be Commis. These lost souls (and i do mean lost in every sense of the word) are good for nothing. They didnt get anywhere by sucking on to their commi masters and now comically have reverted to their capitalists masters .... quite a journey they have had from Hindu masters to commi masters now finally to capitalists.... just like a prostitute at the street corner that will oblige just about anyone that can... merely move. Mind you this prostitution is not for money anymore the godless so called pashtuns like you will bend-over for the fun of it. Being in this role for so many decades they have now acquired a taste for it.


But i know the likes of you, that dwell on the stench of the gutter they gobble out of. These gutter dwellers use the stench as their primary weapon of defence and when a decent honourable Pashtun is faced with them they will bash Islam to hide their failures and the decent Pashtun will run in disgust and will leave the place. And you guys will call it the victory of your argument.

I am used to gutter dwellers like you and I am kind of quite immune to the stench that you are making. So i will ask you one simple question and i hope you will stay the ground and answer:

WHAT RIGHT IS IT THAT ISLAM HAS EVER TAKEN AWAY FROM WOMEN?

When you answer it do answer it in the context of Pashtuns so that we can dissect it that whether it is you pseudo Pashtun ignorant CULTURE or is it ISLAM.

People like you are nothing... they are neither Muslims nor Pashtuns. In fact you are one thing and that is .... a NULL SET.

[Toramana]

Well this makes the equation rather very simple. If you call Islam a "null set" in other words multiplying it will zero or to make it even more clear you reject the Islam then you have no jurisdictions here. This discussion is for Muslims not for MURTADS that have rejected Islam. YOU HAVE NO PLACE TO SPEAK IN OUR AFFAIRS....

Who is a true Muslim by the way? There is no universal agreement about that in Muslims. Various Muslims sects have in turn labelled each other kafir e.g. if you are an Ikhwani, you are a murtad according to Deobandi belief...and if you are a Salafi /Wahabi, you are a kafir according to Barelvi belief.

My Islam is the common man's Islam. I am not excluding any one from the fold of Islam...I am simply pointing to some fanatic Muslims who want to live in the stone age and like others to return to that state too.

Rest, as for ANP, I am not an ANP follower but when I compare them with Mullahs I find them far better...From British Imperialists to Pakistani oppressors they have struggled valiently unlike Mullahs and fanatics who have been recruits for any power that could pay them or clever individuals that could opuimise with blind beliefs and herd them (like cattles).

Rest, it is not your prerogative to decide/declare who is Pashtun or who is a Muslim.

You cannot distinguish between culture and religion...one a static set of rudimentary beliefs/thoughts (if led by Mullahs) and the other a dynamic collection of precesses and lessons learnt from experiences. Kindly, rewrite your thesis.

[ScimitarXEdge]

your Islaam is the common man Islam? It sure sounds like a bunch of farangy sophistry. Not sure how common man that is.

You have this arrogant self delusion that merely on account that you can make some snotty rebuke of something, veiled under caked stains of phony intellectuality, that you have "revealed the truth"; you have yet even begun to qualify your arguments.

You have made a claim, a claim is not truth in itself

instead of hiding in cowardice under bravado; please prove to us that islam is in fact what you claim it to be.

[Toramana]

You evaded his question again, and with false variables at that.

1.) Muslims of the time were mainly settled Arabs and few non Arabs; so it could not be Bedouin since Bedouin referred to unsettled peoples.

There were some Arab settlements...but the bulk of Arabs were Beduines. Beduinism was just a word I used to refer to the dominent character of Arab society ...not that every Arab was Beduine...

2.) There's no address of any particular issue which people of that time dealt with which could not or is not relevant now

Most of the issues cannot be resolved with those simple rules...You have some static, time-warped concept of religion....So, obviously, the more complicated problems cannot be solved with simple rules until you transform the system of laws.

3.) Misuse of the concept of a "null Set", , In Set Theory, Null Sets are subsets of all reals, and thereby have upper and lower bounds of -Inf to Inf, which makes it the root of all sets, since Null Set is Unique.

I cannot understand what you want to say...Use some notational system (for example used in propositional logic) to say what you want to. Empty set has an unambiguous definition in mathematics. Null set approximately means the same thing except in some disciplines of maths.

[ScimitarXEdge]

There were some Arab settlements...but the bulk of Arabs were Beduines. Beduinism was just a word I used to refer to the dominent character of Arab society ...not that every Arab was Beduine...



Most of the issues cannot be resolved with those simple rules...You have some static, time-warped concept of religion....So, obviously, the more complicated problems cannot be solved with simple rules until you transform the system of laws.

I cannot understand what you want to say...Use some natational system (for example used in propositional logic) to say what you want to. Empty set has an unambiguous definition in matematics. Null set approximately means the same thing.[/QUOTE]


Islam was revealed within Arab Settlements, Makkah and Medina ring a bell? These were ciities/townships. secondly where is your evidence that the "Bulk of Arabs" of that time were Bedouin, any statistical data? Not that would even make a difference, it's just you seem to have this idea that whatever you say is automatically fact. Reality does not work that way.

It's time you start having proof behind your claims; spouting inflammatory rubbish is not truth.

As for issues resolution; You're going on gross assumptions, for example who says a set pattern state of rules automatically equates into being static? Static means no process of movement. It's clear that in Islamic Law there's a system of operations, hence by definition cannot be static.

If you're arguing the concept of "Time warped" this is implicitly an Appeal to Novelty;

Please examine here why such an argument is a logical fallacy.
Logical Fallacies» Appeal to Novelty.

You clearly have a substandard understanding of Set Theory; Null Sets are sets with NO elements in them and in that their boundaries have a Unique Property of being opened and closed, since it's a subset of all reals from -Inf to Inf (short for Infinity) the the upper and lower bounds of a null set are infinite, hence it's a root set. Fundamental to all sets.

In Set Standard Notation it's expressed as follows

|_{0}_|= -Inf U |_{0}_|= Inf (^) {0}= Rt^n {V}

[Sangeen]

Who is a true Muslim by the way? There is no universal agreement about that in Muslims. Various Muslims sects have in turn labelled each other kafir e.g. if you are an Ikhwani, you are a murtad according to Deobandi belief...and if you are a Salafi /Wahabi, you are a kafir according to Barelvi belief.

My Islam is the common man's Islam. I am not excluding any one from the fold of Islam...I am simply pointing to some fanatic Muslims who want to live in the stone age and like others to return to that state too.

Rest, as for ANP, I am not an ANP follower but when I compare them with Mullahs I find them far better...From British Imperialists to Pakistani oppressors they have struggled valiently unlike Mullahs and fanatics who have been recruits for any power that could pay them or clever individuals that could opuimise with blind beliefs and herd them (like cattles).

Rest, it is not your prerogative to decide/declare who is Pashtun or who is a Muslim.

You cannot distinguish between culture and religion...one a static set of rudimentary beliefs/thoughts (if led by Mullahs) and the other a dynamic collection of precesses and lessons learnt from experiences. Kindly, rewrite your thesis.

I told you, you are nothing... exactly that neither Muslim nor Pashtun. If you do, do have some biological connection to Pashtuns then it is no less then a shame for your parents and a misfortune for Pashtuns around you.

Like a typical Munafiq you are changing your statement,

Did you not say that Islam is a NULL SET?

Its on the same page have a look there.

Regarding my Thesis, read my comments about this dynamic anomaly that you call pashtunwali is well explained by me in many many posts.

As far as the sectarianism is concerned, it is ignorance yes i agree but the difference is that we are not institutionalising this ignorance like you nationalistic wanna be commis are trying to institutionalising the hate to further your sick agenda.

Islam does not teach us Sectarianism, ISLAM teaches us Humanity and Brotherhood. But your message is to hate all, leave all, only stick with Pashtuns.

If this is so will you be kind enough to tell me whether should I stick with Yousafzai, Muhammadzai, Khattak, Afridi [spahi, qambarkhail, malikdinkhail, darawal afridi.......] Bauci, Marwat, Wazir or mehsuds?

Whom shall i stick with?....

I read your other posts where you were bashing Pakistan, Punjabis, Mahajer and whomever you could think off. That's all what you guys have got left to sell ... HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE .........

Cowards like you are scorpions as all what they have to give this society is poison... that is all.

YOU MEDDLE IN MUSLIM'S AFFAIR AND YET CALL ISLAM A NULL SET.

YOU LIVE IN PAKISTAN YOU EAT IN PAKISTAN YOU DRAW WAGES FROM GOVERNMENT OF PAKISTAN YET YOU HATE PAKISTAN.

YOU HATE ALL OTHER LIVING AROUND YOU -LIKE PUNJABIS, MAHAJER ETC - YET YOU TALK ABOUT UNIVERSAL SET OF HUMANITY.

I DO PITY YOU... I REALLY DO PITY YOU. YOU ARE IN A SAD SAD SITUATION. BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU WANT TO DRAG OTHER WITH YOU IN THIS ABYSS OF HATE

[ScimitarXEdge]

Toramana's issue is that he exploits and distorts rhetoric to smokescreen the logical deficiencies of his positions.

by calling Islam a "null set" he was essentially disregarding Islam which is essentially rejecting his oath to following it.

The rhetoric he tries to employ to regain ground and a last bid desperate attempt to regain credibility was "common man Islam"; but how does that even make sense? It loses logical coherency, Islam implies a certain model or framework which stems from the Islamic sources; how can his approach be Islam at all when he rejects the framework? Thus he cannot be reflective of Islam at all, nevermind the "common Man man's Islam".

The issues between differences between Salafis, Ikhwanis, Shi'a are differences WITHIN the Islamic framework, they all share the conviction that the Islamic system itself provides solutions and rooted in sources; their difference is their approach to those sources.

This is different than rejection of Islamic sources, which is Toramana's position; this is not an approach towards Islam but a LACK of approach. Therefore this whole smokescreen is an attempt to veil that Toramana has by his OWN words, admitted he is not Muslim.

[Toramana]

[/SIZE]

I cannot understand what you want to say...Use some natational system (for example used in propositional logic) to say what you want to. Empty set has an unambiguous definition in matematics. Null set approximately means the same thing.

Islam was revealed within Arab Settlements, Makkah and Medina ring a bell? These were ciities/townships. secondly where is your evidence that the "Bulk of Arabs" of that time were Bedouin, any statistical data? Not that would even make a difference, it's just you seem to have this idea that whatever you say is automatically fact. Reality does not work that way.

Mecca and Madina were little oasis in the vast Arabian desert, where Arabs had taken to sedentary life not long before (just in the preceeding couple of centuries due to carvan trade between Rome and India for which Mecca served as the camping place) ...they were'nt places of any high culture/civilization and the society there were still pre-dominently Beduines/tribal...The primitivism of Arab life could be gauged from the fact that they had not yet formed a state (one of the signs of civilizations)...There first attempt was the state in the time of the prophet...So, da aas dai bal khwa wathara

You clearly have a substandard understanding of Set Theory; Null Sets are sets with NO elements in them and in that their boundaries have a Unique Property of being opened and closed, since it's a subset of all reals from -Inf to Inf (short for Infinity) the the upper and lower bounds of a null set are infinite, hence it's a root set. Fundamental to all sets.

In Set Standard Notation it's expressed as follows

|_{0}_|= -Inf U |_{0}_|= Inf (^) {0}= Rt^n {V}

I presume you indulge in such technicalities to sound more logical (now who is appealing to novelty)...The property/rule related to empty set you have quoted above is used to specify its ordering relative to positive and negative infinity when real numbers are treated as ordered sets (order theory, lattices, etc.).

Why you do this and what is your point by mathematizing/technicalising layman discussions?

[fzpz]

Which moronic trader would take a detour in the opposite direction to camp at mecca when he has a straight shot through Persia and Anatolia? That's like going from the atlantic coast of america to the western coast and camping in honduras.

[Toramana]

Which moronic trader would take a detour in the opposite direction to camp at mecca when he has a straight shot through Persia and Anatolia? That's like going from the atlantic coast of america to the western coast and camping in honduras.

Because of the conflict between Persian and Roman empires, the spices from India could not be transported via land-route...and the consumption was mostly in Rome for its affluent population...So the ships sailing from India would turn overland in red sea near the Yimin border where Carvans (including sometimes hundreds of camels) would be waiting for them loading the things on camels and going north towards Iraq etc. camping in Mecca...

Another reason for the carvan trade was the cremation ceremonies in pre-Christian Rome in which an aromatic substance prepared from herbs/shrubs (probably Zafaran) and produced in Yimin was used. All that changed when the Roman Emperor (Constintine) accepted Islam along with the bulk of the population and Romans started burrying the deads instead of burning them...In 6th Century, Arab economy was in tatters...

[ScimitarXEdge]

Mecca and Madina were little oasis in the vast Arabian desert, where Arabs had taken to sedentary life not long before (just in the preceeding couple of centuries due to carvan trade between Rome and India for which Mecca served as the camping place) ...they were'nt places of any high culture/civilization and the society there were still pre-dominently Beduines/tribal...The primitivism of Arab life could be gauged from the fact that they had not yet formed a state (one of the signs of civilizations)...There first attempt was the state in the time of the prophet...So, da aas dai bal khwa wathara

Even if we take your assessment of things as fact, Makkah and Medina may have originally been camping places, but in the 7th century; they were in fact established settlements. There were homes, building, walls, barriers, all and even central meeting houses,, grain houses. All indicating settlement, not merely "encampment". What they were centuries before is irrelevant. Secondly what do you mean by "State" ; an established Central Government? If yes, then states have existed all over the Middle East at various periods of times in various forms. So your claim is bunk from the Logical Premise of the definition of State. Furthermore Islam developed a macrostate , which included Arabs and Non-Arabs alike all within the same century. Which totally nullifies your premise.

The evidence of this is the existence of numerous NON-ARAB companions of the Prophet, Salman Al-Farsi, Shu'ayb Al-Rumi, Bilal Al-Habshi, ring any bells.

Your claim here has thus been falsified.

I presume you indulge in such technicalities to sound more logical (now who is appealing to novelty)...The property/rule related empty set you have quoted above is used to specify its ordering relative to positive and negative infinity when real numbers are treated as ordered sets (order theory, lattices, etc.).

Why you do this and what is your point by mathematizing/technicalising layman discussions?

The point was you clearly don't have any idea what you're talking about. I can spot bullsh*t when I see it; I was calling you out on your bullsh*t.

When I point out your logical fallacies, it's not because I hope to change your mind and influence you to rectify erroneous positions; because I'm well aware you'll keep using them no matter how logically fallacious or inconsistent.

But rather it's so others can be informed of what's going on, so that when you use typical logical fallacies like Appealing to Novelty; they won't be taken by it and think that something's validity is based on it's time space event, but will be able to recognize such argument for being logically deficient and intellectually meritless.


sorry if that's a humiliating experience for you.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Because of the conflict between Persian and Roman empires, the spices from India could not be transported via land-route...and the consumption was mostly in Rome for its affluent population...So the ships sailing from India would turn overland in red sea near the Yimin border where Carvans (including sometimes hundreds of camels) would be waiting for them loading the things on camels and going north towards Iraq etc. camping in Mecca...

Another reason for the carvan trade was the cremation ceremonies in pre-Christian Rome in which an aromatic substance prepared from herbs/shrubs (probably Zafaran) and produced in Yimin was used. All that changed when the Roman Emperor (Constintine) accepted Islam along with the bulk of the population and Romans started burrying the deads instead of burning them...In 6th Century, Arab economy was in tatters...

That's nonsense; Arab Traders used to travel between Byzantine and Persia all the time and the conflicts between Persia and the Byzantines were not an issue at all. In fact Muhammad himself was a merchant and traveled to Damascus on numerous occasions and the issue of Persian and Roman conflicts never came up.

The Roman Emperor never accepted Islam, that's horse****; do you mean Roman Emperor accepting Christianity? Either way this amounts to nothing since it was known that traders had established trade routes in Northern Arabia near Syria which were perfectly accessible despite Roman and Persian conflicts. Are you familiar with the Ghassanids? They were Arabian Tribes of Syria who had established towns along the Syrian border lands with Persia.

and in the 6th century, Makkah was one of the most economically prosperous areas of Arabia. It was known for it's economic productivity; which is why the Quraish were much embroiled against Muhammad, because they saw him as a threat to their cultural practices and economic hegemony.

[Sangeen]

Ok, using the language of mathematics, I mean the UNIVERSAL set of which Islam is an empty subset (null set component) as for as women and other fundamental human rights are concerned. Islam itself is a snapshot of bedione culture and social conditions at that point of time and since then has morphed into an array of mutually irrecoconcilable sets of interpretations and superstitions static, incomprehensible, and anachronistic.

Pashtunwali is a culture, therefore, given to change. Kindly, don't blame culture for what is the general condition of many Muslims (specifically Arabs) who want to revert from their present under-evolved state to a de-evoloved state of a bygone age.

The universal set by the way best represents the views of most of the humanity( excluding few madrassa mullahs and some Muslim fanatics) with regard to human-women rights based on reason (aqal) and logic.

you are a murtad you called islam a "NULL SET". Tell us whom are you working for.

Dont run away from the direct question .... Why did you call Islam a NULL SET.


What are your objectives? I am directly questioning your objectives here.

I am directly asking you to tell whom are you working for and what are your objective by islam bashing?

Why did you call islam a NULL SET?