History of Pashtun Race & Resemblance to Arabs

[roadrunner]

Many "blood" Pathans or "Pashtun Asts" who no longer speak Pukhto, or practice Pukhtoonwale, but are offspring of Pukhtoons, want to stress a unique racial category for Pukhtoons i.e blood linage. It stems out of nostalgia and cultural romanticism towards their ancestral "heritage" where they can be homosexuals, transsexuals, apostates, porn stars, French speaking, Punjaabi speaking, Parsi speaking, Arabic speaking, Chinese speaking PUKHTOONS/Pathans without having to practice or live Pukhto. You know, people who view Pukhto the language, Pukhto the culture/heritage, as irrelevant, primitive, while adopting evolved industrialists identities.

These people unfortunately suffer from complexes, they are not happy with what they are born with, or who they have evolved to become. Therefore they want the whole of the Pukhtoon community to conform to their special ideas about who or what should be a Pukhtoon, and wish Pukhtoons to compensate for their illumination and enlightenment.

Utter bullshyt.

I don't believe you are a Pashtun btw. According to the criteria.

[Wrayun]

I don't believe you are a Pashtun btw. According to the criteria.

You can believe whatever you like, you don't matter.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Which is fine. But you didn't do that. You just quoted large parts of wiki, and if you look at the citations they were all bogus.

You do realize that people put irrelevant citations into wiki?

They were "all bogus" please explain to me, which ones were bogus and what criteria of asssessment you used to determine they were "bogus"

you realize that much like proving something requires certain procedures, denying something which has evidential and referential support requires the same rigorous response to thwart the legitimacy of the evidence.

I'll be waiting for your response as to why these sources are "bogus" and for you to demonstrate the criteria of what would qualify as "legitimate" and meritable sources.

[ScimitarXEdge]

I don't believe you are a Pashtun btw. According to the criteria.

Would that mean you're also not Pashtun, given that

in Pashto imandari= religiousness coming from the arabic word IMAN and dar , which is a Persian cognate for "possessor"

and Turah, could mean bravery, but it actually means sword, like "Tora-mana" same root

Namous, refers to "protectiveness of women" this is in reference to the guardness Pakhtuns have over the chastity and sanctity of women, not JUST "respect" (ehteram) for women. the acts of the afghan kings in the 20th century would conflict with Pakhtunwali hence, and perhaps I'm making an errorneous assumption here, but you seem to affirm their actions.

[Wrayun]

trollrunner copied his listed "elements" of Pukhtoonwale from Wiki. It's the only page on the web that has "imandari" as an article of Pukhtoonwale, whilst it is a general Islamic term/concept used all over the sub-continent. The actual substitute for "imandari", a Persian term which trollrunner wouldn't know best, is Khemayan in Pukhto.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Would that mean you're also not Pashtun, given that

in Pashto imandari= religiousness coming from the arabic word IMAN and dar , which is a Persian cognate for "possessor"

and Turah, could mean bravery, but it actually means sword, like "Tora-mana" same root

Namous, refers to "protectiveness of women" this is in reference to the guardness Pakhtuns have over the chastity and sanctity of women, not JUST "respect" (ehteram) for women. the acts of the afghan kings in the 20th century would conflict with Pakhtunwali hence, and perhaps I'm making an errorneous assumption here, but you seem to affirm their actions.

No, Toramana derives from a preIslamic Hunnish King's name:

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n.../toramana.html

I believe Toramana utilized this particular name per his notion that he is a reincarnation of this preislamic/"i.e. in his view precamelized pure Afghan stock" leader that thundered out of Afghanistan to bring devastation to the Gupta era of India. He did not reference the Islamic Abdali or marauding Nadir Qoli Beg because both represent a corrupted and "imperialized" Afghan status compared to this Hunnish King. In this way, he fantasizes he will bring an end to panjab dominance over where his Yusufzaay tribe is currently, and further entertains the idea that he may even establish dominance over the Panjab itself one day.

[roadrunner]

They were "all bogus" please explain to me, which ones were bogus and what criteria of asssessment you used to determine they were "bogus"

you realize that much like proving something requires certain procedures, denying something which has evidential and referential support requires the same rigorous response to thwart the legitimacy of the evidence.

I'll be waiting for your response as to why these sources are "bogus" and for you to demonstrate the criteria of what would qualify as "legitimate" and meritable sources.

We can start with this quote of yours from wiki

The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris to the areas west of the Indus. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions.

You were SO SURE of it you even highlighted bits of it.

Can you show me the reference for ANY of this stuff? (answer is no you can't because, although some genetic markers are shared between people from the Tigris to the West of the Indus, SOME genetic markers are also shared between people West of the Indus and in Indo-China). I hope you can see why this quote then is bogus.

It is trying to establish a genetic relationship when one does not exist. It is known as Pan-Iranianism which is a total bogus concept.

[ScimitarXEdge]

No, Toramana derives from a preIslamic Hunnish King's name:

http://www.hyperhistory.com/online_n.../toramana.html

I believe Toramana utilized this particular name per his notion that he is a reincarnation of this preislamic/"i.e. in his view precamelized pure Afghan stock" leader that thundered out of Afghanistan to bring devastation to the Gupta era of India. He did not reference the Islamic Abdali or marauding Nadir Qoli Beg because both represent a corrupted and "imperialized" Afghan status compared to this Hunnish King. In this way, he fantasizes he will bring an end to panjab dominance over where his Yusufzaay tribe is currently, and further entertains the idea that he may even establish dominance over the Panjab itself one day.

it's ironic to note that Toramana the Hunnish King, not the forum poster; is from Bamiyan, a place currently seated by Hazaras. .....is this guy possibly a Hazara in disguise?

Not there would be anything wrong with that, Hazaras are good people. I'm just wondering why a Hazara wants to be a Pashtun so badly.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Roadrunner I noticed that you conveniently left out the citation portion of my quote; any reason for doing that?

here's the quote again with the citation references.

Iranian peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris to the areas west of the Indus. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions. These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, as well as links to Europe and Semitic populations that live in close proximity such as the Arab and Jews.[72][73][74][75]


please explain what the flaw in the CITATIONS THEMSELVES are? I'm eager to hear this.

[roadrunner]

Roadrunner I noticed that you conveniently left out the citation portion of my quote; any reason for doing that?

here's the quote again with the citation references.

Iranian peoples - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris to the areas west of the Indus. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions. These results relate the relationships of Iranian people with each other, while other comparative testing reveals some varied origins for Iranian people such as the Kurds, who show genetic ties to the Caucasus at considerably higher levels than any other Iranian people except the Ossetians, as well as links to Europe and Semitic populations that live in close proximity such as the Arab and Jews.[72][73][74][75]


please explain what the flaw in the CITATIONS THEMSELVES are? I'm eager to hear this.

Here are the links from 72-75

• ^ "MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups" — Annals of Human Genetics . Retrieved 4 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Retrieved 14 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Comparing DNA Patterns of Sephardi, Ashkenazi & Kurdish jews" — Society For Crypto Judaic Studies . Retrieved 14 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Genes and people in the caspian littoral: A population genetic study in northern Iran" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology . Retrieved 14 June 2006.

Which of those link concerns Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anything close to West of the Indus?
For that quote from wiki to be true, you need to provide a statement showing a VAST FLOW OF GENES from people in say Iran, or Iraq to Afghanistan, which does not exist. Some overlap in markers will exist as they do between almost every population.

It is Pan Iranism, and Pan Arabism that you're preaching. I find both concepts absurd, much like Pan Indianism and Pan Turkism. Fairy tales.

(btw that link to the Journal of Judaic Studies is very very weak).

[Wrayun]

Hey trollrunner, whats your story, are you a Pukhtoon descendant? Pakistani, Indian, Iranian....what? Give us some background. Which tribe do you belong to...if any.

[ScimitarXEdge]

Here are the links from 72-75

• ^ "MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups" — Annals of Human Genetics . Retrieved 4 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Retrieved 14 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Comparing DNA Patterns of Sephardi, Ashkenazi & Kurdish jews" — Society For Crypto Judaic Studies . Retrieved 14 June 2006.
  
• ^ "Genes and people in the caspian littoral: A population genetic study in northern Iran" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology . Retrieved 14 June 2006.

Which of those link concerns Afghanistan, Pakistan, or anything close to West of the Indus?
For that quote from wiki to be true, you need to provide a statement showing a VAST FLOW OF GENES from people in say Iran, or Iraq to Afghanistan, which does not exist. Some overlap in markers will exist as they do between almost every population.

It is Pan Iranism, and Pan Arabism that you're preaching. I find both concepts absurd, much like Pan Indianism and Pan Turkism. Fairy tales.

(btw that link to the Journal of Judaic Studies is very very weak).

Pan Iranism and Pan Arabism? .....Are you out of your mind? The TWO COMPLETELY contradict each other!!!! hahhahaa

How can I be preaching both and "how" am I preaching ANY if at all?

What are the precepts of Pan Arabism or Pan Iranism, give me CITED references on what constitutes each. and I mean CITED references not a Chinese-American's opinion Editorial paper with NO relevant references.



so the actual citations aren't flawed, you said they are all bogus;

why is the link to the Journal of Judaic Studies very weak

You posted an article which is basically an opinion paper by some Chinese-American, why is her article "strong"

but Peer Reviewed Material weak? Explain.


You're obviously a rather daft fellow; since you need to be spoon fed

here you go

Due to its pivotal geographic position, present day Iran likely served as a gateway of reciprocal human movements. However, the extent to which the deserts within the Iranian plateau and the mountain ranges surrounding Persia inhibited gene flow via this corridor remains uncertain. In order to assess the magnitude of this region's role as a nexus for Africa, Asia and Europe in human migrations, high-resolution Y-chromosome analyses were performed on 150 Iranian males. Haplogroup data were subsequently compared to regional populations characterized at similar phylogenetic levels. The Iranians display considerable haplogroup diversity consistent with patterns observed in populations of the Middle East overall, reinforcing the notion of Persia as a venue for human disseminations. Admixture analyses of geographically targeted, regional populations along the latitudinal corridor spanning from Anatolia to the Indus Valley demonstrated contributions to Persia from both the east and west. However

[roadrunner]

Pan Iranism and Pan Arabism? .....Are you out of your mind? The TWO COMPLETELY contradict each other!!!! hahhahaa

You've mentioned about connections between Arabs and Pashtuns, now you're mentioning about the Pan Iranic fantasy. So yes, you can be both Pan Iranic and Pan Arabist, because you want master/slave relations with both.

The sad part of this is that you tend to ignore all the other relations that you would have to acknowledge if you were being unbiased.

How can I be preaching both and "how" am I preaching ANY if at all?

What are the precepts of Pan Arabism or Pan Iranism, give me CITED references on what constitutes each. and I mean CITED references not a Chinese-American's opinion Editorial paper with NO relevant references.

You want a research article. Pan Arabism and pan Iranism are such bogus concepts that you won't find any researcher stupid enough to try and make relations between Afghanistan, Iran, and Arabia solely. You're the one trying to make that connection.

so the actual citations aren't flawed, you said they are all bogus;

why is the link to the Journal of Judaic Studies very weak

You posted an article which is basically an opinion paper by some Chinese-American, why is her article "strong"

but Peer Reviewed Material weak? Explain.

Scimitar,

I noticed you call me stupid in this post. Normally I don't call people stupid, and I wouldn't be about to do so, but what you've just posted is the pinnacle of stupidity (i think it can be classed as acceptable given you called it me first).

Let me explain why. I mentioned in my previous post that YOUR CITATIONS contained nothing about Afghanistan or Pakistan (west of the Indus). That is the connection you were making, between Pashtuns, Iran, and the Arabs (Tigris). So in order to make this connection you need a citation involving Afghanistan/Afghan ethnic groups. Do you not understand this very simple thing? If not, don't waste time going in circles please.

You're obviously a rather daft fellow; since you need to be spoon fed

here you go

Due to its pivotal geographic position, present day Iran likely served as a gateway of reciprocal human movements. However, the extent to which the deserts within the Iranian plateau and the mountain ranges surrounding Persia inhibited gene flow via this corridor remains uncertain. In order to assess the magnitude of this region's role as a nexus for Africa, Asia and Europe in human migrations, high-resolution Y-chromosome analyses were performed on 150 Iranian males. Haplogroup data were subsequently compared to regional populations characterized at similar phylogenetic levels. The Iranians display considerable haplogroup diversity consistent with patterns observed in populations of the Middle East overall, reinforcing the notion of Persia as a venue for human disseminations. Admixture analyses of geographically targeted, regional populations along the latitudinal corridor spanning from Anatolia to the Indus Valley demonstrated contributions to Persia from both the east and west. However

1) this paper wasn't in your wiki references (Iran: Tricontinental Nexus for Y-Chromosome Driven Migration).

Your list of references was:
^ "MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups" — Annals of Human Genetics . Retrieved 4 June 2006.
^ "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Retrieved 14 June 2006.
^ "Comparing DNA Patterns of Sephardi, Ashkenazi & Kurdish jews" — Society For Crypto Judaic Studies . Retrieved 14 June 2006.
^ "Genes and people in the caspian littoral: A population genetic study in northern Iran" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology . Retrieved 14 June 2006.

You see how your wiki citations did not prove what your quote said?


---------------------

2) The article you quote is a good article, and I agree with it. But you really don't understand anything about the Iranian classification. The Punjab would be classed as an Indic group, yet it will share more genetic groups in common with, eg. the Tajik ethnic group, than with the Persian ethnic group. Yet Tajik would be one group that would be part of your Pan Iranic wiki theory.

Do you see how what you've said is incorrect? (or what your wiki article has said). Not only this, youve snipped off this bit

"However, significant differences were uncovered upon stratification of the gene donors, including higher proportions from central east and southeast Turkey as compared to Pakistan."

There is more Turkish influence in Iran than Pakistani (and it will include Afghani).

So the Tajiks will have some markers in common with Persians, but will have more in common with Panjabis, who are Indic. This makes your wiki quote incorrect, or just biased.

[ScimitarXEdge]

[QUOTE]

You've mentioned about connections between Arabs and Pashtuns, now you're mentioning about the Pan Iranic fantasy. So yes, you can be both Pan Iranic and Pan Arabist, because you want master/slave relations with both.

The sad part of this is that you tend to ignore all the other relations that you would have to acknowledge if you were being unbiased.



You want a research article. Pan Arabism and pan Iranism are such bogus concepts that you won't find any researcher stupid enough to try and make relations between Afghanistan, Iran, and Arabia solely. You're the one trying to make that connection.

Your argument is Logically False for several reasons.

This thread itself is about cultural similarities between Pashtuns and Arabs parallelism in customs and social ideals.

#1 You Make a Non-Sequittur, that even implying a possible connection between peoples, any people is not necessarily reflection of Pan-Arabism or Pan Turkish or Pan Iranism, nor does it necessarily suggest ancestral origins in Arabs, Turks or Persians, but perhaps common origins instead.

#2 Cum Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc; you assume that insinuating connections between middle Eastern/Central Asians Peoples, Arabs, Persians or otherwise on a genetic level is correlated to Ethno Centric movements,. This is false correlation. You actually have done this in other topics to

#2 You committed a Straw Man, if you were watching the debate my Posting of the quote was not in attempt to claim Pashtuns are descended from Arabs, but to demonstrate that Semitic People are "African" Blooded, when most semites are considered caucasiods.

You also committed a straw man by trying to make it seem that I was arguing on the legitimacy Pan Arabism or Pan Persianism ; I was asking for CITED references on WHAT CONSTITUTES Pan Arabism and Pan Persianism because you imply that alluding to some genetic connections between Central Asian and Middle Eastern peoples equates to ethno-centric motives, which leads me to the third point

#4 it's Internally contradictory; Pan Iranism and Pan Arabism, from what I can grasp are both centered on Ethno-Centric ideas of conglomeration; Each centered on their respective ethnic group, the two would nullify each other, so that you claiming I'm Pan Iranian or Pan Arabian, AT THE SAME time is grasping for straws. All Ethno Centric movements are bogus in my opinion, that includes Pan Pashtuns, Pan Kurds, Pan Chinese, Pan Europeans.

but in short you can't be Pan Iranian or Pan Arabian at the same time; because the two are in conflict; even if you suppose that this is done for "master/slave" relations, since the two masters interests would conflict.

You speak of religious people having low IQs, .....what IQ rank would you give someone who commits such absurd logical fallacies as these?

Scimitar,

I noticed you call me stupid in this post. Normally I don't call people stupid, and I wouldn't be about to do so, but what you've just posted is the pinnacle of stupidity (i think it can be classed as acceptable given you called it me first).

Let me explain why. I mentioned in my previous post that YOUR CITATIONS contained nothing about Afghanistan or Pakistan (west of the Indus). That is the connection you were making, between Pashtuns, Iran, and the Arabs (Tigris). So in order to make this connection you need a citation involving Afghanistan/Afghan ethnic groups. Do you not understand this very simple thing? If not, don't waste time going in circles please.

This is exactly why I said you're Daft; you clearly don't know how to debate nor do have you demonstrated any sense of Logical Comprehension ; you consistently make typical logical fallacies.

But no Matter I'm not here to smear you; I will repeat what I already stated; If you have been keeping up with this thread, which obviously you have not, The post had to do with Toramana's claim , that somehow the Difference between Semitic and Iranic is because of genetics; the post was to show that the distinctions are very superficial and that there's more in common with between Semitic speakers than there are differences.

1) this paper wasn't in your wiki references (Iran: Tricontinental Nexus for Y-Chromosome Driven Migration).

Your list of references was:
^ "MtDNA and Y-chromosome Variation in Kurdish Groups" — Annals of Human Genetics . Retrieved 4 June 2006.
^ "Georgian and Kurd mtDNA sequence analysis shows a lack of correlation between languages and female genetic lineages" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology. Retrieved 14 June 2006.
^ "Comparing DNA Patterns of Sephardi, Ashkenazi & Kurdish jews" — Society For Crypto Judaic Studies . Retrieved 14 June 2006.
^ "Genes and people in the caspian littoral: A population genetic study in northern Iran" — American Journal of Physical Anthropology . Retrieved 14 June 2006.

You see how your wiki citations did not prove what your quote said?

you must not be able to actually check the citations list because it's right in the citations portion of the article, as long as it's cited in the genetics section in the article, this corroborates the citations. Either way the point is corroborated. So where is the weakness again??? Yes , none it was there to do what it verifies. Demonstrate that the genetic distinctions are not as cut and dry as made out to be.

2) The article you quote is a good article, and I agree with it. But you really don't understand anything about the Iranian classification. The Punjab would be classed as an Indic group, yet it will share more genetic groups in common with, eg. the Tajik ethnic group, than with the Persian ethnic group. Yet Tajik would be one group that would be part of your Pan Iranic wiki theory.

You're confusing Linguistics with Genetics; a common fallacy peddled by people who believe that Culture and Genetics diffuse laterally. Which isn't always or even often the case.

Do you see how what you've said is incorrect? (or what your wiki article has said). Not only this, youve snipped off this bit

No because you're committing a straw man, your original contention was with the citations themselves, not what I was claiming, in fact you probably had no idea of what it was I was saying. I could postulate as to why you did, but I try to avoid personal smear, I already gave one or two remarks, that's enough. I don't want to derail.

"However, significant differences were uncovered upon stratification of the gene donors, including higher proportions from central east and southeast Turkey as compared to Pakistan."

There is more Turkish influence in Iran than Pakistani (and it will include Afghani).

The point here is not to demonstrate degree of something, but to show that cross fusion exists between Middle Eastern and Central Asian peoples, that the distinctions people make are extremely superficial.

So the Tajiks will have some markers in common with Persians, but will have more in common with Panjabis, who are Indic. This makes your wiki quote incorrect, or just biased.

The Wikipedia quote isn't saying that, and you're on a completely different tangent here. So you're actually projecting bias not proving bias.

[roadrunner]

Good grief. I've never met such a pathetic retort. All you've done is insinuated I'm saying that linguistics and genetics do follow each other. That's not the case. I've gone to great lengths to say that your "Iranian" classification that spans the Tigris to West of the Indus is a linguistic classification, and not a genetic one.

YOU claimed it was a genetic classification here:

The findings of this study reveal many common genetic markers found among the Iranian people from the Tigris to the areas west of the Indus. This correlates with the Iranian languages spoken from the Caucasus to Kurdish areas in the Zagros region and eastwards to western Pakistan and Tajikistan and parts of Uzbekistan in Central Asia. The extensive gene flow is perhaps an indication of the spread of Iranian-speaking people, whose languages are now spoken mainly on the Iranian plateau and adjacent regions.

I claimed that it was not a genetic classification here:

Can you show me the reference for ANY of this stuff? (answer is no you can't because, although some genetic markers are shared between people from the Tigris to the West of the Indus, SOME genetic markers are also shared between people West of the Indus and in Indo-China).

You then claimed I was the one who believed linguistic grouping are genetic groupings here:

You're confusing Linguistics with Genetics; a common fallacy peddled by people who believe that Culture and Genetics diffuse laterally. Which isn't always or even often the case.

This proves you're intentionally lying whilst stuffing in a lot of irrelevant Latin maxims, in the hope people don't bother reading what doesn't make sense.

You're quite an irritating person. Do many people not get on with you in real life?