Afghan Govt Anti Pashto Designs

[ijaz yousafzai]

Dear respectful Mr. Ijaz Yousafzai(Toramana),

I still don't know how I disrepected you. This means it was unintentional, if you see any disrespect from me.
I appologize, if I disrespected your respectful feelings and your character.Because character is given by God.You are Pashtun poet, writer, and social worker. For sake of your greatness please accept my appology.
But I don't appologize, if I disrespected your personality and thoughts. I have reasons for that. Personality can be fake. And Thoughts can be changed. This is what I think. You may disrespect it. I don't care for that.

And of course I will not stop the gibbirish hodge-podge, when I see anything against unity in Afghanistan. And I have nothing against unity of Pashtuns of both side of Durand line.


Your brother,

As you call me eccentric creature.

PS: Next time if you find anything disrespectful don't cry to Admin.
You are allowed to send me PM.

Dear eccentric wrora!
No heart burning any more! I accept your appology and respect your point of view, however I may not agree to it. We should learn to discuss things with an air of decency and respect but with solid arguments.Emotions reign supreme when a person finds his arsenal empty of plausible arguments. I am not that great writer, poet or social worker. I am a very humble, modest, down-to-the earth person and a selfless promoter and advocate of Pashtun unity and bright destiny.I consider Afghanistan as my Fatherland with my heart and soul, however I hate hypocrites in any garb.
I thank Toramana for his kind words and esteem.I feel my self miserably in-adequate to merit such honour.
You have bracketed two Nicks in the start of your post, and I apprehend that you might think that I am using both the Nicks. Let it be spelled out very clear that I Post under one Nick ( ijaz yousafzai) ,and Toramana is another proud and noble Pakhtun. The Admin can tell you that.

[ijaz yousafzai]

Ijaz sb

How unfortunate it is that your scholarly insight does not give due value to the fact that in statecraft engineering ,ethics is defined as the courtesy and tolerance shown by the majority to the minorities in a state and that is how Pashtuns and their status in Afghanistan should be looked at. They have to show courtesy towards the language,culture and religions of the minorities in Afghanistan in order to give them a feeling of nationhood [in the political sense of the word].

muhsina khor! Pashtuns make a big majority and hence may be looked as Big Brother in Afghanistan.I agree with what you said, however a Pashto saying goes, " Ma domra khog sha che sok de okhree ao ma domra treekh sha che sok de otookee".I am against " Stimyan" who dream to eat up your political destiny.

[muhsina]

Ijaz sahib

The majority factor based on demography was true in the past when wars were fought based on the phsyical might instead of techno-economic strength. However with the development of knowledge , awareness , science and technology the concepts have changed. I am afraid that mere majority based on demography might not be sufficient to give a nation glory and upper hand in the helm of affairs, the example being Jews vis a vis Arabs states combined to open our eyes.

My idea for reverting your attention was based on the following logic:

Take non Pashtuns into confidence,become a nation,develop political immunity, become a republic,focus on institutionalisation,develop industrial base, make democracy working and then your majority get authority in a natural and effective way. Any other other way to assert one' status is weak and temporary and we have witnessed it in Afghan/Pakhtun history where all the times it turned out to be a palliative treatment for the ills of our nation.

[Toramana]

Ijaz sahib

Take non Pashtuns into confidence,become a nation,develop political immunity, become a republic,focus on institutionalisation,develop industrial base, make democracy working and then your majority get authority in a natural and effective way. Any other other way to assert one' status is weak and temporary and we have witnessed it in Afghan/Pakhtun history where all the times it turned out to be a palliative treatment for the ills of our nation.

That is being overly idealistic. The cultural and ethinic landscape of the region is too criss-crossed and complex for such dream to be realised. It is like chicken teaching the duck how to swim (Obviously, the duck would win when it comes to practical swiming).

Besides, where is such plan in practical terms? All I hear from GRAND AFGHANISTANIAN is political centralization of power no matter in whose hands - a Tajakized Pashtun or a real Tajak- in return for a huge compromise on the language and cultural rights of Pashtuns (so Pashtuns would be the ultimate losers). I would love to see if arrangements could be made where different groups get autonomy in their respective regions with a weak central govt in Kabul. That would also give the degree of insulation to Pashtuns they need from foreign cultural influences and pave the way for broader Pashtun unity not to mention potentially generating conditios for wider regional understanding (with Tajaks, Baluch, etc.).

Such plan cannot be realised until there is a practical plan and political will to give and take.

[Wrayun]

Ijaz sb

How unfortunate it is that your scholarly insight does not give due value to the fact that in statecraft engineering ,ethics is defined as the courtesy and tolerance shown by the majority to the minorities in a state and that is how Pashtuns and their status in Afghanistan should be looked at. They have to show courtesy towards the language,culture and religions of the minorities in Afghanistan in order to give them a feeling of nationhood [in the political sense of the word].

Unfortunately such ethical courtesy and tolerance have made Pukhto the language, and Pukhtoon the identity, second class in Afghanistan. Tolerance is only bearable to the point when it is not threatening the majority interests and aspirations. The recent uproar over Islamization of some Western countries is a good example. It is happening in so-called very "tolerant" democratic secular Western countries. And they have their reasons, even if exaggerated.


I think many are misunderstanding Ijaz's point.

[khyaal]

That is being overly idealistic. The cultural and ethinic landscape of the region is too criss-crossed and complex for such dream to be realised. It is like chicken teaching the duck how to swim (Obviously, the duck would win when it comes to practical swiming).

Besides, where is such plan in practical terms? All I hear from GRAND AFGHANISTANIAN is political centralization of power no matter in whose hands - a Tajakized Pashtun or a real Tajak- in return for a huge compromise on the language and cultural rights of Pashtuns (so Pashtuns would be the ultimate losers). I would love to see if arrangements could be made where different groups get autonomy in their respective regions with a weak central govt in Kabul. That would also give the degree of insulation to Pashtuns they need from foreign cultural influences and pave the way for broader Pashtun unity not to mention potentially generating conditios for wider regional understanding (with Tajaks, Baluch, etc.).

Such plan cannot be realised until there is a practical plan and political will to give and take.

This is such an absurd logic. To gain political control a group must possess either naked power, i.e., a strong military backing, just as Punjab's (24% pupulation) dominance over 56% Bengali majority in the pre 71 Pakistani scenario, or it must have parliamentary majority. Even dominating civil bureaucracy can't make any difference.

Toramana! Your sole logic boils down to some pashtuns' aesthetic preference for Dari language which you are trying hard to prove as the hegemony of some imagined group in Afghanistan.

[Toramana]

This is such an absurd logic. To gain political control a group must possess either naked power, i.e., a strong military backing, just as Punjab's (24% pupulation) dominance over 56% Bengali majority in the pre 71 Pakistani scenario, or it must have parliamentary majority. Even dominating civil bureaucracy can't make any difference.

Toramana! Your sole logic boils down to some pashtuns' aesthetic preference for Dari language which you are trying hard to prove as the hegemony of some imagined group in Afghanistan.

No it is not that. In fact, you are hypocritical and dichotomal or contradictory at least. Why can't you then accept some Paki Pashtuns inclination for Urdu as aesthetic preference and stop sparing no time in condemning them?

Alas the GRAND AFGHANISTANIANS don't have a consistant, uniform, and so more moralistic view regarding the political and linguistic rights of different groups. And that is why the Pashtuns suffer. My friend Parsi is as much foreign as Urdu or Arabic is.

[Wrayun]

No it is not that. In fact, you are hypocritical and dichotomal or contradictory at least. Why can't you then accept some Paki Pashtuns inclination for Urdu as aesthetic preference and stop sparing no time in condemning them?

Alas the GRAND AFGHANISTANIANS don't have a consistant, uniform, and so more moralistic view regarding the political and linguistic rights of different groups. And that is why the Pashtuns suffer. My friend Parsi is as much foreign as Urdu or Arabic is.

Salute!

[muhsina]

That is being overly idealistic. The cultural and ethinic landscape of the region is too criss-crossed and complex for such dream to be realised

It is not more complex than India's ethno lingusitic scenario and they have practically achieved it like a host of other modern nation states. What idealism are you talking about? This has been the road map for the development of any nation state. The fantasies you are projecting on the contrary cannot be seen in any country which has a single race with a single language other than probably in Israel whose agenda is based more on their stupid religeous ideology like that of Pakistan and they still cant manage to have a workable solution to live in peace with the natives of the land.

Besides, where is such plan in practical terms? All I hear from GRAND AFGHANISTANIAN is political centralization of power no matter in whose hands - a Tajakized Pashtun or a real Tajak- in return for a huge compromise on the language and cultural rights of Pashtuns (so Pashtuns would be the ultimate losers).

If this was the case Pashtuns would have ceased to exist as the deciding factor in Afghan politics [[which they should as they have done nothing to safeguard their national interests and instead preferred their guinnea pig's role for their so called muslim imperialist neighbours and brothers all over the world.

I would love to see if arrangements could be made where different groups get autonomy in their respective regions with a weak central govt in Kabul. That would also give the degree of insulation to Pashtuns they need from foreign cultural influences and pave the way for broader Pashtun unity not to mention potentially generating conditios for wider regional understanding (with Tajaks, Baluch, etc.).

This will be a political blunder because first Afghanistan is not a federal but a unitary state,second the various ethnicties over the last 200 years plus have mingled and lived side by side so much that contrary to the situation in Pakistan where thers is no historic cultural and in some cases even religeous bonds between the diferent nations living as the federating units [atleast by name], the situation in Afghanisatn is that non Pashtuns would not like to have your imagined status even if the Pashtuns want to give them that status. They are Afghans and this status for them is much more useful as well as historically and culturally relevant than their status in their neighbouring countries where they will be aliens even if amalgamted.

Such plan cannot be realised until there is a practical plan and political will to give and take.

Just in less than half a decade Afghanistan has progressed so much and the proof is that even various factions of Taliban are talkign to the govt behind the scenes to get recognition. There is no secret society type plane neither for Afghanistan nor for any other underdeveloped country. Every country has to go through the process of progress as explined by poltical and social scientists. Afghans ar enot naive to know that in a very hostile neighbourhood and in the current conditions in which Afghans fought a 30 years long war and still war is being inflcited on them they should start talkign about the netty gretty issiues which will sink them all.

I would suggest these "realistic" suggestions should be given to the Pakhtuns in the occupied Pakhtunkhwa so they get their freedom instead of being in an occupied land and daring to suggest those who have not been polluted by the colonial legacy of the enslaved mentality brown masters. Your suggestions will help divide Afghans and it will be easy for the mulsim imperialists brothers to have them swallowed.

[khyaal]

No it is not that. In fact, you are hypocritical and dichotomal or contradictory at least. Why can't you then accept some Paki Pashtuns inclination for Urdu as aesthetic preference and stop sparing no time in condemning them?

You can't compare the two scenarios which are radically different. In Pakistan, Urdu has been imposed on us through legislation while the usage of Pashto even in predominant Pashtun assembly of Pakhtunkhwa is a punishable act. Pashto even as optional subject in educational institutions are rapidly losing ground.

In the posh area of Hayatabad inside the Pashtun capital Peshawar there is a strict ban on speaking pashto (only) whenever one enters his institution. So the status of Pashto's future in even Pashtuns' historic land is horribly bleak.

You can only see two pashto newspapers published with very limited circulations perhaps not more than two thousands, one of which is for disinformation purpose for the dispalced afghan community to instigate them against the present afghan setup, while the second one is owned by a kind person from Quetta.

Alas the GRAND AFGHANISTANIANS don't have a consistant, uniform, and so more moralistic view regarding the political and linguistic rights of different groups. And that is why the Pashtuns suffer. My friend Parsi is as much foreign as Urdu or Arabic is.

I'm not concerned with the origin or genealogy of farsi (though you are totally wrong about its roots) but at least pashto is the national and official language of Afghanistan.

Again you are so ignorant about the status of other languages in Afghanistan where even Balochi and Pshai programs and news are telecast from afghan national tv.

[muhsina]

No it is not that. In fact, you are hypocritical and dichotomal or contradictory at least. Why can't you then accept some Paki Pashtuns inclination for Urdu as aesthetic preference and stop sparing no time in condemning them?

Alas the GRAND AFGHANISTANIANS don't have a consistant, uniform, and so more moralistic view regarding the political and linguistic rights of different groups. And that is why the Pashtuns suffer. My friend Parsi is as much foreign as Urdu or Arabic is.

You cannot consider the case of languages just based on their linguistic merits or demerits and in an isolated system in space. We cannot and should not equate dari/Parsi with Urdu because Urdu is alien langauge [even for the Punjabis] which has been imposed on native people of the territory called Pakistan due to the Political and/or bureocratic power of mahajirs in a state where Pakhtuns being a minority are already suffering from political , economic and cultural aspects in addition to their fast vanishing language DUE TO THE STATE POLICIES.

In Afghansitan dari/Parsi is the langauge of the MINORITY, was made ONE of the official langauge by Pashtuns themselves [not imposed on them by others] and has much more cultural and historic ties with Dari/Parsi than Pashto has with Arabic or Urdu or any other so called Pakistani langauge.

The crux of the argument is that Urdu is imposed on us in Pakistan wherein we are in minority hence we condemn it in addition to condemning the political ,economic ,educational and cultural exploitation by the state.

In afghanistan none of them is true and Pashtuns have all the advantages which we dont have in Pakistan and if they cant serve Pashto or Afghanisatn it is due to their own indifference or inability which can only be taken care of the Afghan insitutions are strengthened for which exaggerating the so called ethnic differences is not going to serve as a panacea.

[Wrayun]

You cannot consider the case of languages just based on their linguistic merits or demerits and in an isolated system in space. We cannot and should not equate dari/Parsi with Urdu because Urdu is alien langauge [even for the Punjabis] which has been imposed on native people of the territory called Pakistan due to the Political and/or bureocratic power of mahajirs in a state where Pakhtuns being a minority are already suffering from political , economic and cultural aspects in addition to their fast vanishing language DUE TO THE STATE POLICIES.

In Afghansitan dari/Parsi is the langauge of the MINORITY, was made ONE of the official langauge by Pashtuns themselves [not imposed on them by others] and has much more cultural and historic ties with Dari/Parsi than Pashto has with Arabic or Urdu or any other so called Pakistani langauge.

The crux of the argument is that Urdu is imposed on us in Pakistan wherein we are in minority hence we condemn it in addition to condemning the political ,economic ,educational and cultural exploitation by the state.

In afghanistan none of them is true and Pashtuns have all the advantages which we dont have in Pakistan and if they cant serve Pashto or Afghanisatn it is due to their own indifference or inability which can only be taken care of the Afghan insitutions are strengthened for which exaggerating the so called ethnic differences is not going to serve as a panacea.

Nonsense, Urdu is as alien to Punjabi as Parsi/Dari is to Pukhto. Urdu was also possible by consecutive Afghan rules over Hindustan. If Parsi/Dari is close to Pukhto, so is Urdu i.e. half of it is Parsi the other half is Indic. Both civilizations have influence over the Pukhtoon heritage. Urdu is the state language of Pakistan, it is not just imposed on Pukhtoons but everyone since it is the national language. That is the case with every other nation where minorities have to yield to national articles.

Parsi/Dari is also imposed upon Pukhtoons of Afghanistan, this is why you catch Afghan leaders speaking in Dari to the nation and not in Pukhto. The majority is forced to accommodate to the minority. And to call those leaders that made Dari/Parsi an official language of the statehood "Pukhtoons" is like calling Qayum Khan a Pukhtoon. They had personal interests in doing so, since they and their tribal allegiances were part of the confederacy that sided with the Persians ever since Mirwais Hotak. These "Pukhtoon" leaders of Afghanistan were very much Persians themselves.

[Toramana]

It is not more complex than India's ethno lingusitic scenario and they have practically achieved it like a host of other modern nation states. What idealism are you talking about? This has been the road map for the development of any nation state. The fantasies you are projecting on the contrary cannot be seen in any country which has a single race with a single language other than probably in Israel whose agenda is based more on their stupid religeous ideology like that of Pakistan and they still cant manage to have a workable solution to live in peace with the natives of the land.

Ha, I pitty the the misguided thinking of the GRAND AFGHANISTANISTS (or Pashtun/Afghan Imperialists because they want to revive the Afghan Empire of the bygone days stretching from Jehalm to Bukhara under a Pashtun/Afghan hegemony) in their mental super-flight, they assume fantastic things forgetting that there is hardly any comparison between India with more than two millinia of cultural and civilizational continuity (if not political) coupled with a brilliant history of political struggle/tradition and a working democracy in a pretty adavnced stage--- and Afghanistan with a turbulent and fractious history and primitive social set-up not yet evolved enough to emabark on such kind of ambitious mission as other societies. This is not to mention the huge-resource base of India, a supportive landscape (Indo-Gangetic plain), and the robust economy conducive factors in holding people togethor and inducing in them a sense of unity and common purpose.


India is a Center of Gravity my friend of the historical human social event called Hindustani Civilzation. Anything remotly connected to it in terms of culture or values would automatically fall into this pit like a magnet attarcts a metal. Just watch on...Punjab will be soom its part again.


What is Afghanistan? It is not even a center of gravity for Dari Culture ...and not a center of gravity of Pashtun Culture as well by the way?


Be realistic my sister Muhsina. Your love for Afghanistan aside, aim at something that is achievable. Don't make false analogies while setting your political goals.

[khyaal]

Ha, I pitty at the at the misguided thinking of the GRAND AFGHANISTANISTS (or Pashtun/Afghan Imperialists because they want to revive the Afghan Empire of the bygone days stretching from Jehalm to Bukhara under a Pashtun hegemony)

Do you think Peshawar, Quetta, Swat, Banu, Dera Isamail Khan and 150000 sq km Pashtun land lies in Bukhara? Who told you this?

Afghanistan with a turbulent and fractious history and primitive social set-up. This is not to mention the huge-resource base of India, a supportive landscape (Indo-Gangetic plain), and the robust economy conducive factors in holding people togethor and inducing in them a sense of unity and common purpose.

India is a Center of Gravity my friend of the historical human social event called Hindustani Civilzation. Anything remotly connected to it in terms of culture or values would automatically fall in this pit like a magnet attarcts a metal.

What is Afghanistan? It is not even a center of gravity for Dari Culture ...and not a center of gravity of Pashtun Culture by the way?

Who, btw, suggested you to compare today's india with Afghanistan. To win the wit war you have gone into hallucinations.

[Toramana]

Khayal and sister Muhsina, you are tutological my friends. Look at the impact/effect of things not how do they happen. Whether you struck a melon with a knife or a knife with a melon the end-result is the same i.e., it is the melon that is cut accross. The same is the case with Urdu-Pashto and Dari-Pasho situation.

Both Dari and Urdu are foreign languages eating on the foundation and demographic space of Pashto like a plant sown under a huge tree unable to get enough nourishment to grow. That is why I insist Pashtuns and Pashto need insulation from both these cultures in the form a distinct territory with political self-rule.