Pronunciation of ڼ

[maneatinglizard]

I've never noticed this in spoken Pashto, but all the transliterations, as well as pronunciation guides and examples, I've seen seem to suggest that the standard way to say this letter is not how it's said in my dialect.

It's commonly translated with an r after the n. For example, کوڼ (deaf) is transliterated as 'Koonrh' on ThePashto.com. However, we pronounce it the opposite way, with a light 'r' (like the first half of ړ) sound that flows into an 'n'. It sounds more like 'Koorn' in our dialect. And I don't think I've heard it pronounced the other way around, but it could just be that I haven't noticed.

So is this just an odd transliteration standard? Or do other dialects pronounce it differently than I've described?

[salman47]

The 'nr' pairing is confusing, but the way I pronounce it is 'n' sound but with tongue curled backwards touching the mid-roof of mouth, then followed by a soft 'ړ' in fraction of a second.

[maneatinglizard]

The 'nr' pairing is confusing, but the way I pronounce it is 'n' sound but with tongue curled backwards touching the mid-roof of mouth, then followed by a soft 'ړ' in fraction of a second.

So, assuming there was no 'ڼ' in Pashto, would you spell your pronunciation like this?

کونړ

Our pronunciation would be spelt like this:

کوړن

[Traveller]

So, assuming there was no 'ڼ' in Pashto, would you spell your pronunciation like this?

کونړ

Our pronunciation would be spelt like this:

کوړن

I would treat the same way I treat other sounds with no equivalent in the Pashto alphabet. Just write it with a letter that is as close to the actual sound. In this case I would probably just write it as
کون or کوړ.
As for your other question related to how it is transcribed. You should remember that this sound is very unusual and Pashto is the one of the only languages that has it(I think Punjabi also has it but I'm not sure). I don't think there's much significance in the way it's transcribed.

[salman47]

So, assuming there was no 'ڼ' in Pashto, would you spell your pronunciation like this?

کونړ

Our pronunciation would be spelt like this:

کوړن

The 'n' sound I just described is a very unique sound. It is not 'ن' but closer.
Hence, it will compel us to make a new letter or write it the way [MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION] said.

[maneatinglizard]

The 'n' sound I just described is a very unique sound. It is not 'ن' but closer.
Hence, it will compel us to make a new letter or write it the way [MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION] said.

I agree that the 'n' sound is not like the regular 'ن', but what I'm interested in is where the 'r' sound goes. Your description seems to say that the 'r'-like sound goes after the 'n'-like one, but in our dialect, it comes before.

[salman47]

The 'n' sound I just described is a very unique sound. It is not 'ن' but closer.
Hence, it will compel us to make a new letter or write it the way [MENTION=19846]Traveller[/MENTION] said.

I agree that the 'n' sound is not like the regular 'ن', but what I'm interested in is where the 'r' sound goes. Your description seems to say that the 'r'-like sound goes after the 'n'-like one, but in our dialect, it comes before.

For example 'کاڼې': Here the 'ړ' goes away with 'ې', i.e. While saying the word, you hear something like 'kaañey', the 'n' sound becomes heavy and you don't hear the retroflex 'r' sound.

But if you only focus on the sound of 'ڼ', then you have this weird pairing of 'nr'.

[Traveller]

In recent weeks I have stumbled across some pieces of information relevant to this discussion. [MENTION=19985]maneatinglizard[/MENTION] was asking about how the word "کوڼ" would be spelled if the letter ڼ did not exist in Pashto. The interesting thing I found out is that ڼ did not exist in old Pashto(Rehman Baba's era) and Pakistani Pashto(at least in KPK and FATA) did not have it until the 1990's. And in both of those cases ڼ was transcribed as نړ not ړن . I don't know about the exact pronounciation but this answered Maneatinglizard lala's question about how the sound would be written if ڼ did not exist.

[زده کوونکی]

When Pashto words are transcribed into Dari, ڼ is replaced with ن so اتڼ is اتن which is how most Farsiwans pronounce it
In older Pashto orthography, ڼ was written نړ