The Confused Pashtun

[Badlun]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION] saib

This is subjective you like a source of a reference . For you some sources will be partial but for me these will be authentic. I cannot give sources which suit to your approach, liking or criteria.

You repeatedly criticize kahrajyan(foreigners) but Arabs of Medina were also foreigners in Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Central Asia, Africa and other lands when they started not only attacking these lands but also conquering them, annexing them, changing their religion, language and culture. Do you think the local people should have opposed their march and to day there would be no Islam out of Medina and Mecca?

Many are of the view that USA being foreigner should withdraw its forces from Afghanistan and else where. The withdrawal or defeat of USA/NATO in Afghanistan will be the defeat of democracy, development and the war against terrorism. The ultimate winners will be the barbarian Taliban and the war lords and Afghanistan will be pushed once again in feudal clashes and war among various ethnicities and religious groups and parties. USA must finish its real Jihad against the Taliban and once its Mission is fully accomplished may leave Afghanistan and may hand over all the power and authority to the Afghan forces and Afghan government. USA may not leave the Afghan people in lurch and may not create the same vacuum once created after the withdrawal of the former USSR otherwise the same mess will be created once again.

What USA should do is to rethink its strategy for Afghanistan and Pashtuns. The hearts of common Pashtuns should be won with books not with bullets. Democracy and development will indirectly wipe out the obscurantist bigots and terrorists. The bullets should only be used against the terrorists in an intelligent way so that the terrorists don’t cash the collateral damages against USA and win more sympathizers for their evil cause and against democracy, West and USA. Afghan people should choose between USA their savior and the Taliban bandits. For me if the choice has to be between USA and Taliban I shall definitely prefer USA and not the harsh barbarian Taliban. We must be grateful to USA who is the only country in the world really interested in exterminating the menace of Taliban and who is fighting our own war. USA is a friend not a foe and Pashtuns must cash this opportunity of the help extended by USA and may follow Japan after the World War II who befriended the US instead of fighting against the super power of the world and the champion of democracy , development and human rights.

USA or an NGO working for democracy and human rights in Afghanistan and Pakistan should use its funds on education, publicity and awareness. USA may start a special newspaper and a magazine of good quality in Pashto where the Pashtuns should be educated against terrorism and should provide good news and healthy entertainment. USA may learn from the past how communism won hearts even for its ugly agenda. There is a dire need of intense public diplomacy on the part of USA. Majority of things they are doing is good but people don't know and can’t appreciate it.

Sometimes I wonder USA inspite of its democracy, human rights, development, prosperity, international aid has a negative image problem and many hate this superpower in spite of all its virtues. This country has changed the life of many persons and families. Many poor people of the world after entry to this land of opportunities become prosperous which completely change their life standard and that of their families. I personally know many such persons and families.USA is spending billions of aid on poverty and social development. It’s extending all possible help against natural disasters. It’s running thousands of education and health projects through out the world.

Their war in Iraq and Afghanistan besides their national interest is against terrorism and dictatorship. What they lack is public diplomacy and positive propaganda to let the world know what they are contributing to the development of the world. Once people know it they shall start loving USA instead of hating this great country. They need propaganda as was done by USSR for communism although communism is worse than democracy and the record of USSR is bloodier than USA.

USA has fought wars like any other country, nation or power. Former USSR has not only fought wars but also conquered countries and made them part of the Union. We all know the history from Poland, to East Germany to Tajikistan to Afghanistan. The same was done by Muslims , by Pashtuns by Germans, by Turks and others when they were in power. It’s all power politics and balance of power game. This is what Realism teaches us. That’s why USA is not the only country or nation in this regard. USA like any other country or power has reasons for her wars.

We should not only look at USA only as a country which fights wars or invades others. At least it does not conquer countries physically like others. We should also consider its humanitarian, developmental and other positive role in the world as well as its own internal development and progress as a nation. USA may not be a paragon of virtue but whatever I know that they toppled communist, Nazis, fascists, and dictators and are now crushing extremists like Taliban and Al Qaida. I don't know a single case where it has toppled a democratically elected government.

In its own national interest it might have invaded countries but the same is the tradition of all big powers including Muslims and Pashtuns. What I know that except few very tiny states, USA has never physically occupied a country and has merged it with United States of America as was done by the former USSR and others. USA is not perfect and such kind of discussions may point out whatever they lack in their policies and strategies and if they are intelligent enough, can learn from such discussions so that they can better tackle world affairs being a super power of the world.

What I see is that USA being a state may look for her national interest first. This world is mostly based on realism and real politick not on idealism or wishful thinking. If USA cheats others, they may do it in their own interest. The cheated party may guard against their own interest so that they may not be cheated by USA. However USA being world super power may play more ethically, may not forget her good friends and may not let their allies and friends to feel cheated.

USA is a very strange country. Spending billions and trillions on humanitarian and other aids but does not cash it in public diplomacy. I am surprised that why USA not like the erstwhile USSR does not launch an ideological campaign for democracy and human rights as used to be done by the former USSR for the barbaric Communism. USA can earn hearts and minds of the millions of Pashtuns and Muslims if they launch such an intelligent propaganda program. USA can serve their savior from the terrorists, from poverty and ignorance.

I wish that some friends from USA , US citizens or the one who are living in USA to write and express themselves that how is life over there and how the ideal life people are enjoying in USA and which can be exported to other countries specially to the backward Muslim world and to the conservative world of Pashtuns. I wish the world may follow USA as a great model for success, happiness and great life. USA and its system may be followed as an ideology, as a code of life. Scholars should construct theoretical background for it , a philosophy and then a working plan as how the American ideals can be propagated in other parts of the world specially in Muslim countries, third world poor countries and in our case for Pashtunland.

We must take it very seriously that the defeat of NATO and USA will be the victory of the Taliban and Salafism which are highly antidemocratic forces and for them democracy is infidelity or Kufr. Also it will be the triumph of the warlords and other conservative and non democratic elements. We must strengthen the hands of our saviorm our helper, our friend and the one who has the panacea for all our ills. At the same time USA may change its policy and may give books to common Afghans and bullets to the terrorists. People in Afghanistan may also help the US and NATO forces so that they can easily target the wrong doers with out damage to the innocent citizens.

We must appreciate that contribution of USA towards democracy is more than its anti-democracy attempts or support for some dictators or kings as in Middle East. However USA like every nation first looks to its own national interest then interest of a friend or ally. But this trend for USA being the sole super power of the world may change as a super power may not think only as a country but a responsible state in the world affairs whose decisions not only affect its own people but the world at large. USA needs more propaganda for what they are doing. They do but don’t get the credit.

As ealier said USA is not the only invader or conqueror of the world. A long list of US invasions and intervensions can be made as in Panama, Cuba, Vietnam , the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan and else where but if we start making a similar list that how Arabs started from Makkah and Madina and conquered the whole known world at that time then the list of the wars of the USA will seem very tiny. Arabs not only conquered the land but also made it part of their empire and changed the culture and religion of the people they conquered.

We must be realistic in our approach and our subjective notions and prejudices may not hinder us in giving the credit to USA for its noble intentions and noble deeds. Before labeling me as a US stooge or whatever the readers may please read the article patiently and may comment on the substance not on the person. One may present an opposite case which will even help the USA to reform and improve.

This argument is also very weak that USA is in Afghanistan because of other ulterior motives as occupying the natural resources. How a rich developed USA will lose billions of dollars and hundreds of its soldiers just to occupy few hidden mineral resources in Afghanistan. Why not USA does so by investment and trade instead of launching such bloody wars. The main purpose of the USA is to do away with the religious extremists and terrorists which are our common enemies for both the US and for us the common Pashtuns. That’s why its our moral and national duty to strengthen the hands of USA and to request the US forces to stay till the menace is completely wiped out.

[khushal]

@Badlun,
The US defeated democracy in Egypt, so why should the people believe that the US wants democracy in afghansitan or anywhere in the region..

also the US brought in the books to promote militancy against the soviets.

http://www.pashtunforums.com/showthread.php?t=32195

[BarakzaiAbdali]

[MENTION=1772]BarakzaiAbdali[/MENTION] saib

This is subjective you like a source of a reference . For you some sources will be partial but for me these will be authentic. I cannot give sources which suit to your approach, liking or criteria.

The issue is that the source has a low impact factor and is known to be biased. It is like quoting Irshad Manji or a person with an agenda. You can quote it, but most rational and even minded people with reject the Council on Foreign Relations data and papers. They do not have the esteem of a Matt Hoh or Michael Scheuer in the eyes of most people.

You repeatedly criticize kahrajyan(foreigners) but Arabs of Medina were also foreigners in Yemen, Iraq, Iran, Central Asia, Africa and other lands when they started not only attacking these lands but also conquering them, annexing them, changing their religion, language and culture. Do you think the local people should have opposed their march and to day there would be no Islam out of Medina and Mecca?

No Badlun Saheb, this is usually what the militant secularists try to use as a propaganda front to attack Islam. The difference is stark - Islam was spread by God's will and is now nearly a millenia engrained in the hearts and minds of the people. When secular militants try to compare the two, the historical comparisons are nonpresent.

Many are of the view that USA being foreigner should withdraw its forces from Afghanistan and else where.

The most important many though, is the people of American themselves:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/09/support-for-war-in-afghanistan-poll_n_1502205.html

The issue is that militant secularists dont care about the concerns, needs, and wants of the kharij people either. To them, they are expendable lives.

The withdrawal or defeat of USA/NATO in Afghanistan will be the defeat of democracy, development and the war against terrorism.

No, because the largest terrorists, the inheritors of the most evil vile wretched person, Najibullah Ahmadzai, are the true terrorists terrorizing both native people and kharijaan. If the war ends then the secular militants will be seen for the trouble makers and war profiteers they are and exposed.

The ultimate winners will be the barbarian Taliban and the war lords and Afghanistan will be pushed once again in feudal clashes and war among various ethnicities and religious groups and parties. USA must finish its real Jihad against the Taliban and once its Mission is fully accomplished may leave Afghanistan and may hand over all the power and authority to the Afghan forces and Afghan government.

No, the US people are seeing the true evil face of the sycophant lazy militant secularists. Inshallah, they will leave and marginalze the militant seculars and make them fight with their own two hands instead of using other human capital/

USA may not leave the Afghan people in lurch and may not create the same vacuum once created after the withdrawal of the former USSR otherwise the same mess will be created once again.

This mess was also created by secular nationalist thugs/aka militant secularists in Pashtun lands when they asked the USSR to also try to do their dirty work. They are afraid of the vacuum because these people are usually soft handed and cannot tolerate the way the natives will pansee them.

What USA should do is to rethink its strategy for Afghanistan and Pashtuns. The hearts of common Pashtuns should be won with books not with bullets. Democracy and development will indirectly wipe out the obscurantist bigots and terrorists.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...216827676.html

No the evidence shows that when the natives learn they decide to oppose the militant secularists even more.

http://www.912communique.com/forum/topics/outrage-us-pays-gazillions-to-fund-taliban-university-shariah#axzz2bFFlBLY2

"The Taliban are the people who are defending this country,” said Hamad, a leader of the self-appointed Nangarhar University student council that organizes regular demonstrations against the U.S. and President Hamid Karzai’s government. “The foreign troops are invaders.” . . . In late May, hundreds of students rallied outside the Afghan capital’s prestigious Kabul University to protest against legislation that criminalizes violence against women. . . . This rise of extremism among Afghan students—some of the biggest direct beneficiaries of U.S. assistance—underscores the lack of goodwill that more than a decade of American taxpayer money has bought here. . . ."


The bullets should only be used against the terrorists in an intelligent way so that the terrorists don’t cash the collateral damages against USA and win more sympathizers for their evil cause and against democracy, West and USA.

The key will not be to use bullets against natives resisting occupation but to ensure they are used in an intelligent way against secular militants who are wreaking terror on the unfortunate native/indigenous people and the kharijaan


Afghan people should choose between USA their savior and the Taliban bandits. For me if the choice has to be between USA and Taliban I shall definitely prefer USA and not the harsh barbarian Taliban.

Badlun Saheb, the issue is not about your or my preferences, but about how militant secularists are ideologues and demagogues who set up these nonexistent clashes that would never happen in the ideal noninterventionalist environment that would benefit both people. The harshness and the conditions for the harshness were bought on by people like Salih Zeary and Najibu-Shaytaan

We must be grateful to USA who is the only country in the world really interested in exterminating the menace of Taliban and who is fighting our own war. USA is a friend not a foe and Pashtuns must cash this opportunity of the help extended by USA and may follow Japan after the World War II who befriended the US instead of fighting against the super power of the world and the champion of democracy , development and human rights.

The Okinawans understand that there are internal threats to autonomy thankfully. Also the Japanese were beaten into submission with two nuclear detonations. The key for advancing human rights is to wipe out or marginalize the ability of secularists to have any impact on local affairs.

USA or an NGO working for democracy and human rights in Afghanistan and Pakistan should use its funds on education, publicity and awareness. USA may start a special newspaper and a magazine of good quality in Pashto where the Pashtuns should be educated against terrorism and should provide good news and healthy entertainment. USA may learn from the past how communism won hearts even for its ugly agenda. There is a dire need of intense public diplomacy on the part of USA. Majority of things they are doing is good but people don't know and can’t appreciate it.

Sometimes I wonder USA inspite of its democracy, human rights, development, prosperity, international aid has a negative image problem and many hate this superpower in spite of all its virtues. This country has changed the life of many persons and families. Many poor people of the world after entry to this land of opportunities become prosperous which completely change their life standard and that of their families. I personally know many such persons and families.USA is spending billions of aid on poverty and social development. It’s extending all possible help against natural disasters. It’s running thousands of education and health projects through out the world.

The people of the US are good people, the best way to pay back their largesse is to free them from the yolk of fifth column citizens and the misrepresentative siren's song of the local minority secular militant terrorists.

Their war in Iraq and Afghanistan besides their national interest is against terrorism and dictatorship.

No this is mis representative - the true story is the Baath party type of people (local secular extremists) and the remnants of Najib's failed forces are the most ardent supporters. They are even worse than hypocrites. In 80s they worshipped Lenin and wanted to own even a lock of his hair. Now they hypocritically cling to secular capitalism

What they lack is public diplomacy and positive propaganda to let the world know what they are contributing to the development of the world. Once people know it they shall start loving USA instead of hating this great country. They need propaganda as was done by USSR for communism although communism is worse than democracy and the record of USSR is bloodier than USA.

USA has fought wars like any other country, nation or power. Former USSR has not only fought wars but also conquered countries and made them part of the Union. We all know the history from Poland, to East Germany to Tajikistan to Afghanistan. The same was done by Muslims , by Pashtuns by Germans, by Turks and others when they were in power. It’s all power politics and balance of power game. This is what Realism teaches us. That’s why USA is not the only country or nation in this regard. USA like any other country or power has reasons for her wars.

Yes but the difference is the danger of interest groups in doing what the founding fathers opposed - being able to drag her into other peoples conflicts. The ideal role of the US will be to leave and to take all their arms too an to force a marginalization of atmar type people and militant secularist terrorists.

We should not only look at USA only as a country which fights wars or invades others. At least it does not conquer countries physically like others. We should also consider its humanitarian, developmental and other positive role in the world as well as its own internal development and progress as a nation. USA may not be a paragon of virtue but whatever I know that they toppled communist, Nazis, fascists, and dictators and are now crushing extremists like Taliban and Al Qaida. I don't know a single case where it has toppled a democratically elected government.

In its own national interest it might have invaded countries but the same is the tradition of all big powers including Muslims and Pashtuns. What I know that except few very tiny states, USA has never physically occupied a country and has merged it with United States of America as was done by the former USSR and others. USA is not perfect and such kind of discussions may point out whatever they lack in their policies and strategies and if they are intelligent enough, can learn from such discussions so that they can better tackle world affairs being a super power of the world.

What I see is that USA being a state may look for her national interest first. This world is mostly based on realism and real politick not on idealism or wishful thinking. If USA cheats others, they may do it in their own interest. The cheated party may guard against their own interest so that they may not be cheated by USA. However USA being world super power may play more ethically, may not forget her good friends and may not let their allies and friends to feel cheated.

USA is a very strange country. Spending billions and trillions on humanitarian and other aids but does not cash it in public diplomacy. I am surprised that why USA not like the erstwhile USSR does not launch an ideological campaign for democracy and human rights as used to be done by the former USSR for the barbaric Communism.

Barbaric communism was the baby love child of the Pashtun secular extremists with Russia(who were thankfully a minority but unfortunately a vocal minority).

USA can earn hearts and minds of the millions of Pashtuns and Muslims if they launch such an intelligent propaganda program. USA can serve their savior from the terrorists, from poverty and ignorance.

I wish that some friends from USA , US citizens or the one who are living in USA to write and express themselves that how is life over there and how the ideal life people are enjoying in USA and which can be exported to other countries specially to the backward Muslim world and to the conservative world of Pashtuns.

They would tell you the key is that local people have to work out their own differences. This means three important phases:

1) Neutralization
2) Marginalizatin
3) Criminalization

of secular militancy and propaganda



I wish the world may follow USA as a great model for success, happiness and great life. USA and its system may be followed as an ideology, as a code of life. Scholars should construct theoretical background for it , a philosophy and then a working plan as how the American ideals can be propagated in other parts of the world specially in Muslim countries, third world poor countries and in our case for Pashtunland.

We must take it very seriously that the defeat of NATO and USA will be the victory of the Taliban and Salafism which are highly antidemocratic forces and for them democracy is infidelity or Kufr.

No Badlun Saheb, this is militant secular propaganda that thankfully now 70% of Americans and even large indigenous proportions opposed actively. The key will be to amplify the truth of the matter to limit the devastating effects this sort of message has on both the interests of indigenous people and kharijaan. True humanism should be pursued, which means exposing the false humanism and opportunism of these militant secularists

Also it will be the triumph of the warlords and other conservative and non democratic elements. We must strengthen the hands of our saviorm our helper, our friend and the one who has the panacea for all our ills. At the same time USA may change its policy and may give books to common Afghans and bullets to the terrorists. People in Afghanistan may also help the US and NATO forces so that they can easily target the wrong doers with out damage to the innocent citizens.

We must appreciate that contribution of USA towards democracy is more than its anti-democracy attempts or support for some dictators or kings as in Middle East. However USA like every nation first looks to its own national interest then interest of a friend or ally. But this trend for USA being the sole super power of the world may change as a super power may not think only as a country but a responsible state in the world affairs whose decisions not only affect its own people but the world at large. USA needs more propaganda for what they are doing. They do but don’t get the credit.

As ealier said USA is not the only invader or conqueror of the world. A long list of US invasions and intervensions can be made as in Panama, Cuba, Vietnam , the Philippines, Iraq, Afghanistan and else where but if we start making a similar list that how Arabs started from Makkah and Madina and conquered the whole known world at that time then the list of the wars of the USA will seem very tiny. Arabs not only conquered the land but also made it part of their empire and changed the culture and religion of the people they conquered.

No this is not true, the RAND corp type of mentality and secular militants want to spread this message. Rather, the reality is that Allah decided where and when Islam would spread. Thankfully, God sent his Prophet and the subsequent generation of companions bought his book to Afghanistan. This book will be the key to defeating the secular militancy that is destroying the peace of the world

We must be realistic in our approach and our subjective notions and prejudices may not hinder us in giving the credit to USA for its noble intentions and noble deeds. Before labeling me as a US stooge or whatever the readers may please read the article patiently and may comment on the substance not on the person. One may present an opposite case which will even help the USA to reform and improve.

This argument is also very weak that USA is in Afghanistan because of other ulterior motives as occupying the natural resources.

The ulterior motives are not the American people's but maybe some internal lobby interests and of course weak minded weak handed secular militants with many internal psychotic issues. Thankfully, Rand Paul, Michael Scheuer etal have noted their duplicity and will spread the message everywhere.

How a rich developed USA will lose billions of dollars and hundreds of its soldiers just to occupy few hidden mineral resources in Afghanistan. Why not USA does so by investment and trade instead of launching such bloody wars. The main purpose of the USA is to do away with the religious extremists and terrorists which are our common enemies for both the US and for us the common Pashtuns. That’s why its our moral and national duty to strengthen the hands of USA and to request the US forces to stay till the menace is completely wiped out.

The key moral duty is to once again neutralize, marginalize, and criminalise the secularist agenda since it is a group of militant secularists who have instigated war everywhere. Even this whole conflageration owes its basis to Saddam Hussein and other secular baathists who instigated original war with Iran. The goal should be to educate Americans about the threat fifth column people represent to their nation (secular militants internally) and come up witth a strategy that maroons the secular nationlist militants into doing the job they want to do themselves. This will in turn create harmony because their minority status will be obvious and the confounder of their vocal nature will be overcome, inshallah. Then peace will be there for Pashtuns and Kharijaan

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

Excellent piece. The key will be to continue to limit the influence of Pashtun secularists and marginalize them. The scourge of Pashtun militant secularism has created many local and international headaches for a peace loving world. Perhaps if Pashtunistan or loya Afghanistan is created, membership of ANP and the associated parties should be criminalized. The latter might be the only solution to ending their sustained interventionalism and treason.

The conservative element in Pashtun society has always been pro-Pakistan while the more secular element has been more independent-minded. In fact, the British and then the Muslim League employed many clerics to turn the masses towards them.

Pashtuns have been made to associate Pakistan with Islam and viceversa.

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

The conservative element in Pashtun society has always been pro-Pakistan while the more secular element has been more independent-minded. In fact, the British and then the Muslim League employed many clerics to turn the masses towards them.

Pashtuns have been made to associate Pakistan with Islam and viceversa.

I guess hopping on the lap of India, then Russia and now America to oppose Muslims is what you call free minded and independent.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

The conservative element in Pashtun society has always been pro-Pakistan while the more secular element has been more independent-minded. In fact, the British and then the Muslim League employed many clerics to turn the masses towards them.

Pashtuns have been made to associate Pakistan with Islam and viceversa.

Lets discuss. Thanks for the comment. Akhtaar dhey Mobaraksaa

No they, unlike Dr. Geuvara just picked a side that they thought was potentially A) less intrusive and B) conducive to their views on what might reform some of the disproportions and social ills of their society.

The idea was, as SK has noted above to fight fire with fire and view the Bipolar world as "my enemy's enemy is my friend." On top of this there was some element of respect for Lenin's subversive revolution, perhaps due to a lack of understanding it (he actually subverted the true will of the local soviets and his "Vazir" Trotsky led the murder of the very cadre of Kronstadt sailors that had used their bare hands to try and complete the revolution in the first place.

Dr. Geuvara's intellect far out did these people. When he noted Kruschev was using his island refuge as a bargaining chip instead of helping Latins gain autonomy from the shackles as he thought a purist Marxist state might, he denounced the Soviets. This in turn would lead to their tip offs to his eventual executioners about his attempt to bring independence to the main land. Whether one agrees of disagrees with his root ideology (atheistic Marxism) - one can at least admire his consistency of thought and his goal of staying completely true to his ideals irrespective of "kissing the ring" so as to speak. He would go on to renounce Russia as having as malignant intentions to his people as the Yankees.

When you dissect the actual history of ANP, what you uncover is that the charge of plutocrats conniving with mullahs flies back in their face; About a year ago I actually posted the names and credentials of various landlord affiliates of the ANP and will dig that up for you. The Marxist purist (but still a Russophile) Afzal Bangash gave a speech that discussed his dissatisfaction with the nepotism and feudal support of the Wali Khan faction:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/15374489/A...t-a-Tribal-War

Basically, the same charge died in the red wool ANPiites like to level against the British era stooges like Kooli Khan Khattak apply as much to the Pashtun Nationalists as they did to these folks.

The greater irony is the charge commonly leveled against Islamists of that era regarding who they colluded with (red, white, and blue "sages"). Yet so many forget Najibullah's famous NY Times address to the US to try to garner their backing after he lost Russkey support. So basically, these sort of Nationalistic Marxist thugs and their idols have no qualms talking about imported stingers being used by muj factions, but forget their flip flopping is preserved in print.

Rather, one of the things that the CIA has admitted is that while Islamists accepted some degree of largesse from them, the writings and preaching of radicals of that era and of that bent zeroed in on both super powers being a threat that would be dealt with in due time.

So what one is faced with is the admission that both of these guys, Toramana's modern day saints, and the aforementioned were "dipping their beaks as Toramana does today" into multiple dung paddies with the excuse of "my enemy's enemy is my friend."

So when the negatives of both groups balance out, the conclusion one faces is that the secular fascists were and continue to want to hoist a completely foreign ideology onto the people, while perhaps the Islamists took some indigenous concepts and put them on steroids. The problem with the former is that it reeks of a slave like mentality of imitating "the other" and one that relies heavily on contrived pseudo history and the with the latter that it can take theological concepts meant to nurture the soul and instead politicize them.

As an example, one can hardly call Mullah Powindah a secular Marxist nor can one label him as a collaborator with imperialism and the British creations.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I guess hopping on the lap of India, then Russia and now America to oppose Muslims is what you call free minded and independent.

This fact enrages these people. If you discuss it with them in person they start to stammer, turn red, and occasionally threaten violence. One Yusufzai doctor discussed this same thing with Asfandyaar and wrote an article about it - the latter became illogical, confused, and started to resort to labels even though the writer was familial wise affiliated with ANP.

The intellectual corner they get pushed into is this:

Q: So, why was it OK for you to accept aid and establish ties with Politburos and India but chide your adversary for accepting stingers and arms from Der Yankee?
A: No, no no, you got it wrong - the Americans are basically sons of the Brits and we are the party that to this day is ever ready to oppose crony capitalism and imperial incursions as our forefathers did.

Followup Question 1: So Russia had no imperial interests, with its foot on the neck of Uzbeks and Tajiks and other folks in the Caucasian region? Remember the cold war was a global dance and Orwell was very keen to note the Politburo was as involved in nepotism as the prior czarists were. So what is the gain? And what happened to the claims of humanism for all... do central Asians deserve less humanistic sympathy than your own?
A: These are Islamist claims.
Response: Uh no, I can cite you a multitude of history sources showing internal issues between Russian peasants being oppressed by Lenin himself to central Asians being crushed and Russianized. What say you then?

FollowupQuestion 2: So, recently your leadership keeps parroting the same line of consternation and drivel: If NATO fails then a bleak defeat has come to Pashtun interests and the region will be devastated. How do you justify on the one hand claiming you are consistent and ideological superior when you prostitute yourself out to the highest bidder?
A: What? How dare you, Islamo fascist! Those people were radicalizing and implementing British intrigues long before - we were always independent.
Response: Please refer to our initial question answer, you are stammering and repeating yourself and becoming irrational.
A: We bring womens rights, mixing parties, freedom of thought and speech, humanism for all and separation of mosque and state to permit advances and foment meritocracy! We were always being subverted by mad mullahs and the Brits because we were the true threat to their designs.

Question: So once again, why the flip flop since you are now supporting the same player you claimed you opposed.
A: Because their prior henchman seek to bring a foreign radical ideology that has made us backwards and is a threat to both of us.
Response: Oh I see, so this has nothing to do with autonomy of the will of the people - rather its about what you view as a degenerative ideology versus your own foreign inoculant? So basically you are willing to try and use the same imperial power you hated before to implement a completely foreign ideology at the barrel end of a pistol but you refuse to recognize that your opposition's ideology is actually a radical response to initial incursions done by your prior and current backers?

Question: So basically what it boils down to is a really simple concept: popular ideology versus your view of what is best - doesn't that make you a hegemon?
Answer: No I told you, the religious zealots have always been the true imperialist tools!

Question: We are circling the drain of repetitive ahistorical illogic here. Are you trying to tire me out by repeating inaccuracies or working in an intellectual vacuum? We both know that human nature is averse to radicalism of any sort over time. Whether it would be secular or Islamic or Marxist radicalism - when a focusing force is removed, internal struggle and dialogue often results in a period of low grade civil war and some equilibration process. Even America went through its bloody civil war. Maybe you and your adversaries should leave the rest of the world out of it and just fight a civil war. Just get at eachother and finish this once and for all.
Answer: You know that's impossible since Islamo fascists will always have the support of the imperialists - its unrealistic.
Response: No, I think we are circling untruths and lack of proof conceptually again. I think you are afraid. You are afraid that popular will would silence you once and for all and you need outside air to survive. Look at your behavior worldwide in terms of your current and past brethren. The evidence all over the place shows who truly has imperial backing in the print and in the money trail. Your boys in Syria and Iraq, the Baathists, etc etc and your colleague strong men in central asia with the ov endings to their names have an open money trail. Would you like to address this?

Violent threats and brain aneurysm follows.

[Toramana]

THere are secularists but then there are secular militants and secular extremists. Unfortunately, the militant secularists are the cheerleaders for interventionalism. The Pashtuns and the Muslim world will advance once it effectively deals with this subgroup and either extinguishes their ideology or at least neutralizes their disproportionate voice.

I don't think the secularists are a minority that has a disproportionate voice. They rather represent the mainstream view in Muslim societies, which represents a spectrum of secular shades of opinion(- that has been caused by global technological and thought phenomena and transformation- ) about the way personal and societal affair should be managed.

Contrary to what you say, it is in reality religious fanaticism of which you probably are the ugliest/evilest example is a fringe phenomenon held by an "infinitesimally small" minority that resorts to decreeing and divine sanctification to win the battle of ideas, grab power, stifle the opposition, and arrest the growth/evolution of thought and systems.

It is the evil of fanaticism that needs to be put into bottle for Muslim societies to gain internal stability and have the required social transformation to get parity with other advanced societies.

[Toramana]

I don't think Barakzai is psychologically a healthy person. He is rather worst than his Taleban heroes he idealizes. One can apologizes for and rationalize the irrationality of Talebans by ascribing their disgusting acts to their ignorance but this Brakzai has some intrinsic evilness to him like all sociopaths and psychopaths have and is, therefore, beyond redemption.

In my opinion, it is not just the responsibility of the mainstream Muslims but rather that of the entire humanity to send fanatics like Barakzai and his other cohorts to the dustbin of history for the world to be relieved of the risk of global clash and Muslim societies of persistent instability.

One can also understand his bitterness now that his Akhwani Mursi has been sent home because he wanted to monopolize power without giving space to others even the allied Islamist fundamentalist groups and failing to deliver on economic and governance front.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I don't think the secularists are a minority that has a disproportionate voice.

Wrong, Pew Polling and University of Maryland polling show you are wrong. When its the data versus Toramana's insane self derived opinion; evidence trumps Toramana every time.

They rather represent the mainstream view in Muslim society, which represents a spectrum of secular opinion- that has been caused by global technological and thought phenomena and transformation- about the way personal and societal affair should be managed.

The percentage of Muslims who say they want sharia to be “the official law of the land” varies widely around the world, from fewer than one-in-ten in Azerbaijan (8%) to near unanimity in Afghanistan (99%). But solid majorities in most of the countries surveyed across the Middle East and North Africa, sub-Saharan Africa, South Asia and Southeast Asia favor the establishment of sharia, including 71% of Muslims in Nigeria, 72% in Indonesia, 74% in Egypt and 89% in the Palestinian territories.

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-exec/

You really enjoy being wrong don't you?


Contrary to what you say, it is in reality religious fanaticism of which you probably are the ugliest/evilest and worst case example is a fringe phenomenon held by an "infinitesimally small" minority that resorts to decreeing and divine sanctification to win the battle of ideas, grab power, and stifle the opposition.

Oh no, your white hero Dr. Kull has shown with more data that you are wrong again. Blame your own countrymen, not me since this is their view not mine:
"But many say they share some of al Qaeda’s attitudes toward the US and substantial majorities endorse many of al Qaeda’s goals." page 3 of abstract

http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/pdf/apr07/START_Apr07_rpt.pdf

It is the evil of fanaticism that needs to be put into bottle for Muslim societies to gain internal stability and the required social transformation to get parity with other advanced societies.

No, I think hopefully with economic conditions going the way they are, America will have to make stark choices and abandon supporting you and yoru vocal minority (since its very likely the majority would marry their daughter to Mr. Andersen... Then the process of "de-baathification" can begin for ANP. LOLLLOL, maybe you will be on the ace of spades card and Asfandyaar will be the joker in the deck LOLOLOL.

1) Stage 1: remove external support and save America and Pashtun lands from the blight and parasite that is secular militantism
Stage 2: Begin a information campaign to make people aware of the history of these people and their funding sources
Stage 3: ENgage the public in a discussion about marginalizing this group
Stage 4: Allow them a political party but ensure the media and the public have strong control over who they can field as any sort of candidate
Stage 5: Begin trials and start developing penal codes to address their century long treason.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I don't think Barakzai is psychologically a healthy person. He is rather worst than his Taleban heroes he idealizes. One can apologizes for and rationalize the irrationality of Talebans by ascribing their disgusting acts to their ignorance but this Brakzai has some intrinsic evilness to him like all sociopaths and psychopaths have and is, therefore, beyond redemption.

In my opinion, it is not just the responsibility of the mainstream Muslims but rather that of the entire humanity to send fanatics like Barakzai and his other cohorts to the dustbin of history for the world to be relieved of the risk of global clash and Muslim societies of persistent instability.

One can also understand his bitterness now that his Akhwani Mursi has been sent home

Nice try. Everyone here knows what happened was a coup without real support except the treasonous Toramana secular militants of Egypt. Unfortunately this subgroup is a blight on peace for mankind as they are eating dollars that could be spent at home instead of abroad. Maybe if Rand Paul gets the presidency, Toramana will be isolated, marginalized, and finally penalized

because he wanted to monopolize power without giving space to others even the allied Islamist fundamentalist groups and failing to deliver on economic and governance front.

By the way, lets talk about real elections - no coup got ANP out of power... so how is that going for you? LOL.

Oh and final stage: Ask countries to extradite the parasite secular militants and fifth column citizens and then send them to the front lines to fight their adversary face to face. Basically formulate a plan with Stephen Harper to air drop Toramana into Wana or Helmand

[Toramana]

Maulavi Barakzai, you are holding onto a straw by citing that Pew survey. Every body has his own interpretation of Sharia suited to his/her needs, comforts, desires,and lust. If Pew were the case, secular and moderate parties would not have been voted to power in most of the Muslim countries (2013 Pakistan elections were a case in point---rather the national elections would have been won by rabid Islamists like yourself).

Don't fool yourself around with such subjective conclusions. If you go to Karakhanai Market near Peshawar, you will find the wine, hashish, and contraband selling Pashtun favouring Sharia. For him Sharia is an environment which will allow him to do things he is doing albeit with occasional visits to mosque and restrictions on women.

But I know you are living in your own world of delusions where an Akhwanist revolution is going to happen (based on evidence of Pew research) where secularists heads will be chopped as your twisted misanthropic mentality dreams about. That is not going to happen and I fear you are going to take your dream to grave.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Maulavi Barakzai, you are holding onto a straw by citing that Pew survey. Every body has his own interpretation of Sharia suited to his/her needs, comforts, desires,and lust. If Pew were the case, secular and moderate parties would not have been voted to power in most of the Muslim countries (2013 Pakistan elections were a case in point---rather the national elections would have been won by rabid Islamists like yourself).

Nice try. Thankfully Dr. Kull and his team prepared for secular militants who would try and distort the data and addressed subcategories, and even went further and went into sub sub categories based on country. The goal was to discern the view of sharia as it relates to "things Toramana doesnt like - i.e. the laws prescribe in the Quranic text."

http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

"Among those who want sharia to be the law of the land, in 10 of 20 countries where there are adequate samples for analysis at least half say they support penalties such as whippings or cutting off the hands of thieves and robbers.17 In South Asia, Pakistani and Afghan Muslims clearly support hudud punishments (see Glossary). In both countries, more than eight-in-ten Muslims who favor making sharia the official law of the land also back these types of penalties for theft and robbery (88% in Pakistan and 81% in Afghanistan). By contrast, only half of Bangladeshis who favor sharia as the law of the land share this view."

Regarding "secular and moderate parties" lets face it LOLOL folks in KP haven't voted for ANP because they want to drink, have free love, and pretend to be Muslims while committing treason like ANP. Rather, they have voted a new party in nearly every election. So dont get to hasty and toot your horn. Not too long ago it was you that was calling Imran Khan Taliban Khan. So by surrogate measures, your own voted for "Taliban Khan."



Don't fool yourself around with such subjective conclusions.

Subjective as in:
" Muslims also tend to believe sharia has only one, true understanding, but this opinion is far from universal; in some countries, substantial minorities of Muslims believe sharia should be open to multiple interpretations.."

Lets reemphasize that and dilute it down your secular militant brain washed brain: Barakzai is right that a majority have a belief in 1 binding sharia law, Barakzai is also right that Pashtuns tend to be even more conservative than most Muslim populations. Secular militants, are in the minority generally, and divergent views of sharia are a minority even in the shariat camp.

If you go to Karakhanai Market near Peshawar, you will find the wine, hashish, and contraband selling Pashtun favouring Sharia.

Thank you, now we know a way that the state can penalize you once the marginalization process/debaathification process is completed. You are basically the financier of such lewd things

For him Sharia is an environment which will allow him to do things he is doing albeit with occasional visits to mosque and restrictions on women.

Ahhhh but that is the rub - you even want to use the kharij topak to interfere with this even though the kharij doesnt care.

But I know you are living in your own world of delusions where an Akhwanist revolution is going to happen (based on evidence of Pew research) where secularists heads will be chopped as your twisted misanthropic mentality dreams about.

No, I dont think the death penalty is fair. Rather life imprisonment for leaders and reforming the secular militant foot soldiers and offering them a way to reintregate will be the way forward.

That is not going to happen and I fear you are going to take your dream to grave.

It may take some time, but inshallah it will happen. The world will be rid of this menace of secular militantism and both East and West will learn to cooperate based on mutual respect of each other's ideologies instead of the attempt to intefere or cater to vocal minority groups like your secular militant cadre

By the way interesting how you claim to be a protector and promoter of science, yet when the facts line up against you, your own secular militant beliefs guide your hand. That is the very definition of fundamentalism!

[Shamlawar Khurasani]

What is typical to these immoral infidels of the secular nationalist movement is that they are extremely emotional and irrational. The other day one of their leaders in the provincial council of Khyber Pakhtunkhwa was ranting again. He was objecting against the PTI government and the increase in attacks by saying, let us sit around a table and you tell us how many Pashtuns you want to kill, and we give you that exact number of Pashtuns so that you can kill them, and thereafter the killings should stop.

On facebook and twitter, the idiots were praising him for making this utterly ridiculous and preposterous statement.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

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