The Militant Mullah and Pakistan

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I agree with Maseed that Mullahs have not harmed any other community as much as us---Akhun Darwaiza used to ridicule us for the heresy of some Pashtun elders but at the same time was a loyalist of Akbar --the same Akbar who had invented Din-i-Ilahi---

Mullahs and religious people want to make Pashtuns vassals of others e.g. Arabs, Punjabis,---they most of the time serve foreign interests...

And the communists gave us flowers, chocolates, and massages.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Also, not that wiki is the strongest link on the subject, but the reference given is:
Poems From the Divan of Khushal Khan Khattak (translated from Pashto by D.N. Mackenzie), p. 102

Regarding this little gem from Khushal Khan Khattak:

"As mentioned the orthodox Pushtuns, the Yusufzais (sons of Yosef) and the Khattaks hated Pir Roshan's seemingly heretical ideas.

"It is indeed a bitter irony to read Khushal Khan Khattak's poem (written in Pashto) which he begins by attacking the Afridi (supporters of the Pir in the Tirah and Khyber) and then Pir Roshan himself:
Nas me Afridai dai
My Carnal nature's an Afridi,
Without a care for true religion;
With good thoughts it's not over burdened,
Being more prone to every evil.
I teach it pious orthodoxy
As steadily as did Darweza
But it goes on, like Pir Rokhan.
To preach its cursed heresy

Last I checked, your groups in KP hold up Khattak as the ideal nationalist (though I am sure hed disown you were he resurrected in the flesh today). In fact this is a testament to his devotion to in his own words "I teach it pious orthodoxy" ... not "I teach it pious Marxist agnosticism"

[ScimitarXEdge]

I agree with Maseed that Mullahs have not harmed any other community as much as us---Akhun Darwaiza used to ridicule us for the heresy of some Pashtun elders but at the same time was a loyalist of Akbar --the same Akbar who had invented Din-i-Ilahi---

Mullahs and religious people want to make Pashtuns vassals of others e.g. Arabs, Punjabis,---they most of the time serve foreign interests...

weren't the commies Russian stooges?

[ScimitarXEdge]

total Ownage of Toramana

[BarakzaiAbdali]

I too have read this work of Khushal Khan Khattak.
I was frankly quite surprised to see that he had addressed the Afridi tribe and Pir Roshan like this.

I have his poems in a book and will read through the original as well. I am not at all surprised. It just adds more fuel and weight against the mentally retarded theory that the Pashtun Communists here are pushing: Namely that Khushal Khan Khattak was like a Brad Pitt character and that the girls of Pashtunistan were like Angelina Jolie and that big bad OBL and the Arabs came and turned them into killing machines. In fact, Khushal Khan's work proves that whatever Pashtuns are, they are, by their societal nature, conservative.

Khushal Khan may have been willing to fight for localized autonomy, but he certainly would not comprimise orthodox Islam, no matter what level of adherence he held to it.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

If you put it like that, then yes. Any ordinary Pashtun, especially one of previous times would definately go out of his way to defend Islam.

What I was surprised about, however, was Khushal Khan critisizing his fellow Karlani tribesmen in such a way, as there is no enmity (that I know of) between the Khattak and the Afridi.

His relationship with them was complex. The Adam Khel Afridyaan gave Khattak refuge and there are many poems he wrote praising their beauty as people. They however were reluctant, as were other Khattak Khel and Yusufzai tribes to join his venture of a common united front against the Mughals.

The defender of Khattak feel that his switching sides, from Khan as vassal to open enemy, was not so much an issue of convenience as some allege, but evolution of thought. He seemed to have a late life epiphany that helped him see that no one can serve your own interests like you can...

[BarakzaiAbdali]

If you put it like that, then yes. Any ordinary Pashtun, especially one of previous times would definately go out of his way to defend Islam.

What I was surprised about, however, was Khushal Khan critisizing his fellow Karlani tribesmen in such a way, as there is no enmity (that I know of) between the Khattak and the Afridi.

The other fascinating thing about this, that the Pashtun Marxists and opportunists do not want you to think about is the following:

Various factions took up Sunni or Shiite Islam for convenience of based on prior rivalry. For instance, Hazaras, descendents of the Mongol Hoardes, and a permanent base of sorts in the vale of Kandahar and in southern Afghanistan took up Shiitism (they found themselves cut off and surrounded by the same natives they had previously ruled over)... The general Persian response to Arab incursions was to adopt the contrarian Shiite philosophy and to kill of huge swathes of Persian Sunnis.

And it would have been easy for Khushal Khan, who had already denounced Aurgenzaib's use of Islam to fend off attacks, to adopt the Roshaniite philosophy and use it as a rallying cry. In fact, he might have had a greater mass mobilization this way.

Instead, what did he do? He support Court Historian Akhund Derwazaa's orthodox sunni viewpoint on the matter, despite Derwazaa's clear link to the Mughal court.

This showed a great degree of honesty. He understood that he could not compromise the truth as he knew it, i.e. orthodox Islam.

[randolph85]

the thing is that besides our present situation, muslims have always acted independently of invaders and imperialists. even today in modern times with the mujahadin and taliban, to say most of these members were/are working for foreigners is ****in ridiculous. whereas every commie-atheist general to foot soldiers gun/uniform/barracks/walki talki was bought, made, and paid for by non afghans. show me a group of secularists in afghanistan who arent on a western payroll, how does abdullah times 2 or latif pedram afford his clothes? god knows they have no day job. i am no fan of the taliban but i far more respect a man who has bought his own clothes and lives day by day on the run for a cause than some secular lackey who hasn't worked a day in his life but somehow wears a thousand dollar suit and has a million dollar home in wazir akbar khan.

there was no pakistan to support the mujahadin against the british, there was no arab oil money, there was no cia to secretly dictate things.

[Toramana]

Commies and fanatics are alteregos of each other---And no use Pashtunizing the Akhwani allegiances through the crude attempts to prove Khushal a Pashtun nationalist to be an orthodox Muslim---Just study his dewan and you can see his colors...

[ScimitarXEdge]

^^^^....that's exactly what was done, one of Khushal Khan's own poems were used to demonstrate his appeal to Orthodoxy, a few mystical styled poems woudn't disprove Orthodoxy, since even Rumi was known as an Orthodox Alim, and most of the great Sufis were Orthodox.

[Toramana]

^^^^....that's exactly what was done, one of Khushal Khan's own poems were used to demonstrate his appeal to Orthodoxy, a few mystical styled poems woudn't disprove Orthodoxy, since even Rumi was known as an Orthodox Alim, and most of the great Sufis were Orthodox.

He was anything but an orthodox Muslim --a typical Pashtun firm on his stand, egoistic, indulgent, a man of all colors---And he has ridiculed Akhun of Darwaiza and other Mullahs the most harshly calling them parasites, etc. Just read his Swat nama.

But Barakzai is hell bent to prove every Pashtun historical figure an orthodox if not fanatic Muslim -- a desperate attempt to allign his foreign-rooted political and religious ideology with Pashtunism.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

^^^^....that's exactly what was done, one of Khushal Khan's own poems were used to demonstrate his appeal to Orthodoxy, a few mystical styled poems woudn't disprove Orthodoxy, since even Rumi was known as an Orthodox Alim, and most of the great Sufis were Orthodox.

The fascinating thing about above ^ is that when you study these people SXE, these party political fanatics... and its not confined to the communists and the marxists there... you see this phenomena in the supposedly Muslim parties as well... they invent a narrative.

Our life in the states has given us the ability to see two sides of the divide.. we are able to understand what our American colleagues do not in terms of how the "other" feels about his Empires incursions... and we are also able to understand the small minded view of these folks who have enslaved themselves there.

Its really intriguing... they first thing they do is size you up... then they start spouting rhetoric in an attempt to associate anything they see as uncomfortable with a "label." Its entertaining because they do not realize we grew up in an environment in which a dominant two party system allowed us to see the pitfalls and benefits of party politics.

This blinds them so that they are unable to discern anything that deviates from the party platform.

So in this instance, when a nazm, and a very pertinent one, from KK Khattak was put up, it was summarily dismissed.

Note that Khattak never says: I am the paragon of virtue, a Prophet of the modern era, all that I do is sacrosinct... hes merely saying: "I know BS when I see it."

So now, what Toramana doesnt understand is that even if he finds a stanza in which Khushaal Khan says:
I love beer and figs and rap music is great to dance to...

it doesnt undo the fact that he

A. Viewed orthodoxy as the IDEAL, not the standard
B. He was unwilling to do what the marxists do, which is malign Islam in this insane attempt to decouple the Pashtun from the ummah to achieve independence.

Its laughable really.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

He was anything but an orthodox Muslim --a typical Pashtun firm on his stand, egoistic, indulgent, a man of all colors---And he has ridiculed Akhun of Darwaiza and other Mullahs the most harshly calling them parasites, etc. Just read his Swat nama.

But Barakzai is hell bent to prove every Pashtun historical figure an orthodox if not fanatic Muslim -- a desperate attempt to allign his foreign-rooted political and religious ideology with Pashtunism.

Lol, why are you so perturbed? KK Khattak said those words... not me.
As I said, even if you muster all the verses in the world, there are no way for you to arrange the words to say:

"I Khushal Khan Khattak agree with the nationalists to the extent that Islam has been weaponized and orthodoxy does not agree with the Pashtun spirit. In fact, the Mughals rule over us using Islam and we need to deligitimize orthodoxy."

Moreover, he says in this poem very clearly what he thinks of Roshin, and Derwaza.

What does that mean Toramana?

It doesnt mean he is a Talib an Ikhwan etc... it merely means that he thinks you and your ilk are insane to think that he would support an effort to deligitimize orthodox Islam... in fact, as I stated, he uses the stanza to refer to Derwaza as orthodox.

So now, the onus is on you to find a verse where he says what you are saying.

Otherwise, explain the verses.

[ScimitarXEdge]

He was anything but an orthodox Muslim --a typical Pashtun firm on his stand, egoistic, indulgent, a man of all colors---And he has ridiculed Akhun of Darwaiza and other Mullahs the most harshly calling them parasites, etc. Just read his Swat nama.

But Barakzai is hell bent to prove every Pashtun historical figure an orthodox if not fanatic Muslim -- a desperate attempt to allign his foreign-rooted political and religious ideology with Pashtunism.

Even Sultan Mahmoud Ghaznawi was egotistic, and indulgent, in which respects?

there was a poem of Khushal Khan Khattak, translated and quoted for you, where he calls Pir Roshan a heretic and that he supported Akhund Darwaiza; the evidence speaks for itself. if anything it seems you're the one hell bent on trying to impose your heretical paradigm on Khushal, not what you claim. If you have proof to the contrary, post it here or simply admit your error.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Even Sultan Mahmoud Ghaznawi was egotistic, and indulgent, in which respects?

there was a poem of Khushal Khan Khattak, translated and quoted for you, where he calls Pir Roshan a heretic and that he supported Akhund Darwaiza; the evidence speaks for itself. if anything it seems you're the one hell bent on trying to impose your heretical paradigm on Khushal, not what you claim. If you have proof to the contrary, post it here or simply admit your error.

Good luck, this nearly nazi esque party ideology these folks carry is zealotry even worse than what any Wahabbi could muster. It would take Mamon himself to come and convince him that KKK wrote this stanza. His mind merely dismisses it. Remember, he made a claim that in the Swatnama KKK discusses Derwaza again. It has been a while since I have read Swatnama, but not once therein did he discuss Derwaza.

Moreover, many Pashtuns differentiate between the local mullah and a scholarly person. Khushal Khan venting about a mullocracy would be no different than what others here have said.. but that in no way implies that they dismiss Islam in its orthodox form.