Discussion about Rumi (Split)

[شمله ور خراساني]

May Allah forgive us. We rely on the claims of non-Muslims to attack one of the great friends of Allah. Allah Most High declares war on those who are hostile to His Friends (awliya').

O Muslims, O Afghans, there is a campaign by certain enemies of Islam (some are within Islam) to separate Muslims from their great Islamic tradition and culture. These people's hearts are hardened and darkened. You will find no mercy, no beauty, no adab in their speech. They disparage our scholars, they disparage our people, and they even disparage our mothers and fathers. They claim that our scholars, our mothers and fathers, our watan, and the majority of the entire Umma of Islam are misguided and guilty of kufr and shirk. They use these charges as justification for their fighting and killing Muslims all over the world. They are those who attempt to reform and distort Islam.

Alhamdulillah, the great fortress of Islam is mighty and strong, and will stand, no matter the wishes of the foolish who attempt to tear it down and construct something made of toothpicks in its place.

this is quite amusing to see an outspoken sufi to speak about some sort of a conspiracy of muslims and non muslims.

You are follower of clowns such as nu ha meem keller and hamza yusuf. The same people who have been cited by RAND corporation and other American thinktanks as tools to spread Sufism so that Muslims become subsurvient to American colonialism.

[شمله ور خراساني]

If you truly cared to understand something you would not throw nonsense and insults around before asking a question. One asks about what one does not know; one does not just speak the first thing that comes to mind.

When will you understand this, brother? Do you not see that this style of speech and discussion gets you nowhere? Do you not see how it turns people away? The temptation to speak from low emotions is from Shaytan. Fight it. Hold your tongue. Speak with adab.

nice speach about adab and speech from low emotions.

Yet you are here promoting a a homosexual poet.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar Jana, can you bring one of his poems that says anything as such.

[Mujib]

An edit to the previous post:

I have asked that your post be edited or deleted (I don't want you to think I was mentioning you behind your back). Not only have you attack one of the great scholars and saints of Islam, but you have attacked all of Afghanistan. You have attacked the parents of the Afghans on this forum by attacking a great scholar whom they love and revere. Do you claim our fathers and mothers and our elders read and love homosexual writings? Or do you claim they are stupid and cannot see what only you can see?

[شمله ور خراساني]

Mujib, you are a very weak person. The reason why you accuse me of insulting our parents and our people is because you have no other means to defend your "saint".

You use the same tactic over and over again.

I feel pity for you.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar, I agree with you, you have a good point, but you are also guilty of the same,no? You can't back your claims either.

[Mayana]

So now we're gonna turn our backs against our own God-sent geniuses like Rumi because non-Muslims label him gay? Because of what non-Muslims say we're gonna disown this vivid and splendid part of our heritage?
You expect us to do this and THEN sit there and wonder why nobody likes you as a Muslim? You know why they don't like you? Because you are not defining yourself you are letting other people define the word "Muslim" for you! You're letting Kafirs define who you are and who your scholars are, who is homophobic and who is homosexual.. You're letting Kafirs define what your principles are, you're letting Kafirs define what Islamic art and poetry is and then sit there and wonder why we're being bashed?!

This is a shame.

Just look at his life, look at his works, look at his love for God. You don't accept Sufis, that's fine (or not). But just because you support Wahabi teachings doesn't mean you can stigmatize Rumi as 'homosexual'. His love for God went beyond mine and probably beyond yours.. and probably beyond all of ours combined. You know why? Because if you can't even wrap your brain around his words and see the true meaning behind them and possess the audacity to stigmatize him for being gay.. it's too high for your understanding. It was Rumi who said that.. 'we are so lost in finding the right angle for the Qebla and praying in that direction, we forget the question "Where would you pray to if you were inside the Kaaba?" '
He brought spirituality to a whole different level; he is respected and loved throughout the world by people of ALL faiths, not just Muslims.. and here you are asking us to turn our back against him because some morons were stupid enough to use him as an example for homosexuality in Islam?! A shame.

[شمله ور خراساني]

So now we're gonna turn our backs against our own God-sent geniuses like Rumi because non-Muslims label him gay? Because of what non-Muslims say we're gonna disown this vivid and splendid part of our heritage?
You expect us to do this and THEN sit there and wonder why nobody likes you as a Muslim? You know why they don't like you? Because you are not defining yourself you are letting other people define the word "Muslim" for you! You're letting Kafirs define who you are and who your scholars are, who is homophobic and who is homosexual.. You're letting Kafirs define what your principles are, you're letting Kafirs define what Islamic art and poetry is and then sit there and wonder why we're being bashed?!

This is a shame.

Just look at his life, look at his works, look at his love for God. You don't accept Sufis, that's fine (or not). But just because you support Wahabi teachings doesn't mean you can stigmatize Rumi as 'homosexual'. His love for God went beyond mine and probably beyond yours.. and probably beyond all of ours combined. You know why? Because if you can't even wrap your brain around his words and see the true meaning behind them and possess the audacity to stigmatize him for being gay.. it's too high for your understanding. It was Rumi who said that.. 'we are so lost in finding the right angle for the Qebla and praying in that direction, we forget the question "Where would you pray to if you were inside the Kaaba?" '
He brought spirituality to a whole different level; he is respected and loved throughout the world by people of ALL faiths, not just Muslims.. and here you are asking us to turn our back against him because some morons were stupid enough to use him as an example for homosexuality in Islam?! A shame.

I don't need to be liked by ignorant people.

And no. I do not allow Kuffaar to tell me who is a muslim and who is not a Muslim.

It is funny, you people are outraged why Muslims do not consider Qadianis and Ismailis as Muslims. You people apply non-Muslim standards to call Qadianis and Ismailis as Muslims.

But when Western homosexual authors write dozens of books praising Rumi as a homosexual poet, we are not allowed to mention that?

LOL.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar, do you consider Mike Tyson a Muslim?

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Sangar, do you consider your parents Muslim. I know they are Hanafi Muslims.

[Mayana]

I don't need to be liked by ignorant people.

And no. I do not allow Kuffaar to tell me who is a muslim and who is not a Muslim.

It is funny, you people are outraged why Muslims do not consider Qadianis and Ismailis as Muslims. You people apply non-Muslim standards to call Qadianis and Ismailis as Muslims.

But when Western homosexual authors write dozens of books praising Rumi as a homosexual poet, we are not allowed to mention that?

LOL.

Of course you're not concerned about ignorant people not liking you. But you are letting those ignorant people define your opinions of other Muslims. =)
Personally, I don't use non-Muslim standards to 'define' who is 'Muslim'. We have one simple shahada going on; if you say there is more than one God or say there is a prophet/messenger after Mohammad, you're not Muslim. End of story. No need for outside sources, I have the shahada right here in my heart.

Of course you're allowed to mention that Western homosexual authors praise Rumi as a homosexual poet. But whether or not you believe that is a different story. If I go around and write 5 dozens of books in which I praise Barack Obama as Caucasian.. does that make Obama Caucasian? Or does that just make me an ignorant moron? Correct. It makes me a moron. Same goes for your homosexual authors, just because they call him homosexual doesn't make him homosexual. They're just desperately looking for a way to justify their lifestyle and are failing at it.. miserably.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Of course you're not concerned about ignorant people not liking you. But you are letting those ignorant people define your opinions of other Muslims. =)
Personally, I don't use non-Muslim standards to 'define' who is 'Muslim'. We have one simple shahada going on; if you say there is more than one God or say there is a prophet/messenger after Mohammad, you're not Muslim. End of story. No need for outside sources, I have the shahada right here in my heart.

Of course you're allowed to mention that Western homosexual authors praise Rumi as a homosexual poet. But whether or not you believe that is a different story. If I go around and write 5 dozens of books in which I praise Barack Obama as Caucasian.. does that make Obama Caucasian? Or does that just make me an ignorant moron? Correct. It makes me a moron. Same goes for your homosexual authors, just because they call him homosexual doesn't make him homosexual. They're just desperately looking for a way to justify their lifestyle and are failing at it.. miserably.

You see Mayana,

we've had this Sufism and homosexuality discussion before. And our very own exper in house, Qrratugai was back then braggin almost in every single thread that she is an Islamic studies student at Stanford University and she claimed to be very knowledgeable about Islam. So I asked her to go and find out whether Persian Sufi poets were known to be homosexuals or not. I mean she claimed to have access to vast sea of knowledge about Islam. She never accepted my request.

But I can tell you this. Right now I am in Holland. I have no access to books written by Muslims about Sufi practices of sodomy and their belief that sodomizing young beardless boys is a way to seek enlightenment.

In fact, in many Islamic countries people usually feared the Derwish Sufis and prevented their sons from going near them because they would be risking loosing their virginity in those Sufi Hadhras.

The only literature available to me that describes such practices are written by non-Muslims.

But if you go back to Afghanistan, and you go on a journey investigating the relationship between Sufi poetry and sodomy, you will find out how sick and perverted these people are.






This kind of sick and perverted "art" and "literature" is inherent part of the Sufi culture. And it is preserved and upheld for centuries.

It is not something secret or made up. It is what really happens in Afghanistan and many other Muslim countries.

[Roshina]

Only someone who has NO understanding of poetry, who does not know how to speak and think well, and who lacks all sense of interpretation and analysis would think that Rumi (Allah be pleased with him eternally) was gay. Chances are very high that those who accuse him of having been a homosexual have never actually read anything by Rumi but have only superficial knowledge of the arguments regarding Rumi's sexuality. What's worse -- they haven't allowed themselves to be exposed to the rebuttal of that sick argument!

I thought we all knew that almost all poetry by poets like Rumi had much deeper meaning than we assume. Obviously, we ourselves lack that depth and understanding, and so we think that Rumi was gay. That's to say that when a poet praises the "beauty" of someone of the same gender, there are many things you must remember, one of which is that the speaker of the poem is not necessarily the writer her/himself; another thing to bear in mind is not to take the verse out of context and keep on reading before and after that verse to make sure you understood it properly.

Anyway, anyone who thinks that Rumi was a homosexual needs to prove it form his books. And I have a book with his poetry, so I'll be able to verify it myself.

If you cannot do that much -- i.e., prove why Rumi was gay -- then you have no support for your claim. And I don't want the statements and interpretations of people who have decided what Rumi's sexuality was; I'm demanding Rumi's actual poems and other writings that show that he was a homosexual.

[Mayana]

What I get out of this is .. that I should be scared of Sufis because people back home were scared of Sufis?
People back home were scared from trees at night too, do you see anyone here running away from trees?
Sufis are misunderstood more than anything. People didn't understand what a Qalandar is, they didn't understand this "Haal" they're in, they didn't understand this "Khelwat" they sought, they didn't understand this 'Halaqa' they formed, they didn't understand this 'dance' they have. They thought they're bad people because dancing is haram and they're dancing so whatever that Sufiism is MUST be blasphemy.
That's not how this world works. Just because they didn't understand the basic concept of Sufiism it doesn't mean that today and here, I must decline to understand Suffism or that here and today I have the right to stigmatize people as 'homosexual' because I don't understand this love he felt for Shams. Sa'di wrote about similar instances, was he gay too? Or does this not apply to him because he wasn't Sufi? Or does it apply to him because he wasn't Wahabi?

It's an audacity to blame bachabaazi in Afghanistan on Rumi and Sufism in general. It went wayy back, back to Alexander the great who came from Greece and introduced this as a status-symbol. It's a European tradition; even Napoleon had his little boys.. It has nothing to do with Rumi, he praised Shams in ways we cannot comprehend because we have not encountered such a person.. but "people back home" lacked the education to truly understand this higher level literature and hence just were scared of 'Sufis' because they 'dance'.

[شمله ور خراساني]

Mayana, the ancient persia and the Aryans were known as cruel sodomists. They kept male sex slaves they mutilated for their own sexual preferences. That was long before Alexander the Great.

And I'm glad to see you are so knowledgeable about Sufism. Saves me time and effort to say more.

Oh and hi, Qrratu.