Kite Runner Debate thread

[Dinosaur Khan]

Re: Your Favorite Books

"adab-e-mubashirat"

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

Pashtuns are fond of everyone, we love everyone. But when someone starts ********ey withour heads, we know how to put them in there spot.
Tajiks are a ridiculous minority yet they are messing with a majority, They are making bad youtube videos about us, saying bad things about us, now even demonizing us in books, What more do you need? How do you feel knowing someone who is 20percent of the population is calling YOU Afghan e ghul? They dont even want to be called Afghan. They agree with the notion Afghan=Pashtun, how can you even dare to justify.

It is *exactly* what makes me more and more sure each time I hear a Pashtun talking like this that what Hosseini did MAY not be correct but it's perfectly justified with the way we tend to behave often, with regards to non-Pukhtuns. Your post is a main example of this, and it's really, really upsetting to witness such racism and animosity in our hearts and minds towards others.

And, as I mentioned in another post in this thread, how many of us are willing to write novels that will give Pukhtuns a better image? What are our reasons for NOT doing it? What's keeping us? It was his novel, and he had the right to say whatever in it he felt was justified; we have OUR right to say whatever WE feel is justified as well when *WE* write. So let's get to it. I live to see Pukhtun publications, particularly in the west. NOTHING is stopping us but ourselves. But why? I don't know; I can't figure it out.

Start a novel or a non-fiction book; base it on you real life experiences with the Tajiks, Hazaras, etc., and publish the book. If you have a problem getting it published because you're accused of "racism," lemme know -- I'll help you get it published. Don't use the excuse that "but I can't wriiiiiiiiiite!" No. That's not a good enough excuse to not write what you think needs to be write. Hosseini wrote what HE felt needed to be written, and because I know the difficulty behind such a move, I commend him for it.

I maintain my view: It was Hosseini's impression of Pukhtuns; he "universalized" it by publishing a book in which he didn't portray Pukhtuns so positively. Still, it wasn't just his view; it was fueled by SOMETHING. I have Hazara friends who tell me of their experiences with Pukhtuns in Afghanistan, and, although I've never lived in Afghanistan and don't know how racism rules there, I know that what my friends tell me has a lotta truth to it.

Again, talk about stereotyping non-Pukhtuns but then when others accept and publish the stereotypes against us Pukhtuns, look how we feel. I really don't understand.

Also, I think some of us may have been SO angered by the negative things he said about us that we didn't get a chance to see the good things -- like the respectful way in which marriages takes place in our communities, or how the main character (God I forget his name?!) was willing to marry a girl in spite of the rumors about her; he respected her by giving her a name in the community, a positive name, and how did he treat her after marriage? That love and respect! My God! Something to die for, I would think.

And his desire to help his half-nephew? How he went through all the hell he could endure to get him to the U.S. and all those efforts he made to provide him a good home. C'mon now.

Still, the bad things had some truth to them if we look hard enough. I've stated this in another post here earlier where I talked about stereotypes and how some of them are "true" and some of them are "false." I myself witnessed this enmity and hard feelings to "servants" and others who worked for us, so the way he treated his Hazara friend wasn't all that foreign. I could TOTALLY relate to it. I remember doing those things myself when I was a kid. (I know, I know, I don't represent all Pukhtuns.)

Also remember that he had many other characters in the book who were Pukhtuns and who were very well-off and good humans. Lemme go through the review I wrote about the book to remember the names better, and I'll get back with the "positive image" of the Pukhtuns that we refuse to acknowledge in his book.

[Shawonkey]

Re: Your Favorite Books

It is *exactly* what makes me more and more sure each time I hear a Pashtun talking like this that what Hosseini did MAY not be correct but it's perfectly justified with the way we tend to behave often, with regards to non-Pukhtuns. Your post is a main example of this, and it's really, really upsetting to witness such racism and animosity in our hearts and minds towards others.

It is not justified, someone associating you and your dad with rape is now justified? I must be living in the stone age, Excuse me. How is my post an example? The fact that I condemn such act of horror and I am upset you are using it as a way to portray me in a negative way? Not so fast sister.

And, as I mentioned in another post in this thread, how many of us are willing to write novels that will give Pukhtuns a better image? What are our reasons for NOT doing it? What's keeping us? It was his novel, and he had the right to say whatever in it he felt was justified; we have OUR right to say whatever WE feel is justified as well when *WE* write. So let's get to it. I live to see Pukhtun publications, particularly in the west. NOTHING is stopping us but ourselves. But why? I don't know; I can't figure it out.

I am, I will. Your argument is quite lame I must say,

You are implying "He said I hate Pashtuns in a veiled way, and since its his novel its okay"

Seriously now? Talk about fallacies. You need to stop following a false-dilemma.

Start a novel or a non-fiction book; base it on you real life experiences with the Tajiks, Hazaras, etc., and publish the book. If you have a problem getting it published because you're accused of "racism," lemme know -- I'll help you get it published. Don't use the excuse that "but I can't wriiiiiiiiiite!" No. That's not a good enough excuse to not write what you think needs to be write. Hosseini wrote what HE felt needed to be written, and because I know the difficulty behind such a move, I commend him for it.

You commend him for writing how we supposedly rape men and torture them? Seems like you are uneducated with the Pashtun,Tajik,Punjabi,Hazara conflicts.

He pours salt on our wounded relationships, and you are here applauding him. Wow, What a day to see.

I maintain my view: It was Hosseini's impression of Pukhtuns; he "universalized" it by publishing a book in which he didn't portray Pukhtuns so positively. Still, it wasn't just his view; it was fueled by SOMETHING. I have Hazara friends who tell me of their experiences with Pukhtuns in Afghanistan, and, although I've never lived in Afghanistan and don't know how racism rules there, I know that what my friends tell me has a lotta truth to it.

How do you feel about random people asking about if we are really as horrible as he says? Are you lacking common sense or something? So what you are saying is we Pashtuns are really that horrible?

Are you a Pashtun? Living in Afghanistan has nothing to do with this, A Pashtun from Pakistan is the same exact thing, He attacked our Pashtun nation of Afghanistan and Pakistan as a whole. And you are here applauding him, this is ridiculous.

Again, talk about stereotyping non-Pukhtuns but then when others accept and publish the stereotypes against us Pukhtuns, look how we feel. I really don't understand.

You are amusing. you really are.

Also, I think some of us may have been SO angered by the negative things he said about us that we didn't get a chance to see the good things -- like the respectful way in which marriages takes place in our communities, or how the main character (God I forget his name?!) was willing to marry a girl in spite of the rumors about her; he respected her by giving her a name in the community, a positive name, and how did he treat her after marriage? That love and respect! My God! Something to die for, I would think.

I already answered what I feel about his points above, the negativity outweighs the good.

And his desire to help his half-nephew? How he went through all the hell he could endure to get him to the U.S. and all those efforts he made to provide him a good home. C'mon now.

Yup, after we raped the younging, a Tajik saves him.

Woop, Superman!

Still, the bad things had some truth to them if we look hard enough. I've stated this in another post here earlier where I talked about stereotypes and how some of them are "true" and some of them are "false." I myself witnessed this enmity and hard feelings to "servants" and others who worked for us, so the way he treated his Hazara friend wasn't all that foreign. I could TOTALLY relate to it. I remember doing those things myself when I was a kid. (I know, I know, I don't represent all Pukhtuns.)

I am glad you don't, I would slap my self if you even thought you do.

[Talal]

Re: Your Favorite Books

no books life is already miserable enough with engineering.

[Master Khan]

Re: Your Favorite Books

I don't read books aswell,
I use to read joke books etc.

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

~sighs~ What can I say -- I gave my explanations Several times, in fact, lol.
I still find it funny and amusing that so many judgments are made so soon.

Still, I asked some questions which are still unanswered -- and so I'm still waiting, just in case someone can answer...
Manana.

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

Start a novel or a non-fiction book; base it on you real life experiences with the Tajiks, Hazaras, etc., and publish the book. If you have a problem getting it published because you're accused of "racism," lemme know -- I'll help you get it published. Don't use the excuse that "but I can't wriiiiiiiiiite!" No. That's not a good enough excuse to not write what you think needs to be write. Hosseini wrote what HE felt needed to be written, and because I know the difficulty behind such a move, I commend him for it.

Wow, I am astonished with your post. :o :roll:

Words cant sum up the level of contradictions.

Be a bit more specific about the "conradictions" you note in my post. Where are they? Paste my exact words.
I re-read my post in case you were right that it's contradictory ... but I don't see any. It's a reminder to Pukhtuns that when we write a novel, it belongs to us; it's OUR perception of whatever might be the case. So write one ... But, nope, who's interested in doing that? Too many of us would rather just sit here and condemn other people for doing what they did -- and we don't wanna make a move ourselves.

Sorry that everyone is so disappointed, but, really, I STILL don't understand, and NO ONE is trying to help me understand the reaction of so many Pukhtuns to the book. Most of us haven't even read the book but go by what others have said. C'mon now, maro, that's not gonna help in forming a better opinion (whether pro-Hosseini or his novel or anti-him/it) for a fruitful discussion.

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

Qrratugai always in the middle of these heated debates.

:D lol :mrgreen:
You wanna know something? ... It's always, ALWAYS interesting to see what people say/do if they realize that you disagree with then in SOMEthing, anything at all. You may not REALLY be disagreeing with them and only testing them to see if they know their stuff well enough, but their responses shock the heck outta you much of the time.

So far, no one has given me a good enough reason why I should say anything against Hosseini. Yet, I take the stance that Hosseini had *legitimate* reasons for whatever he did, and everyone assumes I'm in love with his novel and his portrayal of Pukhtuns; that I 100% agree with his view of Pukhtuns; that I don't care about Pukhtuns; etc. And that's what ALL the responses to my posts here have said. And I read them slowly and carefully and more than a few times to see if they might know what they're talking about, and I can't detect an iota of their understanding, or their attempt to see my point.

Now, when I said it's always exciting to test what people REALLY are like, who they REALLY are inside, I meant it. If I had said, "I HATE HOSSEINI! God CURSE HIM AND HIS PEOPLE! HOW DARE he do that to my beloved Pukhtuns!!!" and abused him in the worst ways imaginable, I BET you not a single person would've stood up to calm me down.

Why is that?

[tor_khan]

Re: Your Favorite Books

So far, no one has given me a good enough reason why I should say anything against Hosseini. Yet, I take the stance that Hosseini had *legitimate* reasons for whatever he did, and everyone assumes I'm in love with his novel and his portrayal of Pukhtuns; that I 100% agree with his view of Pukhtuns; that I don't care about Pukhtuns; etc. And that's what ALL the responses to my posts here have said. And I read them slowly and carefully and more than a few times to see if they might know what they're talking about, and I can't detect an iota of their understanding, or their attempt to see my point.

Now, when I said it's always exciting to test what people REALLY are like, who they REALLY are inside, I meant it. If I had said, "I HATE HOSSEINI! God CURSE HIM AND HIS PEOPLE! HOW DARE he do that to my beloved Pukhtuns!!!" and abused him in the worst ways imaginable, I BET you not a single person would've stood up to calm me down.

Why is that?

Paradoxically, I don't think that you always swim against the tide Qrratugai. Sometimes you happily swim with it or at least let it carry you. That's my own opinion and you know I mean no disrespect.

When is a good time to put Pashtoons under the microscope and dwell on all those behaviours that we're so infamous for?

Hosseini doesn't do much new with his book when it comes to the portrayal of Pashtoons, but I don't think his book is about developing Pashtoon thought either. He has his prejudices, some ethno-cultural-racial perhaps, and he makes this quite apparent in his writing. He is also writing for a western not an Afghan audience. I just wish more people would realise this with *trendy* :roll: writers from the East.

On the surface, I'm indifferent because for all the crude stereotypes that comes out of Hosseini's writing, the same behaviours are true of Tajiks, Uzbeks, Panjabees, green-spotted aliens etc.

Right now perhaps (without going into victim mode) Pashtoons are amongst the most vilified, feared/hated and manipulated people on the planet. Everyday there are columns, essays, articles, news reports written about Pashtoons. The vast majority of it is negative. If this writing were to be believed then we are all opium growing cavemen hellbent on destroying schools, roads and any symbol of progression and development. Our language is rough and not worth learning and we make no active contribution to human development.

Given that profile, why shouldn't the world's most powerful militaries target us without discrimination?

None of this, of course, bothers Khaled Hosseini.

[Shamaar]

Re: Your Favorite Books

It seems like people are getting a little off topic here... Maybe Admin Khan Sahib could separate the threads?

Anyway, I just finished reading this 7 book series by Stephen King. It's called the Dark Tower series, and I think it has to be one of his best works.

Stephen King's writing is always pretty dark but he leads into things nice and slowly here so it's not bad at all.

It's basically about a man's quest to find this tower and how at every step of the way he remembers (and regrets) the things he did in the past. It's like things keep repeating for him and he needs to learn from his mistakes.

Khair, I'll let you guys check it out. They're making it into a movie soon too.

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

Paradoxically, I don't think that you always swim against the tide Qrratugai. Sometimes you happily swim with it or at least let it carry you.

Well, should one ALWAYS swim against the tide, though, Tor Khana?
When is a good time to put Pashtoons under the microscope and dwell on all those behaviours that we're so infamous for?

That's my own opinion and you know I mean no disrespect.

Not to worry. I know you better than that, mara At least you know how to present your views in a way that makes it worth reading. Not everyone can do that.

Hosseini doesn't do much new with his book when it comes to the portrayal of Pashtoons,

I agree.

but I don't think his book is about developing Pashtoon thought either.

Does it have to be? Is it his job to develop Pashtun thought? Rather, is it his job to develop ANY race's thought at all?

Tor khan, do you notice the way Pashtuns have responded? Do you think it has been effective at all? How do you *think* we should respond to the book? What arguments should we be using? I mean, look around -- I can cite thousands of racist remarks on this board, so WE obviously have NO problem accepting stereotypes against other people, but when OTHER people accept stereotypes against *us*, we get all fired up.

I'm expected to be okay with that just because most Pukhtuns are okay with it and I'm Pukhtun, too, so I, too, should be okay with it?

He has his prejudices, some ethno-cultural-racial perhaps, and he makes this quite apparent in his writing. He is also writing for a western not an Afghan audience. I just wish more people would realise this with *trendy* :roll: writers from the East....
On the surface, I'm indifferent because for all the crude stereotypes that comes out of Hosseini's writing, the same behaviours are true of Tajiks, Uzbeks, Panjabees, green-spotted aliens etc.

Although I agree about the part that his audience is more Western, not Afghan, and Hosseini CERTAINLY has his biases (as do so many of us here and everywhere else in the world) and, in fact, his book is actually one of those that comes under the tag of "racism/racist," I can't help but saying this again: How many Pukhtuns are willing to represent *themselves*?

Right now perhaps (without going into victim mode) Pashtoons are amongst the most vilified, feared/hated and manipulated people on the planet. Everyday there are columns, essays, articles, news reports written about Pashtoons. The vast majority of it is negative. If this writing were to be believed then we are all opium growing cavemen hellbent on destroying schools, roads and any symbol of progression and development. Our language is rough and not worth learning and we make no active contribution to human development.

Maybe it's my extreme support and and applause for the idea of speaking up, be it against injustices or just to express your views, but I REALLY think that there's a devastating lack of Pashtun voice *locally* let alone universally! Let us speak up; let us get out there and write something meaningful and powerful AND give a better image of Pukhtuns; let us target the West as our main and most supportive audience. Let's stop playing the victim role for once and develop a bit of strength and confidence in ourselves to give ourselves a better picture in the world. If Hosseini could do it, we can, too. Most Afghans have *seen* war, and we have STORIES to tell! Why are we shying from the world and NOT sharing those stories?!

You wanna prove Hosseini's image of Pukhtuns wrong? Great -- then get to writing.

Given that profile, why shouldn't the world's most powerful militaries target us without discrimination?

So how do we respond to Hosseini's book, then? By coming on an online forum and cursing those who don't believe in cursing Hosseini or all Tajiks or Hazaras because of Hosseini's portrayal of Pukhtuns?

We REALLY seem to be in a need to learn the science of criticism.

None of this, of course, bothers Khaled Hosseini.

He lives a perfectly stable, happy, and successful life as a doctor in the West. It would bother him if he lived the average life of the average Afghan in rural Afghanistan.

Let's encourage the affluent Pukhtuns living successfully in the West to write on Pukhtuns' behalf. Maybe that'll do us a bit more good than would cursing each other on an online board. No? I might be wrong, who knows.

[Roshina]

Re: Your Favorite Books

Seems like everyone made their points clear, everyone is against you

Hi there, GoPashtunGo. You seem like a new member. Welcome!

In that case, look around; you'll see that everyone's *not always* with me on the points I make in *most* threads. However, I don't have a problem with that. In fact, it makes me happy -- so long as there's room for a healthy and stimulating discussion through which members will *learn* from each other. I purposely raise controversial points SO that those who read them learn how to present their views in a respectful and positive manner, which means that they will NOT curse and abuse each other for any disagreements that arise during the discussion.

SO! If *I* don't have a problem with everyone who expresses views that contradict or don't support mine, you shouldn't have a problem with it either, bro!

yet you can not grasp a simple concept of hate in a veiled manner in such a time where our relationships have been brutal in the past.

Maybe you're right, and maybe you're wrong, that I "can not grasp a simple concept of hate in a veiled manner." But that's not the point. If you read my posts carefully, I stated the following (quite a few times, actually):

We CAN have a dialogue about Hosseini's book, but when people say, "He's racist! I HATE HIM! He harmed Pukhtuns! All Pukhtuns should hate him!" etc., you need to be more specific. Give specific examples. Saying, "He gives all Pukhtuns the image of being homosexuals" is not specific enough; give me examples. Let's discuss each of the major characters, analyze their personality (and connect it to their race and make conclusions about Hosseini's (covert/evident) aim); let's also discuss the different events that take place and ponder over who all is involved in those events.

I *want* someone to convince me that what Hosseini did was *wrong* and *unfair*. Giving me general thoughts doesn't help with that. I WANT to be convinced, and I'm saying what I'm saying because I want to know who REALLY know what she/he is talking about. So far, only one member seems to know what he's talking about.

The other brother tried to make you understand but rather then answering you are dancing with your statements.

Call it dancing with my comments as you wish, but I didn't find his posts helpful enough in making me understand. Why don't you give it a shot, bro?

How can you be so blind when someone has attempted to tarnish our image at such a time and your weak attempt to justify is the freedom of speech card.

Prove to me -- using specific texts from the book -- how Hosseini has tarnished our image. I'll be waiting for your response. YOUR response, YOUR point, YOUR reasoning, YOUR justifications.

Do you also agree what the Danish cartoon author did was right?

Whether I agree with the Danish cartoonist OR with Hosseini is *not* the point; the point is *our response* that I have a problem with. I COMPLETELY disagreed with the response that Muslims worldwide gave to the Danish cartoonist, JUST as I *completely* disagree with the response of the Pashtuns to Hosseini's book. It's FINE to disagree with him, and it's fine to criticize him for portraying us the way he did, but what's NOT fine is the WAY we're showing that "criticism" of ours.

Why cause offence? Have you ever taken some Psychological courses to know what these kind of intentions can cause to the human mind?

LOL. That's cute. Look who's teaching who psychology

It seems like you are complaining more than actually arguing you have yet to post a logical reasoning to mankind on why he should not be opposed, If your playing devils advocate, I must sadly say you fail quite miserably.

Prove to me where I complained.
I will then prove to you where I argued more than complained by posting my exact posts to your response. k?

You remind me of people who follow nihilism.

Cool. So?

[pir_Rokhan]

Re: Your Favorite Books

The simple common sense fact which is not realised by the forum membersi s that in the world of academia mere disliking is not enough.It is considered as non academic approach to academic issues.This writer of the Kite Runner or any other book might have writtena biased book however the right approach to condemn or to show your displeasure is that Pashtuns should also write a book of the same calibre or may be better than that.

Showing resentment is exactly the same type of behaviour which we witness from some of our members while responding to certain threads which are against thought or domain of knowledge.Does Afghans have the intellectual guts to write a best seller which could compete the Kite Runner.?

Another point worth noting is that the real sincere person is the one who criticises you genuinly not the one who appreciates you fakely.The author might have writtenthe book with malintentions however a wise and mature approach is to note what type of wrong image is beign projected and whether it is based on truth or fiction.If its truth then we need to think over it and find out the causes and if it is wrong a lie then we need to counter it using the same medium,that is ,writing a book of that calibre not by just rantings.

As a stage drama of school standrd cannot compete a movie of holywood similarly Kite Runner cannot be refuted or cricised by writing an article.It has to be counteracted by writing a book if its calibre.

I hope the intelligent among our member would have got the hint I wanted to convey.

[Admin Khan]

Re: Kite Runner Debate thread

Guys, please stay on topic. I have now split the thread.


Thanks.

[Master Khan]

Re: Kite Runner Debate thread

I seen the movie of it and I think it was just kind of a hate towards Pashtuns of Afghanistan.
the movie was trying to said that Pashtuns are bullies etc..and that rape scene was just weird.