Evolution?Creation? Quran teaches both

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

...and that is just another creationist claim without any valid truth to devour!

Dearest sister, what do you mean by "creationist?" Second, dearest sister, are you saying that Allah does not exist?

[Roshina]

Whichever way you slice the cake you cannot separate Allah's involvement in evolution.

This thought is shared by many (theist) evolutionist and philosophers of religion. At the moment, their names escape my memory, but I will give you a list of them so you can look into what they've to say. But it's not the popular idea in evolution studies, though.

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

I did not understand you post, dearest and kindest sister.

[Roshina]

I did not understand you post, dearest and kindest sister.

Whose? Mine? If so, here's what I meant.

You imply in your post that whatever the case, evolution cannot have occurred without God's involvement.

So I said that that belief is shared by many who believe in evolution (at all levels), and I've read several articles by some theist philosophers who make the same argument. They basically say that God had arranged life and this world in such a way from "the beginning" (whatever the beginning must be) that, although He may not have "directly" been involved in making anything happened, He was involved nonetheless.

However, I added, that's not the popular belief in evolution studies, and not all those who believe in evolution believe that God's involvement was necessary in the occurrence of evolution; in other words, they believe, evolution would've happened regardless of God's existence/non-existence.

My point was to just say that you're not alone in that thought and that it's shared by many others (whose names I'll have to give you later only once I go through a book that lists different and opposing perspectives on evolution, philosophy, and God).

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Thank you, for clarifying. Dera dera menana...I am waiting for the list of names.

I am not a biologist, however reading the Quran and knowing it practically inside out, it is very clear that He was involved at every stage of evolution and is still involved.

If someone says that God is not and has never been involved, then the first question they have to answer is whether they believe in God or not. Then, and only then, one can proceed with logical reasoning, otherwise it would be a discussion that would keep going in circles.

[Roshina]

Damn it, I've lent the book to someone. We read it in our Philosophy of Religion class. It's a compendium of tons of articles, one after another refuting the claims made by the previous writer (it's divided into sections, of course, so you know what's going on). It was a really good one. I plan to keep it for the rest of my life.

But I just looked it up and it's apparently called "Theistic evolution." Others call it "Guided evolution." The latter one more specifically views each state of evolution as having been guided by God (and that without God, it wouldn't have happened at all). The link above takes you to Wikipedia, but it's a good presentation and summary nevertheless.

Quoting it:

In short, theistic evolutionists believe that there is a God, that God is the creator of the material universe and (by consequence) all life within, and that biological evolution is simply a natural process within that creation. Evolution, according to this view, is simply a tool that God employed to develop human life.

Alvin Platinga is one advocate of theistic evolution and Intelligent Design. Since this leads me to bring up the arguments FOR the existence of God offered by theist philosophers (none of whom seem to make any sense to me 'cause: "Everything was made by God. End of story." To me, it's more than that), but you can read about that here.

[erlangner]

there was an another thread for evolution. Why this new thread is there. Can both be combined.

I am really sorry for miquoting the sciencetific proofs and misguiding the people just to prove yourself right.

DNA it self shows that life is evolved. Because DNA is a constant structure throughout the animals and plants.

Someone says, that apes and human DNA are different, ya DNA of differnt human beings are also different due to which all human beings recognized by DNA fingerprinting. It means DNA of all humans are also different. Ya there are many similiarities as well intra-species and inter-species.

There are such huge number of proofs and evidences for evolution although many gaps, in my opinion really difficult to deny such facts.

Just an example of ontogeny repeats phylogeny. what a perfect history in three words.

I also believe that human being was created especially which is also supported by science and scientific theories, however, if why Allah did not creat a human being without digestive system, respiratory system, etc which the other animals have.

What then about the creation of toehr animals species?
Any proof of their separate creation or they developed through evolution.

[PFgulalai]

I am not a biologist, however reading the Quran and knowing it practically inside out, it is very clear that He was involved at every stage of evolution and is still involved.

MWMN, one might wish to look at few pedigrees of humans races to analyze how compatible is the thiestic evolution with the Evolution. If you think Quran or Bible (since Christians believe that God has been the main mechanistic force behind the changes in the world and they actually have been able to come up with really interesting arugments) has enlisted all stages of evolution or that whatever we know about evolution so far has been yet another miracle of the religion, then I am afraid to tell you that there is no mentioning of Evolution in Quran/Bible.

If someone says that God is not and has never been involved, then the first question they have to answer is whether they believe in God or not. Then, and only then, one can proceed with logical reasoning, otherwise it would be a discussion that would keep going in circles.

Logic is the "Science of the most general laws of truth". Scientific theories are considered true only if they satisfy the criteria of being true universally. Hence evolution which Darwin observed at Galapagos Islands is something I would observe in a population of bacteria grown on a petridish on regular basis. Therefore, I consider that religious claims about the evolution are pretty hollow in that they will never be able to bring a proof for a supernatural being's role in evolution. All that they do is to claim unreasonably every now and then. How do you prove that?

[شمله ور خراساني]

http://www.pashtunforums.com/religion-15/islam-versus-science-4214/

[MeemWawMeemNoon]

Gulalai, before we proceed, I have a couple of questions:

1. Have you read the Bible?
2. Have you read the Quran?
3. Do you believe that God exists?

[erlangner]

I do not understand why we all just search the things in Quran. Quran does not describe all the matters of this lfie and sceince, therefore God gave us 5 Kg weighted head in which about 2 kg brain is there to think about the matters.

It is clear that evolution is happening. Now how we can see if it is due to ALlah intention or happening itself. Athiest will interprete that it is happening accoridng to nature rules, and religous person will interprete that it si happeing as ALlah wants.

But to deny evolution is ignorance and just arrogance.

Because if i see something I will say ya it is present if Quran mention it one or another way. If I believe in Quran then I will for sure say, either I didnot understand Quran or I read wrong intrepretation. But when I see the thing with my eyes I cannot deny it, I will not tell a lie. I observed and felt evolution has occured. In my belief Quran is not opposing it as well.
I also read this book, Evolution deciets, is nothing except some non-sense interpretation just to prove himself right.

The matter is the feeling of facts, not of proving oneself right or wrong.

[erlangner]

One thing more I wnated to add, Evolution is purely a scientific discussion and how a Mullah, or a poet can discuss it, because it is not a Khulasa, Munya which describe ablution or ammen blijahr, and not a poem but a theory standing on facts.

But I did not see any scientific discussion, just atheists, theists discussion, therefore scientific discussion is needed dear

[Toramana]

Hi, theory of evolution has been applied in some modern fields as well e.g., Computing and Optimization, where a population of solutions (called individuals) to a computationally hard problem is subjected to a process of evolution involving selection, reproduction, mutation, etc. in order to yeild improved solutions over a number of generations until an optimal solution is found. This is called Evolutionary Computation ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_computation ) and includes many branches inspired from biological evolution. Some are Genetic Algorithm ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_algorithm ), Genetic Programming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_programming ), Evolution Strategy ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_strategy ), etc.

Evolutionary Computation has proven to be an effective approach for many problems.

It is unfortunate that this topic didn't caught my attention before. But I am very happy that Qrratugai, Gulalai, Lewanaye Zalmay, etc. have debated very well and informed us of many aspects of the theory of evolution. Bravo again.

[Toramana]

Here is my answer to Guley. What if it is proven tommorrow beyond an iota of doubt that humans evolved from apes? Would you deny the truth? Yours seems to be the same stance as that of medieval scholars/clergy who based their view of the design of the solar system on the model by Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy )that considered the earth to be static and at the center with the sun and other stars revolving around it. When Copernecus ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolaus_Copernicus) proved it the other way round, he was ridiculed.

As for Quran and Science, such has also been the behaviour of Christian priests during 14th-17th centuries who opposed scientific knowledge and discoveries but when such knowledge became an established fact, they, the priests, started claiming that it was already foretold in the Bible.

[PFgulalai]

MWMN, I was actually waiting for my answers but never mind, I can address yours. I have read enough to have a decent discussion with you. So far your MOST IMPORTANT question of my belief is concerned, yes I do believe in GOD as much as I believe in the fairy tales. And here I put your argument: so you will ask me to bring the verses from Bible/Quran to justify my stance; then you will tell me that since your belief is not as strong (since for you God=fairy tales) hence you cannot think from a creationist's point of view and I would not be able to get a single proof from you that Holy books have described the process of Evolution already.

I would like to know your argument now..

Gulalai, before we proceed, I have a couple of questions:

1. Have you read the Bible?
2. Have you read the Quran?
3. Do you believe that God exists?