Islamic versus scientific research

[Toramana]

[faye]

these are crude, extreme and prejudicial cartoons, that you put up toramana.
they are offensive.
the muslims had a golden age and scientific and other knowledge that they developed is part of the knowledge that is used today.

[Breshna]

Faye speaks facts at least.

[Friend]

Faye speaks facts at least.

But the other one is brain washed blind athiest who has got some prob in his skull... Reapting and repeating.

[Levanaye Zalmaye]

these are crude, extreme and prejudicial cartoons, that you put up toramana.
they are offensive.
the muslims had a golden age and scientific and other knowledge that they developed is part of the knowledge that is used today.

Do you know that many of the eminent Turkish, Persian, Spanish and Jewish scholars of the Golden Age were being challenged and threatened by the Arab orthodox clergy of the time?

al-Razi couldn't stay in one place because the mullahs wanted his head. Even ibn Rushd was called a heretic because he thought Greek logic was okay and not the work of Sh0yt000n (Satan).

By the way, the Abbasid caliphs of this Golden Era were closer to the amirs of the Gulf States than they were to the Khulafa-e-Rashideen or Amir-ul-Momineen Hazrat Jinab Mullah Omar. Go to any library and read about the lives of these caliphs. An era of science and learning cannot flourish under a theocracy. These guys loved wine, music, concubines, poetry and what not.

[faye]

yes i do but who invented/created h-bomb, agent orange, wmd's, phosphorous bombs, toxic waste that pollutes our oceans, water and air, medicines that create new illnesses?
how many people have been/are killed and maimed by things which are created by science?
all societies, that i have encountered have good and bad points. to make one look as though it is perfect is BS.
check statistics for the mental illnesses, drug addictions,etc of the western, educated, science oriented society.
check the problems with the environment and how many issues environmentalists are trying to get solved.

i understand toramanas personal issues with taliban and co but to make it appear that just science is the perfect alternative is ridiculous when it has so many defects. the educated and science oriented communities are the ones invading and taking advantage of the poor countries.
science and education does not necessarily give people heart and compassion.

blind, uncritical adulation of science, is extremism too.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Do you know that many of the eminent Turkish, Persian, Spanish and Jewish scholars of the Golden Age were being challenged and threatened by the Arab orthodox clergy of the time?

al-Razi couldn't stay in one place because the mullahs wanted his head. Even ibn Rushd was called a heretic because he thought Greek logic was okay and not the work of Sh0yt000n (Satan).

By the way, the Abbasid caliphs of this Golden Era were closer to the amirs of the Gulf States than they were to the Khulafa-e-Rashideen or Amir-ul-Momineen Hazrat Jinab Mullah Omar. Go to any library and read about the lives of these caliphs. An era of science and learning cannot flourish under a theocracy. These guys loved wine, music, concubines, poetry and what not.

Im pretty sure you are wrong about the above.

Per "Free Thinkers of Midievil Islam" by Sarah Stroumsa
http://books.google.com/books?id=9b8...on.%22&f=false

She first goes on to challenge the authenticity of quotes revisionists such as yourself utilize to peg such folks as closet atheists and says that historians of the modern era, west and east cannot authenticate any references or attacks supposedly made by Al Razi on Prophethood for instance.

"Unlike Ibn Al Rawandi, Razi is NOT known to have suffered persecution."

Quiet the contrary; he had deep debates between a faction he belonged to and his intellectual adversaries on topics ranging from mathematics to religious issues.

Avicenna was one who found Razi's views unpalatable and made that clear.

So you present a false dichotomy of orthodoxy in the hands of the Caliphate against "Them" where them was the learned folks.

This is nothing more than your attempt to depict the Marxist struggle against the "opiate of the masses" and validate the movements of the 1900s.

You also confuse cause and effect. Isms of any sort and governmental structures were presumed to have economic impact; but the reality is far more complex. You can be a republic like the US, an empire like Rome, a pulitburo style government under the Soviets, or theocratic and based on complex interactions between world events of the time, goings on with other nation states/empires, or the inherent wealth of your country can propel you forward.

Out of all Western nations, the US is by far the most religious yet the most advanced. In fact, its seedling status was that of a theocrasy in Plymouth bay in which Christmas festivities were banned and biblical punishments were meted out. Evolution of thought and moderation were not fomented by "the enlightenment" but the expected doldrums any nation state undergoes when left well alone in its own development (a simple luxury you refuse to afford Afghans).

The head of the NIH and father of the human genome project, Francis Collins is emblematic of the United States's contradistinction to godless Europe.

http://www.amazon.com/Language-God-S.../dp/1416542744

The issue is that stupid people govern stupidly irrespective of their claimed ideology. An idiot like Islam Karimov, a communist come religious coopter is just such an example. Just because he is an atheist does not correlate 1:1 with supposed prowess in governance.

Shah Waliullah, hated by the communists of central asia, but beloved to Ahmad Shah Abdali also praised Omar Bin Abdul Aziz who made governmental advancements in his own time and established public works.

You also make a failed attempt to link scientific advancement to boozing up. How you correlate the two is nonsensical. Irrespective of the Caliphs boozing up or imbibing - it was not them but members of their public who at times were dual scholars and debaters of religion coupled to professionals in their fields. Ibn Sina was a Hafiz e Quran as well as an accomplished Physician.

Stupid people, whether they be religious bigots, communists, secularists, anarchists, etc will do stupid things.

Smart people, whether they be religious bigots, communists, secularists, anarchists etc will do smart things.

There is no false dichotomy.

[Toramana]

Yes, Americans are religious but in personal sense ---they don't brandish their religion like Ikhwani, Wahabi sectarian marauders and fanatic jehadis do---If that were not the case, fanatics who live in their society but harbor a deep-seated enmity against that country and shows it as well would have long been thrown into Atlantics.

Their system of govt is secular.

Rest of what you've spitted here is the usual gibberish.

[BarakzaiAbdali]

Yes, Americans are religious but in personal sense ---they don't brandish their religion like Ikhwani, Wahabi sectarian marauders and fanatic jehadis of which you are an example do---If that were not the case, a fanatic like you who harbors a deep-seated enmity against that country and shows it as well would have long been thrown into Atlantics.

Their system of govt is secular.

Rest of what you've spitted here is the usual gibberish.

Lol I thought the little tap I gave you the other day was forgiven. I can see you are still mad and hold a grudge.

Yes, the Americans do tolerate a lot and personalize things. But they also dont have traitors amongst them trying to call in foreign powers to oppress their sensibilities and ensure the rural masses do as these traitors say and not as they do.

The Americans were allowed to solve their disputes and even fought a bloody brutal civil war to get to their healthy medium and federalize their decenteralized governance.

Their is a band of red hat scoundrels who are unwilling to fight their own civil war with their black hat adversary and leave the rest of the world out of their mess... thus stunting the evolution of that society and creating mass radicalism and reactionaryism.

They are all too happy to live off their welfare and goodwill and not give a dime back to them. Rather their greatest contribution to them is to lie and convince them that interests somehow merge.

They are beginning to understand though that a bunch of Arabs who want their desert paradise would do well enough to be left alone as the oil in the ground can only be sold to one place.

They are also beginning to collectively wonder why they need to save Malalai and be emotionally blackmailed into this when Molly is starving in the inner city and lives right here.

[faye]

Yes, Americans are religious but in personal sense ---they don't brandish their religion like Ikhwani, Wahabi sectarian marauders and fanatic jehadis do---If that were not the case, fanatics who live in their society but harbor a deep-seated enmity against that country and shows it as well would have long been thrown into Atlantics.
.

you don't consider americas invading other countries supposedly, 'with god on their side', brandishing their religion?

do you think it is democratic to invade other countries, using violence, force, intimidation, and inserting their puppets, to make that country be democratic?

[Toramana]

you don't consider americas invading other countries supposedly, 'with god on their side', brandishing their religion?

do you think it is democratic to invade other countries, using violence, force, intimidation, and inserting their puppets, to make that country be democratic?

faye, the point here wasn't American invasion of other people countries. I am surely not at all in favour of that. The real point here was that Barakzai (oh Makarzai) said America is also a religious country yet advanced. I wanted to tell him, Americans may be religious in personal lives but they keep state and religion separate.

[faye]

i don't think the laws of a country can be separate from the religious beliefs of the people who make those laws.

america is advanced in some ways and not in others, from my way of seeing things. it is also becoming a police state, where anyone can be legally kidnapped and held captive without due process.
like i said, all societies appear to me, to have good and bad points.

what i think is especially ironic, is, it appears that this scientific invention, the computer, is now used by the 'islamists' to garner information about the negative aspects of the western world and are fearful and resistant to being taken over by such a social system.

[Wahe Guru]

these are crude, extreme and prejudicial cartoons, that you put up toramana.
they are offensive.
the muslims had a golden age and scientific and other knowledge that they developed is part of the knowledge that is used today.

faye, "muslims had a golden age" - it might perhaps have been a golden age for Arabs and others who became Muslims and then stopped speaking their own languages and adopted Arabic (e.g. Egyptians) but it was not a golden age for non-Arabs who got their land invaded, conquered or plundered.

This is what the Arab invaders did when invading France for conquest and plunder: "According to one unidentified Arab, "That army went through all places like a desolating storm." Duke Odo (called King by some), collected his army at Bordeaux, but was defeated, and Bordeaux was plundered. The slaughter of Christians at the Battle of the River Garonne was evidently horrific; the Mozarabic Chronicle of 754[49] commented, "solus Deus numerum morientium vel pereuntium recognoscat", ("God alone knows the number of the slain").[50] The Umayyad horsemen then utterly devastated that portion of Gaul, their own histories saying the "faithful pierced through the mountains, trampled over rough and level ground, plundered far into the country of the Franks, and smote all with the sword, insomuch that when Eudo came to battle with them at the River Garonne, he fled."

"When the Muslims burst upon France, the country was ruled by the Franks. The Franks were a Gothic (Germanic) tribe who eventually became the French as we know the French people today. It was another related Gothic clan – the Visigoths, who had been ruling Spain when the Muslims attacked Spain. The tales of mindless Muslim cruelty, savage torture, subterfuge deception and bloodchilling ruthlessness that the Visigoths who fled Muslim occupied Spain told their Frankish clansmen, had contributed to further stiffen the Frankish resolve to defeat the Muslim invaders."

[DaZahroJaam.]

religious delusions versus scientific mockery.
i don't see anything scientific or religious in this thread. you toranmana, represent science as much as afghanistan2010 represents islam. in conclusion, you are both idiotic morons. have a nice day.

[faye]

yes, wahe guru, i know all that and how do you think the europeans got their wealth and the luxury for their golden era, of science and the industrial age?
the point is, that science is the not the be all and end all, as a solution to humanities problems and religion is not the be all and end all of creating humanities problems.